The Tabernacle in the Wilderness

[Wansvic]

and for the record:

THE BLOOD OF CHRIST WASHES OUR SINS AWAY WHEN WE ACCEPT HIM AS OUR SAVIOR. NOTHING ELSE CLEANSES FROM SIN

wansvic and ANYONE else who claims otherwise is about as wrong as anyone in the entire world has ever been

disputing a wrong teaching does not mean hatred....it illustrates that those who know the truth will stand up for it and correct the wrong teaching

water symbolizes and is metaphorical for many things in scripture but it saves exactly no one at all

you have to twist and misinterpret and choose odd verses to teach otherwise

I quit posting in this thread some days back but we cannot emphasize enough how wrong this oneness teaching is...and that is not the only thing they are wrong on either

I never denied that anything other than the blood of Jesus washes away sins. The question is when is the blood applied.

 

[bluto]

The message of truth the gospel of salvation includes the instructions given at Pentecost. So yes, once you hear the entire story and instructions, and act upon them you will be sealed by the Holy Ghost; via the initial infilling.

After Cornelius received the Holy Ghost Peter commanded that he and the others be water baptized as well.

Paul instructions given on Pentecost were to be followed by every one even as many as the Lord thy God shall call. God is still drawing people and will continue to do so until the very last day. The instructions included the need for water baptism and there is no record of it having stopped. Over 20 years after Pentecost Paul administered water baptism in Jesus' name to the Ephesus disciples. (Acts 19)

If you know of any scriptures that state that water baptism is no longer necessary please share them.

Your still misrepresenting what I'm telling you missy. Water baptism is not a part of the gospel. One is saved first by hearing the gospel which 1 Corinthians 14;1-4 clearly outlines. It is a legitimate command that we "SHOULD" get water baptized but, it is "NOT" necessary to the point if you don't get water baptized after believing one is lost for all eternity. I tried to explain to you at least 2 o3 times that it is impossible for some people to get wather baptized after making a confession of faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

And btw, I am already stating that water baptism is not necessary for the reasons I just outlined. And don't you think I notice how you use words in sentences to make water baptism a flat out mandatory condition or your not saved? What you said here: "water baptism IS NO LONG NECESSARY." I have "NEVER" said it is no longer necessary, so quit putting words in my mouth. It's a command and should be obeyed "if possible." It is not always possible for some people so yes or no, are those people lost forever wansvic?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[bluto]

You do greatly err in your understanding of the epistles to the Spirit-filled churches …
Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
All the epistles are written to the Spirit-filled Pentecostal churches of the first century - the one and only faith and doctrine
of the NT - and thus all scriptures from the epistles are addressed to churches wherein all disciples are water baptised by
full immersion for the remission of their sins [repentance and confession of faith in Jesus] AND are also baptised in the
Holy Spirit with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues.
These disciples are the saints of the NT world that the epistles are all written to and for.

To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 1:7
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Corinthians 1:2
But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
1Corinthians 7:17
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Corinthians 14:33
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jude 1:3

Ye cannot use the scriptures from the epistles to preach against Pentecostal faith and discipleship.

While you were typing this to me I looked up your cultic organzation and the following is what I found. https://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?14,1118,13762 How long have you been involved in this "brainwashing" system?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[bluto]

I never denied that anything other than the blood of Jesus washes away sins. The question is when is the blood applied.

What an "asinine" statement? When do you say the blood of Jesus was applied? What do you think Jesus mean't when He said on that cross, "It is finished?"

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[SpoonJuly]

While you were typing this to me I looked up your cultic organzation and the following is what I found. https://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?14,1118,13762 How long have you been involved in this "brainwashing" system?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

It is obvious to me that he has been brainwashed by this cult.

 

[TLC209]

It does not teach salvation comes at water baptism

And this person has attacked many,, so I suggest you think before you judge others and try to defend this person.

Im not judging anyone. I think you are misusing the word. I was giving my opinion as to what the woman was doing. Its unbecoming of anyone to behave that way. If we say we know Christ then there is no excuse for that behavior. Prayer and some realignment is needed.

And for anyone else who doesnt think so.. Read Titus 2. Corrections are imperative.

 

[bluto]

This seems like a personal attack on Wansvic. I didnt hear him speak anything about oneness in his original post. Maybe you do not like him from previous posts? But this is pretty heavy attack ur firing at him. Along with others.

His post was fine. And the bible does teach that water baptism comes from God. It is not a man made command. And as far as oneness, that belief is erred but even if someone is in error we shouldnt attack them. You cant win anyone over by throwing stones. We should walk in love and the Spirit of truth will lead the person to see what is true apart from what is not. Youre only hurting your view point by attacking him. God wants us to win people over by love and His word.

His Word shows everything wansvic pointed out. Wansvic views on Holy Spirit and oneness is another thread possibly.

Maybe you didn't hear "HER" speak about oneness in her orginal post because you don;t know what the oneness pentecostals teach? Some of us can tell right away what they teach just by what they say, did that ever occur to you? And how did you come to the conclusion that some of us are being mean to her?

Here is love incarnate talking, was He mean or was He throwing stones? "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocFor you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of ded men's bones and all uncleanness. You serpents you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell?." I shortened this up from Matthew 23:27-36 just to show that there is nothing wrong with confronting people with the truth without being accused of not loving the person.

Look what Jesus says at Matthew 23:37, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to ther! How often I wanted to gather your children to gether, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, AND YOU WERE UNWILLING."

The point I'm making, "there is a difference in what I say about a person and how I feel about them." Think before you speak to avoid making yourself look foolish.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[TLC209]

Maybe you didn't hear "HER" speak about oneness in her orginal post because you don;t know what the oneness pentecostals teach? Some of us can tell right away what they teach just by what they say, did that ever occur to you? And how did you come to the conclusion that some of us are being mean to her?

Here is love incarnate talking, was He mean or was He throwing stones? "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocFor you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of ded men's bones and all uncleanness. You serpents you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell?." I shortened this up from Matthew 23:27-36 just to show that there is nothing wrong with confronting people with the truth without being accused of not loving the person.

Look what Jesus says at Matthew 23:37, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to ther! How often I wanted to gather your children to gether, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, AND YOU WERE UNWILLING."

The point I'm making, "there is a difference in what I say about a person and how I feel about them." Think before you speak to avoid making yourself look foolish.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Take your own advise. You just said I was foolish. I dont need to tell you what the bible says about calling your brother a fool. You seem to know enough bible to teach the flock.

Pentecostal oneness is in error.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The Word has been since the beginning. Everything was made thru the Word. Made by Him and For Him. The Word was made flesh, who we know as Jesus. But Jesus has been since the beginning with His Father. Only the Son has seen the Father. The Holy Spirit is Gods Spirit who we are given as a promise to be heirs with Christ.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 17:
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is the Word. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus came in His Fathers name, this is the name He declared to us. This is the name we baptize in. The pentecostals oneness believe that because we baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, that it means Jesus Christ is the Father but that is error. Jesus is the name. It would be like junior. Senior and junior. We met junior. But if You seen junior you seen senior. Because Jesus does not operate outside of the will of the Father. He is the perfect manifestation of God in the flesh. That is why He did not see it as robbery to be in the Form of God and equal with God. Even though the Father is greater than He is.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I never denied that anything other than the blood of Jesus washes away sins. The question is when is the blood applied.

you are lost somewhere between faith and works

this is actually startling in it's depth of denial of the effectiveness of the blood of Christ and your heretical insistence that water washes away our sin

it's worse than I thought

maybe you should have listened when you were told not to answer me

oops

 

[Waggles]

While you were typing this to me I looked up your cultic organzation and the following is what I found.

This backsliders blog of 2003 is a delight to other reprobate backsliders and cessationists who love to hate the scriptures.
Watchout Australia!!!
Posted by: Galakiah ()
Date: March 10, 2003 10:06PM

I can go online a find nasty murmurings against any church or group ... thank Satan for the internet and free hate speech.

 

[bluto]

Take your own advise. You just said I was foolish. I dont need to tell you what the bible says about calling your brother a fool. You seem to know enough bible to teach the flock.

Pentecostal oneness is in error.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The Word has been since the beginning. Everything was made thru the Word. Made by Him and For Him. The Word was made flesh, who we know as Jesus. But Jesus has been since the beginning with His Father. Only the Son has seen the Father. The Holy Spirit is Gods Spirit who we are given as a promise to be heirs with Christ.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 17:
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is the Word. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus came in His Fathers name, this is the name He declared to us. This is the name we baptize in. The pentecostals oneness believe that because we baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, that it means Jesus Christ is the Father but that is error. Jesus is the name. It would be like junior. Senior and junior. We met junior. But if You seen junior you seen senior. Because Jesus does not operate outside of the will of the Father. He is the perfect manifestation of God in the flesh. That is why He did not see it as robbery to be in the Form of God and equal with God. Even though the Father is greater than He is.

Well you are being foolish. You just admitted the oneness pentecostals are in error and yet your giving her "thumbs up" on what she post (which is in error) and telling us were "picking" on her. There is a "precedent" on what I'm telling you. The Apostle Paul at Galatians 3:1 called the Galatian believers foolish.

Moreover, the Apostle Paul at Galatians confronted the Apostle Peter at Galatians 2:11-14 for his "hypocrisy" (vs13). All I'm saying is to think before you speak instead of jumping in head first whithout knowing what is going on. And btw, I know full well who the "Word" is and what the oneness pentcostals teach.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[bluto]

A picture of New Testament water baptism can be seen in the Tabernacle in the wilderness that God commanded Moses to construct per His specific instructions.

In scripture there are two distinct water applications. The first is a complete washing for entrance into the priesthood. Afterward those who minister must keep their hands and feet spiritually clean by being washed in the water of the Word of God.

A foreshadow of water baptism can be seen in God’s command to Moses to wash Aaron and his sons. They were to be washed prior to being clothed with priestly garments:

“And thou shalt anoint the laver and his foot, and sanctify it. And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water. And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest's office. And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats:” Exodus 40:11-14

God then instructed the Israelites to wash at the laver in the courtyard before entering the tabernacle. Aaron and his sons were forbidden to enter into the Holy Place without washing at the laver. In fact, they were warned of the consequences for disobedience. They would surely DIE.

Exodus 30:18-21 “Thou shalt also make a laver of brass, and his foot also of brass, to wash withal: and thou shalt put it between the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, and thou shalt put water therein. For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat: When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD: So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.”

As stated above, death would occur if one tried to forego God’s command to wash at the laver. The washing of the natural hands and feet reflects a spiritual reality. We are to do God’s work (with hands) and walk in God’s ways (with feet) in accordance with His Word.

After the initial cleansing had taken place, Moses poured oil over the head of Aaron the high priest. This action parallels the new covenant infilling of the Holy Ghost:

Leviticus 8:12 “And he poured of the anointing oil upon Aaron's head, and anointed him, to sanctify him.”

After being washed, and clothed, Aaron and his sons were marked with blood:

“And thou shalt take the other ram; and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the ram. Then shalt thou kill the ram, and take of his blood, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of Aaron, and upon the tip of the right ear of his sons, and upon the thumb of their right hand, and upon the great toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood upon the altar round about.” Exodus 29:19-20

Note the significance of how the sacrificial blood was to be applied:

Not only did Moses sprinkle the blood on the altar and upon Aaron and his sons, along with the anointing oil, but each man was marked with blood on the right earlobe, the right thumb, and the right big toe. This was a token reminder that they must listen to God's Word, do God's work, and walk in God's way. The blood speaks of sacrifice, so the priests became "living sacrifices" in the service of the Lord. (The Bible Exposition Commentary: Old Testament )

Many believe that the blood is applied immediately when one accepts Jesus as their personal savior. However, take the time to read the twenty-ninth chapter of Exodus. What you will find is a sequence of events that parallel the New Testament salvation components.

1. Candidate accepts priestly calling.

2. Candidates are washed and adorned with holy garments. Ex 29:4

3. Oil is poured over the head of the priest. Ex 29:7

4. The priestly office is secured. Ex 29:9

5. The blood is applied after obedience to God’s commands above. Ex 29:20

After stating how the priestly office is secured, the Word instructs us about our Christian walk and how to honor God with various types of offerings.

The New Testament parallel is as follows:

1. Acceptance of Jesus sacrifice and repentance

2. Water Baptism (receive the priestly garments)

3. Infilling of the Holy Ghost

4. Priestly office secured

5. Blood of Jesus sacrifice is applied

The following is a debate between Dr.Walter Martin, Cal Beisner and two Oneness Pentecostals that took place on the John Ankerberg show years ago. It's 3 hours long but well worth watching and learning.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Wansvic]

you are lost somewhere between faith and works

this is actually startling in it's depth of denial of the effectiveness of the blood of Christ and your heretical insistence that water washes away our sin

it's worse than I thought

maybe you should have listened when you were told not to answer me

oops

My response was to correct what you think I believe. Otherwise, I have no interest in commenting on you personally or your posts.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

My response was to correct what you think I believe. Otherwise, I have no interest in commenting on you personally or your posts.

how many train wrecks are you going to be responsible for?

you have no interest because you cannot refute the actual proof from scripture...as you aptly showed in the tongues thread

you seem a bit arrogant today?

 

[Wansvic]

I can go online a find nasty murmurings against any church or group ... thank Satan for the internet and free hate speech.

Sad Waggles, but so, so true. Just keep sharing scripture. Our only job is to plant and water. God is faithful to give the insight to those who will receive.

Continue to be Blessed!

 

[Wansvic]

The following is a debate between Dr.Walter Martin, Cal Beisner and two Oneness Pentecostals that took place on the John Ankerberg show years ago. It's 3 hours long but well worth watching and learning.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Evidence provided from the word should be the focus not individual denominational beliefs. It is very sad when people accept personal opinions over what is shown in the biblical record.

Instead of checking the Internet and another's opinion, people should adhere to what the word says on the subject; do a search and find out what the disciples originally instructed:

Jude 3-5
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

FROM THE OP:

The New Testament parallel is as follows:

1. Acceptance of Jesus sacrifice and repentance

2. Water Baptism (receive the priestly garments)

3. Infilling of the Holy Ghost

4. Priestly office secured

5. Blood of Jesus sacrifice is applied


now how can someone receive the Holy Spirit if they are not actually saved?

you will never receive the Holy Spirit unless you already are a believer in Christ

this, is what many here are in such disagreement about and what the op tries to persuade others of, as the truth

salvation is not being presented here. in fact the op and at least one other person have saved themselves apparently and God has graciously given them His Spirit after they have gone through their salvation ceremonies

well, Jesus has risen from the grave without their help and all the OT High Priests are dead and no offering for sin is needed any longer

I think perhaps we are seeing a very heretical preaching of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.....in other words, no gospel according to the actual gospel

it seems cult like in it's narrow and absolute definitions, exclaiming salvation ONLY to those who adhere to it's bizarre applications

they begin with a mashup of OT scripture which is then applied to the NT and incorporated into salvation

in other words, Jesus blood is not good enough. you have work to accomplish and then, finally, after all your effort, receive cleansing...but of course you actually already had your sins washed away with h2o and Christ's sinless blood is your reward for all your activity

yes, h2o

the power to save to the uttermost

 

[bluto]

So let me get this straight waggles? If a person puts their faith or trust in Jesus Christ for salvation and it is impossible for them to get water baptized are they lost to hell? I ask this same question to wansvic and I'm wondering why she did not answer, so what do you say? Yes of no?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[TLC209]

Well you are being foolish. You just admitted the oneness pentecostals are in error and yet your giving her "thumbs up" on what she post (which is in error) and telling us were "picking" on her. There is a "precedent" on what I'm telling you. The Apostle Paul at Galatians 3:1 called the Galatian believers foolish.

Moreover, the Apostle Paul at Galatians confronted the Apostle Peter at Galatians 2:11-14 for his "hypocrisy" (vs13). All I'm saying is to think before you speak instead of jumping in head first whithout knowing what is going on. And btw, I know full well who the "Word" is and what the oneness pentcostals teach.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Just because she believes in an error doesnt mean she is in complete error about everything. No one is right about everything. She was talking about being cleansed and the process we go thru as born again Christians. And she was spot on. You just dont like her denomination and choose to attack her for it.

I didnt know she was teaching something pentecostal? She was speaking the Word. Not all of the pentecostal church is just full of error. You cant deem a whole group just because of an error. Jesus doesnt do that, so why should we? Are you greater than Jesus? No one is above His master.

As for giving thumbs up im here to exhort and encourage those who need and deserve it. Im going to support my brothers and sisters in any aspect I can, regardless of what denomination they attend. This isnt a time to seperate as believers but to unify. The devil has much ground for Christians to fight among eachother. Pentecostal or not, she has the Holy Spirit. So thats enough for me. And even to the ones who do not have the Holy Spirit they have hope, so why give up on them. We once were lost ourselves. Im no one better than anyone else just because I have the Holy Spirit. I want others to experience Gods goodness, not roadblock them and push them down.... thats not Christ like.

 

[Wansvic]

So let me get this straight waggles? If a person puts their faith or trust in Jesus Christ for salvation and it is impossible for them to get water baptized are they lost to hell? I ask this same question to wansvic and I'm wondering why she did not answer, so what do you say? Yes of no?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I apologize for not answering you specifically. However, I answered this question in the past. The biblical record clearly instructs all to submit to water baptism so everyone should pursue it. The word however is silent about the consequences of not complying. Only God knows one's reason for not obeying the command and will be the ultimate judge.

Jesus said that water baptism was to be taught and administered. (Matt. 28:19) And that He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16:16) Knowing this and knowing what He said would judge everyone in the last day we should all submit to it.

"...the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." John 12:48-50