Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[Dan_473]

Hey Dan473,

I will consider that.

My way of looking at "under the Law" was from what Peter said first:

Act 15:10 KJV Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Thinking of "beast of burden" which were animals under the "yoke" or "heavy Harness" for a draft horse. the idea was the same.

Then also where where Jesus mentioned;

Mat 11:28-30 KJV Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. (30) For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


Jesus knew the law was a heavy burden and he knew that those who were entrusted with the responsibility to help His people shoulder the burden did nothing compared to what He does for us. There he said:

Mat 23:3-4 KJV All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. (4) For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

The part I highlighted shows the Pharisees were "Unrighteous Hippocrates" Hence the reason Jesus in Matthew said:

Mat 5:20 KJV For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I don't think Jesus was intimating that the Pharisees are these "uber-righteous" dudes, and you have no hope of getting even close to their holiness. I think he was warning his disciples that while they do hold the office that Moses did, they don't do what they say, you had better do better than they are! Does that sound correct to you?

that sounds correct as far as the Pharisees part goes.

now the particular phrase
under the law
is found only in Paul's letters, once in 1st Corinthians and five times in the book of Galatians.

(many English translations have it a few times in Romans, but that's a different phrase in Greek, the similarity is an accident of translation)

another example
Galatians 4:4. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent out his Son, born to a woman, born under the law.

does this mean that Jesus was born buried by the immense pressure of the law?

I don't think so. I think it means Jesus was born required to do the things in the law.

does that sound correct?

 

[Dino246]

First point, I don't want to frustrate this discussion with hypocrisy. I will pay closer attention.

Second, glad to hear you say that about God's commands. Amazing isn't it? I have said 20 times if I said it once that our "Justification" or "imputed Righteousness" is through Jesus not our works or attempts at righteousness! BUT, I say, and I think you would to, if only you would say it, that once justified, our imputed righteousness allows us to receive the Holy Spirit which renews our hearts/minds to love the moral laws of God. This is what I refer to as "sanctification", a process.

1Co_1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Th_4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th_4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
1Pe_1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

As far as hunger and thirsting after righteousness...since we never reach perfection we must strive as Paul said:

Php 3:11-14 KJV If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. (12) Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. (13) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, (14) I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Forgive me if I came across as if I wanted to "cut the OT from our Bibles" if you point that out I will correct that.

Thanks for the respectful reply.

 

[SimpleGardner]

This is one of the major fallacies among Christians, even though the Scriptures are all there.

1. The Ten Commandments were given primarily to establish God's standard of righteousness and holiness -- firstly for Israel and secondly for all mankind. They are God's moral and spiritual standards, and also underlie many human laws.

2. The Ten Commandments were distilled by Christ into the two GREATEST COMMANDMENTS (both from within the Torah). And both those commandments include the word "LOVE".

3. The Law of Christ consists of obedience to the Ten Commandments by the power of the Spirit. Thus "LOVE is the fulfilling of the Law".

4. For unbelievers, the Ten Commandments bring condemnation and establish that "The whole world is guilty before God". Therefore they drive sinners to the Savior.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. (Rom 7:10)

5. Paul made it crystal clear that the Law (the Ten Commandments) are holy, just, and good.
Wherefore the Law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. (Rom 7:12)

6. The Ten Commandments were not given so that observing them would earn someone eternal life. Sinners are justified by grace through faith, and receive the GIFT of eternal life.
Therefore by the deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the Law is the knowledge of sin. (Rom 3:20)

All of this means that Christians need to keep a proper balance in their thinking about the Ten Commandments. The Holy Spirit writes them on the hearts and minds of those who are born again. God NEVER abolished the Ten Commandments.

 

[SimpleGardner]

that sounds correct as far as the Pharisees part goes.

now the particular phrase
under the law
is found only in Paul's letters, once in 1st Corinthians and five times in the book of Galatians.

(many English translations have it a few times in Romans, but that's a different phrase in Greek, the similarity is an accident of translation)

another example
Galatians 4:4. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent out his Son, born to a woman, born under the law.

does this mean that Jesus was born buried by the immense pressure of the law?

I don't think so. I think it means Jesus was born required to do the things in the law.

does that sound correct?

Well okay, no I don't think Jesus was as burdened as we are or were, BUT:

Heb 4:15 KJV For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Also let's remember what has given us our love for the Moral requirements of God is the Love imparted into our once stony hearts that were replaced with a heart of flesh. So,

Joh 3:34 KJV For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Jesus was the first to go before us in so many ways and He, a faithful High Priest and Shepherd sent to us the Holy Spirit to lead us too into all truth!

 

[SimpleGardner]

Thanks for the respectful reply.

It is my pleasure to see you honored and to find the common ground that we struggled so hard to reveal between us.

 

[preston39]

I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?

And you won't.
Scripture tells, clearly, after repentance, baptism we are to keep G-d's commands

 

[DeighAnn]

Definitely hard to argue with that one.

I have noted from EG that one of his concerns about people who argue the Law is whether they argue adherence to it from a militant "do it or else"/from a spirit of fear or do they obey the law from a spirit of love for one another and God? I only wish that two way discussion started sooner. But, if that is his contention then it is valid and we are in unity.

I argue it from the point of 'WHO AM I, to say a single jot or tittle of Gods Word (not fulfilled by Jesus because "fulfilled" hasn't gone anywhere just changed), has gone ANYWHERE and anyone who teaches it is no longer of any use....".

 

[oldethennew]

just a personal share -

this particular scripture is a very favorite of mine that I always try to recite every night, -
it is so special to me...

as I was practicing reciting this scripture in the beginning, I began to feel offended by the word 'which', I just felt offended -
I know, it sounds 'odd' - anyway, I felt led to 'replace' that word with 'THAT' Love Thy Law, and guess what?
nothing has offended me/us, so far... - only grief and heart-ache for those suffering and whose eyes are yet to be opened...


anyway, i

 

[oldethennew]

I argue it from the point of 'WHO AM I, to say a single jot or tittle of Gods Word (not fulfilled by Jesus because "fulfilled" hasn't gone anywhere just changed), has gone ANYWHERE and anyone who teaches it is no longer of any use to them is in a world of hurt".

=========================================
DA.
just sleep/keep with The Word, hold it close to your heart each and every night, hold it fast and close
to your body, Jesus' Spirit will comfort and teach even while we sleep...

 

[DeighAnn]

just a personal share -

this particular scripture is a very favorite of mine that I always try to recite every night, -
it is so special to me...

as I was practicing reciting this scripture in the beginning, I began to feel offended by the word 'which', I just felt offended -
I know, it sounds 'odd' - anyway, I felt led to 'replace' that word with 'THAT' Love Thy Law, and guess what?
nothing has offended me/us, so far... - only grief and heart-ache for those suffering and whose eyes are yet to be opened...


anyway, i

Is the scripture you are telling us about in another post, and if so could I have the number?

 

[SimpleGardner]

And you won't.
Scripture tells, clearly, after repentance, baptism we are to keep G-d's commands

Greetings Preston39,

I agree with you, and even those who I had many days of heated discourse with do too, but there needs to be an effort to clarify that by gods Grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that turns our stony heart into a heart of flesh that we yearn to keep the law from a position of love for God and Neighbor rather than grudgingly from a position of fear and selfishness.

It seems if we all labor to make that clear we can find unity. I thought I made it clear, but we must go the extra mile to assure others that do not wish to burden those God is leading to Christ in order to lead them to repentance except to agree that they are sinners under the law and must repent.

There is probably more I need to say but gettin tired. Been digging taters today in the heat and am ready to call it a day.

Be well!

 

[oldethennew]

=========================================
DA.
just sleep/keep with The Word, hold it close to your heart each and every night, hold it fast and close
to your body, Jesus' Spirit will comfort and teach even while we sleep...

===================================
POST 1,029.
PS. 119.:165

I was sharing how holding my own personal Bible to my breast every night,
comforted me so much that is was beyond belief - and yes, I did 'out-grow'
having to cuddle with my treasure, but my Faith began to grow and grow'...

 

[DeighAnn]

===================================
POST 1,029.
PS. 119.:165

I was sharing how holding my own personal Bible to my breast every night,
comforted me so much that is was beyond belief - and yes, I did 'out-grow'
having to cuddle with my treasure, but my Faith began to grow and grow'...

I might just bet when ever you are super happy or super sad you still grab ahold of it and hold it close for awhile.

 

[SimpleGardner]

This is one of the major fallacies among Christians, even though the Scriptures are all there.

1. The Ten Commandments were given primarily to establish God's standard of righteousness and holiness -- firstly for Israel and secondly for all mankind. They are God's moral and spiritual standards, and also underlie many human laws.

2. The Ten Commandments were distilled by Christ into the two GREATEST COMMANDMENTS (both from within the Torah). And both those commandments include the word "LOVE".

3. The Law of Christ consists of obedience to the Ten Commandments by the power of the Spirit. Thus "LOVE is the fulfilling of the Law".

4. For unbelievers, the Ten Commandments bring condemnation and establish that "The whole world is guilty before God". Therefore they drive sinners to the Savior.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. (Rom 7:10)

5. Paul made it crystal clear that the Law (the Ten Commandments) are holy, just, and good.
Wherefore the Law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. (Rom 7:12)

6. The Ten Commandments were not given so that observing them would earn someone eternal life. Sinners are justified by grace through faith, and receive the GIFT of eternal life.
Therefore by the deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the Law is the knowledge of sin. (Rom 3:20)

All of this means that Christians need to keep a proper balance in their thinking about the Ten Commandments. The Holy Spirit writes them on the hearts and minds of those who are born again. God NEVER abolished the Ten Commandments.

Greetings Nehemiah6,

Too bad your post wasn't the first post in this thread. Could have won the shortest thread award!

Your summation is thorough, without exaggeration, and from what I see has no caustic effect.

That said, I am convinced from my own experiences that we as a body have so much to learn of the selfless nature of Gods love and the importance of our saviors meekness and lowliness/humility. These are the hallmark characteristics of those who will rule the Kingdom of Heaven as they are the prime factors in selfless love which are the primary displacers of the carnal man, which are the primary catalysts for restoring righteousness here on Earth.

To the attainment MEEKNESS and LOWLINESS, God's will and way.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you think I'm a lawyer!? :O

Thats what I am trying to figure out.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not sure what happened but I did reply to your question. Where it went I don't know...

You don't think too much different than most of us.

The one who was tempted but didn't yield, was blameless/sinless because his actions were tempered by Love for his wife, and by extension love and admiration for his savior who literally died for him.

The second man like the man who didn't commit adultry but wanted to was guilty in his heart, because his heart remains carnal, where all decisions are made out of self love rather than Love for God and Neighbor! At no time did his heart consider his Creators will, His wifes interests and heart nor the woman who was tempting him.

I think you missed the 2nd point.

The 2nd man did not fall and commit adultery. Neither man fell into that sin

Please reread. Because you can not answer why I thought the second man was not completely obedient,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

None the less, I could use some good legal advice and good Christian Lawyers are hard to find. And they could call all the names they want, it all comes down to Heb 4:12

Heb 4: 12 just states that scripture is living powerful and cuts into the heart. The thought you think we do not think this just reeks of ignorance of our faith and to be honest, reeks of arrogance (puffing yourself up)

We have a different view than you, it does not mean we reject scripture..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Definitely hard to argue with that one.

I have noted from EG that one of his concerns about people who argue the Law is whether they argue adherence to it from a militant "do it or else"/from a spirit of fear or do they obey the law from a spirit of love for one another and God? I only wish that two way discussion started sooner. But, if that is his contention then it is valid and we are in unity.

My concern is people taking the law out of context. And imposing a burden on people that people can not keep. I grew up in a lawyer type atmosphere, and have witnessed first hand the damage it can cause, Not only in my own life. But people who walked away from God because why bother, they can’t keep Gods law. They struggle in certain areas, and the only help they get is judgment and shame (Which I do no think was Gods plan at all) and and the other extreme of people who are so puffed up and arrogant, all they do is go around and judge people. Instead of trying to be like Jesus and share the truth that can heal those people. (Sadly we have seen many of these types here in CC. And it is sickening to say the least)

I am not militant, I am passionate, because of this. I pray you understand the difference.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And you won't.
Scripture tells, clearly, after repentance, baptism we are to keep G-d's commands

what happens if you do not keep it as required (perfection) Does God kick you out of his family?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I argue it from the point of 'WHO AM I, to say a single jot or tittle of Gods Word (not fulfilled by Jesus because "fulfilled" hasn't gone anywhere just changed), has gone ANYWHERE and anyone who teaches it is no longer of any use....".

No one has saying Gods word has changed.

See this is what frustrates people.

1. They never listen to others
2. They think they know what others believe
3 The assume it, and are not afraid to say it even when they have been told they are wrong
4. Since their basis of fact is wrong, their end result or thinking is wrong
5. As a result, they argue based on slander or false truths, and have utterly no possibility of having a normal conversation.
6. They get mad at people trying to correct them. Which makes it worse.