Not By Works

[Eli12]

This is what Scriptures says about it:

1Cor 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a sounding [piece of] brass or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophesying and am acquainted with all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to transplant mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all.
4 Love is long-suffering and kind. Love is not jealous, it does not brag, does not get puffed up, 5 does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. 6 It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe. 12 For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Without love a person is just NOISE to God and men, not matter how singer this person thinks he/she is ... just wannabes. There is one over here who seems to look for all kind of not-loving-expressions to insult others ... a whole noisy-vocabulary, that I don't want to learn when studing English

 

[FollowHisSteps]

The bible states clearly we can judge all things by the word....especially false dogmas that lead to hell

Hang on a minute. Everyone except the elect are going to hell.
Do you really think any dogma can deceive the elect?

Obviously your view of God is so weak He cannot keep His own, but needs you to defend His gospel
expose these evil false teachers and lead the elect to heaven.

Oh? You believe God does everything and does not need any help. You believe we can never be
taken out of His hand. You believe we can never lose ones faith.
Well your behaviour denies what you claim to believe, rather you appeart to believe through revelation
of ideas your life changes, and you fight tooth and nail against your enemies to defend this.

So if God needs your help, warrior, where has your all conquering, lets just rest in Him, God gone?
Have you not spent years defending your position and fighting, justifying it because of all the people
you have brought out of darkness. I praise God I just share the light, and the Lord does the rest, as
it is His word and He alone brings new birth from heaven.

5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
John 3
God bless you.

 

[VCO]

The parable of the sower could be seen another way than 4 pictures of individuals.

It could be the process of truth piercing through to repentance from self ways to being born from above in one person. I can truthfully say I was all those things.

Also, to do any work to keep salvation or to remain saved is from the motive of fear. And that makes God the hard taskmaster.

The Parable of the Sower are obvious to this farm boy.


The Seed sown on the Hard Beaten Path, Will NEVER HAVE No FRUIT.

The Seed sown on Rocky Ground, will die out, because the roots never reach the water level, therefore IT WILL NEVER HAVE FRUIT.

The Seed sown on Among Thorns the roots die out, because of Thorns Choke them out, therefore IT TOO WILL HAVE NO FRUIT.

The SEED sown on GOOD SOIL HAS PLENTY OF FRUIT, SOME Thirty, Sixty, or even a Hundred Fold.


ONLY THE SOIL THAT IS GOOD, PRODUCES ANY FRUIT. BY THERE FRUIT SHALL YOU KNOW THEM.

The other Three soils that are never going to be a FRUIT bearing plants, they are three different forms of NONE BORN AGAIN, plants.


Matthew 7:20 (NRSV)
20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.

 

[dcontroversal]

The Parable of the Sower are obvious to this farm boy.


The Seed sown on the Hard Beaten Path, Will NEVER HAVE No FRUIT.

The Seed sown on Rocky Ground, will die out, because the roots never reach the water level, therefore IT WILL NEVER HAVE FRUIT.

The Seed sown on Among Thorns the roots die out, because of Thorns Choke them out, therefore IT TOO WILL HAVE NO FRUIT.

The SEED sown on GOOD SOIL HAS PLENTY OF FRUIT, SOME Thirty, Sixty, or even a Hundred Fold.


ONLY THE SOIL THAT IS GOOD, PRODUCES ANY FRUIT. BY THERE FRUIT SHALL YOU KNOW THEM.

The other Three soils that are never going to be a FRUIT bearing plants, they are three different forms of NONE BORN AGAIN, plants.


Matthew 7:20 (NRSV)
20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.

Based upon experience I would disagree with your had fast rule.....I have had gardens that had areas of rocky soil and also allowed the weeds to grow due to being busy, they still bear fruit, albeit stunted, small and or few in number........

 

[VCO]

Based upon experience I would disagree with your had fast rule.....I have had gardens that had areas of rocky soil and also allowed the weeds to grow due to being busy, they still bear fruit, albeit stunted, small and or few in number........

OKAY they listen to the DETAILED VERSION.

Matthew 13:3-9 (ESV)
3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow.
4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them.

5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil,
6 but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away.

7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them.

8 Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
9 He who has ears, let him hear.”

I know You have spiritual ears to hear with.

I know You had more SOIL, and more WATER, and I will bet FERTILIZER TO.

These only had the sower, and NOTHING ELSE, depending on mother nature for everything else, AND NO MENTION OF ANY FRUIT ON ANYONE OF THOSE TOP THREE.

 

[dcontroversal]

OKAY they listen to the DETAILED VERSION.

Matthew 13:3-9 (ESV)
3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow.
4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them.

5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil,
6 but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away.

7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them.

8 Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
9 He who has ears, let him hear.”

I know You have spiritual ears to hear with.

I know You had more SOIL, and more WATER, and I will bet FERTILIZER TO.

These only had the sower, and NOTHING ELSE, depending on mother nature for everything else, AND NO MENTION OF ANY FRUIT ON ANYONE OF THOSE TOP THREE.

Yep the context is salvation and spiritual fruit.....HAHA and in all fairness choked them does not say NO fruit and the context is clear...GOOD soil produces an abundance......POOR SOIL produces POOR fruit, but produces nonetheless HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH

 

[VCO]

Yep the context is salvation and spiritual fruit.....HAHA and in all fairness choked them does not say NO fruit and the context is clear...GOOD soil produces an abundance......POOR SOIL produces POOR fruit, but produces nonetheless HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH

No, the context sounds to me they are choked out, or withered away, before any fruit can form.

No fruit, not a Christian.

 

[Eli12]

I still don't get this: why some try to differentiate between fruits and works, or between salvation and rewards ... It is convenient for their "salvation" understanding, I guess ... because in the Scriptures there is NOT any difference: rewards have to do with salvation, and fruits have to do with works ... no matter how much effort some try to put on believing they are not.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved
over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and
debauchery in which they have indulged.
2 Cor 12

2 I already gave you a warning when I was with you the second time. I now repeat it while absent:
On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others,
3 since you are demanding proof that Christ is speaking through me. He is not weak in dealing
with you, but is powerful among you.
4 For to be sure, he was crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God's power. Likewise, we are weak
in him, yet by God's power we will live with him to serve you.
5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that
Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
6 And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test.
2 Cor 13

Paul is blunt. It is great shame and grievous to be in unrepented sin as a believer.
It is so bad, it suggests one is not of the faith. Paul is not saying you are evil unbelievers and will
be thrown out rather, if there is faith in you, you will repent. And if not, sin with 2 or 3 witnesses
will cause expulsion from the community.

11> But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother
but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler.
With such a man do not even eat.
1 Cor 5

Now some on forums such as these would suggest it is heresy to behave as Paul is instructing.
Unfortunately these people are the heretics and apostates, sinners caught in sin and refusing to
repent, and with two or three witnesses, we should have nothing to do with them.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Easy believism and OSAS has led some to believe they are safe in Christ despite an unrepentant
heart and sinful lifestyle. Yes we are secure in Christ as long as we walk with Him, in His ways
and repent of the sins we have committed and know love growing in our hearts of flesh.

The way of knowing we are forgiven, loved and empowered to walk with Jesus, takes real faith.
Passive faith that recognises our failure and puts it on God to sort it out, while Jesus declares
part of the healing is walking in righteousness and stopping sinful behaviour.

The reason for the existence of easy believism and OSAS is changing our hearts, being transformed
is not instant or simple, it is about honesty, integrity, humbleness, repentance, and losing ones life
in the world while gaining a life with Jesus.

Some things in our lives will take a lifetime to put into context and win over. The cost is high, but
the cost is also to know our Lord, and be His child.

 

[Smooth]

Easy believism and OSAS has led some to believe they are safe in Christ despite an unrepentant
heart and sinful lifestyle. Yes we are secure in Christ as long as we walk with Him, in His ways
and repent of the sins we have committed and know love growing in our hearts of flesh.

The way of knowing we are forgiven, loved and empowered to walk with Jesus, takes real faith.
Passive faith that recognises our failure and puts it on God to sort it out, while Jesus declares
part of the healing is walking in righteousness and stopping sinful behaviour.

The reason for the existence of easy believism and OSAS is changing our hearts, being transformed
is not instant or simple, it is about honesty, integrity, humbleness, repentance, and losing ones life
in the world while gaining a life with Jesus.

Some things in our lives will take a lifetime to put into context and win over. The cost is high, but
the cost is also to know our Lord, and be His child.

How many “unrepentant Christians” do you know? Here’s a clue: It’s not difficult to count to zero.

 

[Smooth]

"If a man thinks himself to be religious but does not bridle his toungue but deceives his heart, this mans religion is worthless." "Without Love I am nothing."

Jesus did not come to give us religion; he came to restore our relationship with our Heavenly Father. It’s about relationship, not religion.

 

[Smooth]

Here is how insidious it is. They have made statements questioning my salvation, and now so do you. I have not questioned my salvation, nor have I asked them a question about my salvation. But you see, because I don't believe as they believe, to them I can't be saved. You have to ask yourself, is that intentional? What is my church background, how do I know I am saved, was my baptism correct for them? There are all question of the earthy man and its effects can be seen in the scripture you posted for me. Now here are a few I posted that are in question

You have serious anger issues. Your anger/hatred is definitely not righteous indignation. You better check your heart.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

How many “unrepentant Christians” do you know? Here’s a clue: It’s not difficult to count to zero.

I wish this was true. Paul talked about brothers and sisters in Christ who were unrepentant and
we should not even eat with them

11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother
but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler.
With such a man do not even eat.
1 Cor 5

What is mind numbing is it does not matter to some what is the reality in church or even on these
forums, they have their view, and everyone else is wrong or lying.

If one has ever been in church leadership you will know many fall into sin, some repent while others
have to leave the fellowship. But there will always be some who write the sentence above, but then
deluded people are everywhere which is why Gods judgement is coming. God bless you

 

[Smooth]

Some may think I am upset by easy believist people.
I simply believe God calls us to follow Him, to have working faith, and if you do not have working faith,
have you met Jesus who I have met or even listened to His words.
Everyone makes their choices, and Amen, you reap what you sow, and my heart calls out to those who
would miss the power of the cross and the purity of the indwelling Holy Spirit, to taste and see that
the Lord is good, Amen. God bless you all as you desire to listen our follow the King.

“For God so loved the world that He gave His own Son, that whoever HAS WORKING FAITH shall not perish but have everlasting life.” Yeah, my Bible DOESN’T say that either.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

You have serious anger issues. Your anger/hatred is definitely not righteous indignation. You better check your heart.

They great thing about emotional awareness, every human being has anger, but only a few know
how to handle it. The best way of handling provocative people is not know their provocation and
then responding with the light, and understanding.

Hatred is not anger. And I understand how standing on Christ and His word should create respect
among His people, and rightly so, unless one is not addressing His people, which takes some learning
to see the heart and types of responses given, which in social terms are very provocative, but in the Holy
Spirit, nothing of merit. And what these people do not realise, we are always checking our hearts before
the Lord and walking with a clear conscience, which is the only way to walk with the King of Kings, Amen.

 

[Smooth]

How many “unrepentant Christians” do you know? Here’s a clue: It’s not difficult to count to zero.

I wish this was true. Paul talked about brothers and sisters in Christ who were unrepentant and
we should not even eat with them

11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother
but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler.
With such a man do not even eat.
1 Cor 5

What is mind numbing is it does not matter to some what is the reality in church or even on these
forums, they have their view, and everyone else is wrong or lying.

If one has ever been in church leadership you will know many fall into sin, some repent while others
have to leave the fellowship. But there will always be some who write the sentence above, but then
deluded people are everywhere which is why Gods judgement is coming. God bless you

There are many believers who stray. Jesus refers to such people as lost sheep. But what does Jesus do about such sheep? He leaves the 99 to go find and receive the lost one. Those who belong to Christ will always belong to Christ for He will not forsake His children.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

For God so loved the world that He gave His own Son, that whoever HAS WORKING FAITH shall not perish but have everlasting life.” Yeah, my Bible DOESN’T say that either.

8 “Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of testing in the wilderness.
9 “There your fathers tested me and tried me, and they saw my works for forty years.
10 “Therefore, I became provoked at that generation and said, ‘Their hearts are always wandering and they have not known my ways.’
11 “As I swore in my anger, ‘They will never enter my rest!’”
Heb 3

33 The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.
34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin."
Exodus 32

Working faith is walking in the ways of God after we have repented.
Clearly if some have never repented, they have not begun to walk so there is nothing to
lose as they have not actually begun anything

 

[FollowHisSteps]

There are many believers who stray. Jesus refers to such people as lost sheep. But what does Jesus do about such sheep? He leaves the 99 to go find and receive the lost one. Those who belong to Christ will always belong to Christ for He will not forsake His children.

Let us look at the shepherd who goes searching

4 "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?
5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders
6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.'
7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Luke 15

Points.
1. Sheep gets lost, ie falls away
2. Sheep found ie repents and comes back to faith and being in the body

A sheep is only found if they repent, sorrow for sin and a desire to walk in faith and love with Jesus.

The odd idea is a believer who falls into sin, goes away from Christ is still in Christ, so has never been lost
and does not need finding, so repentance is not required and there is no rejoicing in heaven because lost
or found they are saved.

What is driving this interpretation is fear of falling away, because they do not know Jesus or have security
other than in the special verses which they must quote and requote as if this makes the meaning more real.

Even odder, all christians are still in sin, so therefore cannot fall into sin or away, because that is how they
live every day. In the last few months, enough of this group have said I am wrong to hold we are cleansed
and purified and made Holy, rather we are just covered sinners, who make do day to day.

I mean the creator of the universe came to earth so we can just make do?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I still don't get this: why some try to differentiate between fruits and works, or between salvation and rewards ... It is convenient for their "salvation" understanding, I guess ... because in the Scriptures there is NOT any difference: rewards have to do with salvation, and fruits have to do with works ... no matter how much effort some try to put on believing they are not.

Its easy

Your saved or your not saved

If your not saved, You can not bear fruit, You will not recieve any rewards

If your not saved, and trying to work to be saved, Those works are futile.

If you claim your saved, But think you have to work to maintain salvation, Those works to are futile

If your saved, you will have varying degrees of works in your christian life. When you do works of the spirit, you will be rewarded. But even a saved person can do works which will not bear fruit, from which their will be no reward

I hope you are open, and see the difference.