Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
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Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Did the Lord fail?

Or did He fulfill the law?


This is a pretty important point isn't it? At least Deade was honest about it. He thinks the Lord failed.

I wonder how many more of the legalists and judaizers who try to put people under the law think the Lord failed?

It must be all of them because they all post the same scripture with the same understanding.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Oh ho ho! Yeah, take a few deep breaths for me out there!

I can picture that now. Be safe. Sun is intense on the lakes this time of year!

Well let me say it's been my pleasure threading with you brother.

Hopefully I will be here when you return.

Oh, what a great time to meditate on the Word!

SG

p.s. Never been on the lakes personally. I always wondered what they smell like. Are they salty, brackish? Just wondering.
No salt. Smell like fresh air. Some of the freshest air I have ever experienced, and I have been to many places, even out on the ocean.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
Hay Dan_473,

No, not there with you on that.

After the Baptism of/in the Holy Spirit we must yield to the leading of the Holy Spirit. For me ut us certainly not all about the law, but the moral laws of God are part of that for me. For Justification? No! but as Paul said:

2Ti 3:16-17 KJV All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


Don't let this one trip you up.

Thanks Dan :)
In your view then, the phrase
Under the law
Means the same thing in every place it's used except for this one place?

It doesn't trip me up, I study the law for wisdom, but I don't see that I am required to keep it.

I'm not aware of anything in the scriptures that talks about just keep these parts of the law and set aside the others. Did I miss something? How, in your view, do you separate the moral laws from the rest?

Deuteronomy 12: 32. Whatever thing I command you, that you shall observe to do: you shall not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
I am still interested if anyone wants to talk about how, in their view, they separate the moral laws from the other laws.

For example,
Deuteronomy 21: 12. then you shall bring her home to your house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;

Is the head shaving ceremonial or moral?
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
113
John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

I have just finished confessing and repenting of my sins. I am aware of my transgressions by the law written upon my heart. I have asked for forgiveness and through the Blood of Christ, and as promised I have been washed clean. Thank you Jesus for your sacrifice upon the Cross that allows me to be cleansed, directly through your works. This gift I cherish and keep in my heart always. My sins are blotted out and are remembered no more. The veil is torn and I know in this very moment God hears my prayers. I am without sin and will strive to stay this way as I proceed towards perfection.

I am a sinner. Though I crucified my flesh driven life descending into the water and rose a new creation in a Spirit led life at my baptism, accepting into my life the Lord Jesus as Son and Savior of God, I know that it was going to be a work on my part to come to perfection.

Just as Jesus did.
Who in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He feared
Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered
And being make perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him

He fulfilled all prophecy that was written by the prophets about His coming, He fulfilled all ceremonial law concerning blood sacrifice.
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
I read it as:
Think not that I have come to unyoke the law or the Prophets, I have not come unharness but to make full, give them a living form and fill any that may have been lacking.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? James 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, James 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? James 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. James 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. James 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. James 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? James 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? James 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. James 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? James 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. James 2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

For anyone I have offended I pray you understand it comes from a place of love of the Living Word and offending I apologize for but not my beliefs.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

I have just finished confessing and repenting of my sins. I am aware of my transgressions by the law written upon my heart. I have asked for forgiveness and through the Blood of Christ, and as promised I have been washed clean. Thank you Jesus for your sacrifice upon the Cross that allows me to be cleansed, directly through your works. This gift I cherish and keep in my heart always. My sins are blotted out and are remembered no more. The veil is torn and I know in this very moment God hears my prayers. I am without sin and will strive to stay this way as I proceed towards perfection.

I am a sinner. Though I crucified my flesh driven life descending into the water and rose a new creation in a Spirit led life at my baptism, accepting into my life the Lord Jesus as Son and Savior of God, I know that it was going to be a work on my part to come to perfection.

Just as Jesus did.
Who in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He feared
Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered
And being make perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him

He fulfilled all prophecy that was written by the prophets about His coming, He fulfilled all ceremonial law concerning blood sacrifice.
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
I read it as:
Think not that I have come to unyoke the law or the Prophets, I have not come unharness but to make full, give them a living form and fill any that may have been lacking.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? James 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, James 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? James 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. James 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. James 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. James 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? James 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? James 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. James 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? James 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. James 2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

For anyone I have offended I pray you understand it comes from a place of love of the Living Word and offending I apologize for but not my beliefs.
So if you did not confess your sins. Would you have been dirty, thus unqualified for salvation?
I know she has me on ignore. Can someone else ask this important question?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,472
13,785
113
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
I read it as:
Think not that I have come to unyoke the law or the Prophets, I have not come unharness but to make full, give them a living form and fill any that may have been lacking.
I respect your sincere and heartfelt post. Your perspective on Jesus' fulfillment of the Law is interesting, and I think it is deeply flawed.

If Jesus came to make the Law "full, giving it a living form and" [adding] "what may have been lacking", how is it that we follow the Law? How do we present ourselves at the temple when there is no temple? How do we present offerings when there are no Levites to receive them? How do we get a priest to give a "clean/unclean" medical examination when there are no priests?

Unfortunately, I find consistently that those who encourage Christians to follow the Law do not demonstrate understanding of the unified nature of the Law. They point to selected commands and ignore others as though the Law were a smorgasbord subject to our personal preferences.

In light of the rest of Scripture, the only way to interpret Jesus' statement logically, that I can see, is that He meant "fulfill" in the sense of "to make complete, to satisfy fully" as one does in making the final payment on a mortgage. It is finished.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
113
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Did the Lord fail?

Or did He fulfill the law?


This is a pretty important point isn't it? At least Deade was honest about it. He thinks the Lord failed.

I wonder how many more of the legalists and judaizers who try to put people under the law think the Lord failed?

It must be all of them because they all post the same scripture with the same understanding.
If I am not mistaken the "judaizers and legalists" were upset because of the new doctrine " Jesus being the only way to salvation", and no longer could you attain it through the law. Is there more to that? Because on this point right here, I will scream it out for the world to hear "I BELIEVE THAT THE ONLY WAY TO OBTAIN SALVATION IS THROUGH FAITH IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST" not a jot or tittle of the law can provide that for me. What else do the legalists and judaizers stand upon?
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
113
I respect your sincere and heartfelt post. Your perspective on Jesus' fulfillment of the Law is interesting, and I think it is deeply flawed.

If Jesus came to make the Law "full, giving it a living form and" [adding] "what may have been lacking", how is it that we follow the Law? How do we present ourselves at the temple when there is no temple? How do we present offerings when there are no Levites to receive them? How do we get a priest to give a "clean/unclean" medical examination when there are no priests?

Unfortunately, I find consistently that those who encourage Christians to follow the Law do not demonstrate understanding of the unified nature of the Law. They point to selected commands and ignore others as though the Law were a smorgasbord subject to our personal preferences.

In light of the rest of Scripture, the only way to interpret Jesus' statement logically, that I can see, is that He meant "fulfill" in the sense of "to make complete, to satisfy fully" as one does in making the final payment on a mortgage. It is finished.
In your opinion, once Jesus "satisfied fully" the law, what happened to it?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
If I am not mistaken the "judaizers and legalists" were upset because of the new doctrine " Jesus being the only way to salvation", and no longer could you attain it through the law. Is there more to that? Because on this point right here, I will scream it out for the world to hear "I BELIEVE THAT THE ONLY WAY TO OBTAIN SALVATION IS THROUGH FAITH IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST" not a jot or tittle of the law can provide that for me. What else do the legalists and judaizers stand upon?
The bolded part would be error. No one could EVER attain salvation through the law.

Sadly. Many jews throughout the new churches also thought sanctification came form the law also.

Both are in error.

The law had one point, the bring people to a knowledge of sin, so they could come to the grace by being pointed to Christ.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
In your opinion, once Jesus "satisfied fully" the law, what happened to it?
It was fulfilled.

Which means through grace No longer could it condemn those who have been freed from it. Because until then, everyone was condemned or “cursed” by it. Because no one could fulfill it.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
113
me also. but, that does not answer the question. Shabbat or not? requirement or not?
I believe that my rest in Christ answers that question. I believe my answer lies with in the Spirit of the Law. It does for me. I hope you can respect that. Are you looking to find out if I believe it is within the letter of the law? Do you? Is it a requirement for you or not?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I believe that my rest in Christ answers that question. I believe my answer lies with in the Spirit of the Law. It does for me. I hope you can respect that. Are you looking to find out if I believe it is within the letter of the law? Do you? Is it a requirement for you or not?
Is it really that hard to give an answer without all this side stepping?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
me also. but, that does not answer the question. Shabbat or not? requirement or not?
What is so hard about this question?

Is it a requirement?

Possible answers

1. YES, If someone is not following the sabbath they are breaking the law. And living in sin. So if they have not already lost it. They will lose salvation if they continue. Or they were never saved to begin with.

2. No. But they will suffer great loss and miss out on many blessings which God has bestowed on those who take a day of rest. Which was for mans benefit not his own.

Its easy folks. When you refuse to answer these things, you must have something to hide. Or are not really secure in your own faith. That should open YOUR EYES that something is wrong!!
 
May 1, 2019
1,336
744
113
I am still interested if anyone wants to talk about how, in their view, they separate the moral laws from the other laws.

For example,
Deuteronomy 21: 12. then you shall bring her home to your house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;

Is the head shaving ceremonial or moral?
So if you did not confess your sins. Would you have been dirty, thus unqualified for salvation?
I know she has me on ignore. Can someone else ask this important question?

Hey EG, You are asking a "what if" to someone who did the opposite of your what if. There is so much there you could have praised, why not do that?

Safe travels
 
May 1, 2019
1,336
744
113
What is so hard about this question?

Is it a requirement?

Possible answers

1. YES, If someone is not following the sabbath they are breaking the law. And living in sin. So if they have not already lost it. They will lose salvation if they continue. Or they were never saved to begin with.

2. No. But they will suffer great loss and miss out on many blessings which God has bestowed on those who take a day of rest. Which was for mans benefit not his own.

Its easy folks. When you refuse to answer these things, you must have something to hide. Or are not really secure in your own faith. That should open YOUR EYES that something is wrong!!

Hey EG, We must all beware of "Contentious Spirits" They are easy to cooperate with! The can bid us through our passionate positions.

Heb 12:14-15 KJV Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: (15) Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
113
I respect your sincere and heartfelt post. Your perspective on Jesus' fulfillment of the Law is interesting, and I think it is deeply flawed.

If Jesus came to make the Law "full, giving it a living form and" [adding] "what may have been lacking", how is it that we follow the Law? How do we present ourselves at the temple when there is no temple? How do we present offerings when there are no Levites to receive them? How do we get a priest to give a "clean/unclean" medical examination when there are no priests?

Unfortunately, I find consistently that those who encourage Christians to follow the Law do not demonstrate understanding of the unified nature of the Law. They point to selected commands and ignore others as though the Law were a smorgasbord subject to our personal preferences.

In light of the rest of Scripture, the only way to interpret Jesus' statement logically, that I can see, is that He meant "fulfill" in the sense of "to make complete, to satisfy fully" as one does in making the final payment on a mortgage. It is finished.
That law is written on your heart, Jesus said "you have read" but .... these are the changes from stone to heart. I don't understand the question how do we follow the Law? except follow the 2 commandments Jesus gave because they encompass all the laws and the Prophets, so be a good Christian, love your neighbor as you love yourself. Let your light shine so that all those who see you ask "What does he have that I haven't got" "What is his secret" and that secret is "Being saved" and it is offered to you to.
There may be no physical temple, but as you are a new creature of the Spirit, it is a spiritual temple, not made with hands.
The offerings you present are not physical either, think spiritual, you are no longer of this world, though you still are in it. Jesus rent that veil, we no longer go through Priests, we now go through repentance and being washed clean go straight to the Father.
I am sorry but your questions all seem to focus on the physical, when "you crucify your flesh" you become a Spiritual led being and it is that Spirit that leads you. Your spiritual eyes are opened and you realize this life in the flesh is but a moment for you to decide who you will follow. The physical things are all vanity.

The unified nature of the law is the law written in stone not the law written on your heart. There is forgiveness now. Perfection can not be attained by us that is why we put our trust in the Lord. His blood allows us to be forgiven in our UN perfectness. That is the beauty of being a Christian. We are set free from trying to attain the unattainable. God through the gift of the Cross now allows us to go right to Him, THE BLOOD shed washing us clean for the one on one with Him. We still have to try. We still have to work towards perfection. We still need to be the best we can be so that others see the beauty of the Creator and His creation and the gift of eternal life.

The final payment is that never again does there need to be blood shed for the forgiveness of sins. God allowed for ONE LAST PERFECT LAMB to shed His blood for the forgiveness of sins past and of future sins repented of. Gone are the priests and the ceremonies, and the ordinances and the statutes, and the killing of animals. When you read what that all entailed, didn't it strike you how very very very blessed we are now, only having to drop down on our knees repent, and ask for forgiveness, and with Jesus blood sacrifice, the opening up the door to our Father?

I hope I have answered your questions. Glory be to God
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Hey EG, You are asking a "what if" to someone who did the opposite of your what if. There is so much there you could have praised, why not do that?

Safe travels
It’s a simple question. Because so many people believe they would be lost. Does she? I want to know not assume

Why would she not want to answer?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Hey EG, We must all beware of "Contentious Spirits" They are easy to cooperate with! The can bid us through our passionate positions.

Heb 12:14-15 KJV Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: (15) Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
I am not sure how asking questions is contentious

What it contentious is not answering them or answering them with a mocking tone like she did

Once again why do you not ever say anword to them ?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,472
13,785
113
That law is written on your heart, Jesus said "you have read" but .... these are the changes from stone to heart. I don't understand the question how do we follow the Law? except follow the 2 commandments Jesus gave because they encompass all the laws and the Prophets, so be a good Christian, love your neighbor as you love yourself. Let your light shine so that all those who see you ask "What does he have that I haven't got" "What is his secret" and that secret is "Being saved" and it is offered to you to.
There may be no physical temple, but as you are a new creature of the Spirit, it is a spiritual temple, not made with hands.
The offerings you present are not physical either, think spiritual, you are no longer of this world, though you still are in it. Jesus rent that veil, we no longer go through Priests, we now go through repentance and being washed clean go straight to the Father.
I am sorry but your questions all seem to focus on the physical, when "you crucify your flesh" you become a Spiritual led being and it is that Spirit that leads you. Your spiritual eyes are opened and you realize this life in the flesh is but a moment for you to decide who you will follow. The physical things are all vanity.

The unified nature of the law is the law written in stone not the law written on your heart. There is forgiveness now. Perfection can not be attained by us that is why we put our trust in the Lord. His blood allows us to be forgiven in our UN perfectness. That is the beauty of being a Christian. We are set free from trying to attain the unattainable. God through the gift of the Cross now allows us to go right to Him, THE BLOOD shed washing us clean for the one on one with Him. We still have to try. We still have to work towards perfection. We still need to be the best we can be so that others see the beauty of the Creator and His creation and the gift of eternal life.

The final payment is that never again does there need to be blood shed for the forgiveness of sins. God allowed for ONE LAST PERFECT LAMB to shed His blood for the forgiveness of sins past and of future sins repented of. Gone are the priests and the ceremonies, and the ordinances and the statutes, and the killing of animals. When you read what that all entailed, didn't it strike you how very very very blessed we are now, only having to drop down on our knees repent, and ask for forgiveness, and with Jesus blood sacrifice, the opening up the door to our Father?

I hope I have answered your questions. Glory be to God
You caught the gist of my questions: they all focus on the physical. That's exactly what the Judaizers did in Paul's day; they didn't get that, in Christ, we are free from the Law. It is no longer our schoolmaster, because we are complete in Christ. Turning back to the Law to "work towards perfection" is what Paul addressed in Galatians 3:3, and he wasn't advocating it.

Those who advocate obedience to specific parts of the Law (Sabbath, tithing, special foods, etc.) for any reason are focused on the wrong thing and are effectively treating the finished work of Jesus as unfinished.

To answer your earlier question, the Law stays where it is; unfulfilled for those who don't believe in Christ. For those who do, it is part of Scripture, useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness.