Hades / The Grave

[Ahwatukee]

.
The story told in Luke 16:9-31 quotes Abraham a number of times. Well, if
Abraham didn't actually say the words that he's quoted as saying; then Luke
would be guilty of reporting fake news, i.e. we would have good reason to
suspect that Luke was a man of questionable integrity who couldn't be
trusted to tell the truth about people; and nobody's reputation, not even a
sacred patriarch's reputation, was safe in his hands.
_

Very true! In this event, the Lord, most likely prior to His appearing in the flesh, revealed an actual event that He himself saw, which took place between Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man in the spiritual realm of Hades.

It gives us some insight to what takes place after the death of the body. It reveals that there is a real place of punishment in flame and that once there, there is no returning.

It shows us that after the death of the body, the spirit is conscious and aware, with all of its sense. This is why I get so frustrated with those who insist on turning this event into a parable, which gets rid of that information for some other meaning. To be clear, if we were able to go down to Hades, we would see that great chasm and would hear the torment of the wicked. Hades would be just as Jesus described it, with all of the unrighteous conscious, aware and in agony.

That place and the lake of fire is exactly what the Lord is trying to keep human beings out of. It is why he died in our place. It is the reason why He throughout His word is warning us to watch and be ready.

 

[kneemailer]

Those who were resurrected, coming out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection, are not apart of the first fruits. All of those people who resurrected did so in the mortal bodies, just like Lazarus and Jairus' twelve year old daughter. They all died again with their spirits departing and going to be with the Lord where they wait from heaven for the resurrection.

I just cited all of the evidence contrary to such position. Address the texts cited.

Again, you have a misunderstanding of the word "spirit" and seem to be misapplying also 1 Peter 3:9, which is speaking of those persons, very much alive in the days of Noe while he, the preacher of righteousness was preaching, under the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Peter 3:1-22; Genesis 6:1-22, 7:1-24 [see also previous and after Genesis 8:1-22, 9:1-29]; Job 22:15-17; Jude 1:14-15.). A totally differing context, which may be studied if you desire.

Those that were resurrected at Jesus own resurrection, were very much glorified and return to Heaven with Jesus as per the texts already cited. As for 1 Peter 3, that is another matter entirely.

 

[kneemailer]

So far, no one but the Lord has resurrected in an immortal and glorified body being the first fruits of the first resurrection.

This is also not correct. Moses was permanently resurrected and has a glorified body even before the resurrection of Jesus, as per (there are also others also gloried and translated without seeing death such as Enoch and Elijah, we may look at those as needful):

Matthew 16:28 - Matthew 17:1-13; Mark 9:1-13; Luke 9:27-37; Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9; 2 Peter 1:1-21;

Rom_5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

Moses died for his sins, and was buried by God (Jesus) and the angels present with Him. Then a bit later, Moses is resurrected, as we see in Jude 1:9, and then later appears with Elijah at the mount of transfiguration "in glory". Death had reigned from Adam until this time, for there was no one who had died wand was resurrected permanently, until Moses.

 

[kneemailer]

Those at the Lord's coming, would be referring to the church and are next. Those who came of their tomb's after Jesus resurrected and went into the city, they grew old and died again

That is not what any text in all of scripture say.

Ephesians 4:8, refers to said group:

Ephesians 4:8 - Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Notice, He (Jesus) "led captivity (having been bound by the grave) captive" as "he ascended on up on high". This is seen also in Psalms 24, speaking of the victory and persons coming back with Jesus. This is seen again in Psalms 98:1-3, in connection with Colossians 2:15.

Ephesians 4:8 is citing Psalms 68 in its proper context:

Psalms 68, a Psalms of David, sang about the Son of David, Jesus Christ, and His victory over sin and the grave:

Psalms 68:8 - The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: even Sinai itself was moved at the presence of God, the God of Israel.

Psalms 68:17 - The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

Psalms 68:18 - Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Psalms 68:20 - He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.

Psalms 68:21 - But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses.

Psalms 68:21 - references Genesis 3:15, and notice the connection to harvest, firstfruits, wavesheaf and the "seed" that began it all.

As it is written:

Isa_26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

 

[kneemailer]

Strong's Concordance

You only quoted part of Strong's, and as I stated my definition doesn't come from Strong's I only cited them for those that look for definition outside of scripture (private interpretation):

" †ᾅδης háidēs, hah'-dace; from G1 (as negative particle) and G1492; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:—grave, hell. " - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G86&t=KJV

The webpage also says, "... the grave, death, hell ..." in "Outline of Biblical usage".

 

[kneemailer]

"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

Notice, the verse you cited, includes the "firstfruits" (plural) before "those" that are "then at His coming", all the remaining (which will be in two resurrections, a 'special' and the Great First).

Jesus, being a part of the 'firstfruits' (plural) as Head of humanity arisen, and He as the Priest, took the "wavesheaf" of those resurrected with Him ("captivity captive"), and presented them before the Father, alive, in Heaven, as type foretold, and as prophecy, already cited, stated.

 

[kneemailer]

Regardless of all you listed above

What you seem to be saying, is that, 'inspite of all the evidence contrary to the position you have taken as I gave from scripture, you will not believe it', is that an accurate summation? If so, why? Simply saying so, is not refuting a position, nor giving a better presentation of stated texts. Explain, why you do not agree.

 

[kneemailer]

The church is next and is what we should all be looking forward to.

There are three resurrections coming, actually:

[special] Special Resurrection – Daniel 12:2,12; Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7, 14:13 &c

[01] First Great Resurrection – 1 Samuel 2:6; Job 14:12-14, 19:26; Hosea 13:14; Matthew 22:31; Mark 12:18,23,25; Luke 14:14, 20:35,36; John 5:29a, 6:25,28,29,39,40,44,54, 11:24,25; Acts 4:2, 17:31,32, 23:6, 24:15a,21; Romans 6:5,8, 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:12,13,16,20,21,23,29,32,35,42,43,52-55; Philippians 3:10,11; Colossians 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Timothy 2:18, 4:1; Hebrews 6:2, 11:35; Revelation 20:5b,6; [All the Holy "Clouds" of Angels [the “reapers”] with Him] Psalms 68:17, 104:3; Isaiah 66:15; Matthew 13:39,49, 16:27, 24:30, 25:31,51, 26:64; Mark 8:38, 13:27; Luke 9:26, 21:27; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:16-17; Hebrews 1:7; Revelation 1:7, 12:7

There will even be a resurrection of the wicked to come, and they shall not enter Heaven:

[02] The Second Great Resurrection, Damned, Condemnation, Wicked – John 5:29b; Acts 17:31, 24:15b; Revelation 20:5a;

These do not include any of the 'firstfruits' that were resurrected already in the days of Jesus Christ's crucifixion, which texts already explain what happened to them. The stated position you have taken, that they all died again, as Lazarus, is not found anywhere in scripture. You are reading that into the text, but from where exactly has yet to be seen. As stated, you seem to be misapplying 1 Peter 3.

 

[kneemailer]

the fact remains that Hades which Jesus said is down under the earth,

I have no quarrel with "hades', 'hell' being "under the earth", since all who are buried are "under the earth", as "in the tomb (grave)":

Job_21:32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

The word "hell" is an old word, and it means 'a pit, a hole in the earth, to dig down, a grave, etc' as the phrase is found in old literature, "We went a helling for potatoes." Iow, we went to dig up from the ground (making a hole) potatoes.

 

[kneemailer]

This is currently where the spirits of the unrighteous dead go.

As stated, you have a misunderstanding of the word "spirit".

Ecc_12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

In this context, it (spirit) is the breath of life that doesn't go down into the earth, but instead, goes back to Heaven, and to God from which it originated.

Job_27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

If, I were to use your definition of 'spirit', then Ecclesiates 12:7 would have every such 'spirit' returning unto God in Heaven, as it makes no distinction between a so called good spirit or so called bad spirit. The occultists do use the text in said way along with the definition of 'spirit' you seem to be carrying.

 

[kneemailer]

Hades should never be translated as "grave." The word "qeber" (Hebrew) and Mnemeion (Greek) are the words that are used when referring to grave, tomb or sepulcher.

This is a mistake of languages. One is koine Greek ([h]ades) and the other Hebrew. As I have shown previously, when the Hebrew is translated to the Greek, the words are equal:

Hos 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Massoretic Text OT Hebrew Hosea 13:14 miYad sh'ôl ef'Dëm miMäwet eg'älëm éhiy d'väreykhä mäwet éhiy qä†äv'khä sh'ôl nocham yiŠätër mëëynäy

Hos 13:14 ἐκ χειρὸς ᾅδου ῥύσομαι αὐτοὺς καὶ ἐκ θανάτου λυτρώσομαι αὐτούς· ποῦ ἡ δίκη σου, θάνατε; ποῦ τὸ κέντρον σου, ᾅδη; παράκλησις κέκρυπται ἀπὸ ὀφθαλμῶν μου.

 

[kneemailer]

The example of Hades as the realm of departed spirits can be found in the event of the rich man and Lazarus

Again, as stated, is a parable in a series of parables., with very much symbolic language, which all may be identified as needful.

Those who die (in general, exceptions already noted, Enoch, Elijah, Moses, firstfruits and Jesus (only those 5)) remain in the tomb as already stated, and it is not until their resurrection at the first great resurrection that they are rewarded.

Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Rev_22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Abraham is dead and still awaiting his resurrection as per Hebrews:

"(Abraham, vs 8) died in faith, not having received the promises. ...", vs 13

Even the Jews which understood resurrection, knew this (John 8:53). Notice, in vs 16 they have not yet reached the "heavenly".

 

[kneemailer]

This is why I get so frustrated with those who insist on turning this event into a parable, which gets rid of that information for some other meaning.

It is a parable, in the midst of parables, and even may be demonstrated to be so from the context. Shall we look together that all may see the truth?

 

[kneemailer]

That place and the lake of fire

"That place", being the grave (or prison of death) and "lake of fire" (the total and final destruction of all sin, sinners and death, and even the grave), as it is written (Eze. 28:19; Malachi 4:1,3).

 

[TheLearner]

.
The comments and questions below are relative to Luke 16:19-31.

How is it that the rich man and Abraham were able to see from their own
grave into each other's grave? Do dead people have X-ray vision? Do they
have any vision at all let alone X-ray?

Do dead people actually have the ability to communicate with other dead
people? You'd think that dead people would be deaf and mute seeing as how
they're deceased and no longer sentient.

What is the nature of the barrier that existed between Abraham's grave and
the rich man's grave? The story suggests dead people could, and would, visit
one another's graves were it not for the barrier separating them.

From whence did the rich man assume that Lazarus could fetch water? Was
Lazarus' grave adjacent to an aquifer or some such?

The story suggests that Abraham and Lazarus shared the same grave, i.e.
Lazarus' corpse was laid to rest stacked on top of Abraham's corpse.

The story tells that Lazarus' pall bearers were angels. Is that common, or
was Lazarus' funeral a special event?
_

I think it is just natural vision. We do not know how far they are from each other. He may just be using knowledge or memory.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I just cited all of the evidence contrary to such position. Address the texts cited.

Again, you have a misunderstanding of the word "spirit" and seem to be misapplying also 1 Peter 3:9, which is speaking of those persons, very much alive in the days of Noe while he, the preacher of righteousness was preaching, under the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Peter 3:1-22; Genesis 6:1-22, 7:1-24 [see also previous and after Genesis 8:1-22, 9:1-29]; Job 22:15-17; Jude 1:14-15.). A totally differing context, which may be studied if you desire.

Those that were resurrected at Jesus own resurrection, were very much glorified and return to Heaven with Jesus as per the texts already cited. As for 1 Peter 3, that is another matter entirely.

You are wrong! No one but the Lord so far has resurrected in an immortal and glorified body. Every other resurrection was in the same mortal body with the same sinful nature and who eventually died again. That includes those who came out of the tombs after the Lord's resurrection.

However, you are free to believe that if you want, but you are not going to convince me otherwise. The church is the next group to take part in the first resurrection. After that, the male child/144,000, the two witnesses and then the great tribulation saints and the OT saints of Israel at the end of the age will be resurrected.

To be clear, any human who is currently in heaven is in their spiritual form waiting for the resurrection. No man, (except for Christ), has yet received an immortal and glorified body.

Blessing in Christ!

 

[Ahwatukee]

This is also not correct. Moses was permanently resurrected and has a glorified body even before the resurrection of Jesus, as per (there are also others also gloried and translated without seeing death such as Enoch and Elijah, we may look at those as needful):

Matthew 16:28 - Matthew 17:1-13; Mark 9:1-13; Luke 9:27-37; Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9; 2 Peter 1:1-21;

Rom_5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

Moses died for his sins, and was buried by God (Jesus) and the angels present with Him. Then a bit later, Moses is resurrected, as we see in Jude 1:9, and then later appears with Elijah at the mount of transfiguration "in glory". Death had reigned from Adam until this time, for there was no one who had died wand was resurrected permanently, until Moses.

Moses has not yet resurrected and there is no scripture to support that. When Moses and Elijah appeared before the Lord, it was not in a resurrected body. This is only an assumption on your part.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You only quoted part of Strong's, and as I stated my definition doesn't come from Strong's I only cited them for those that look for definition outside of scripture (private interpretation):

" †ᾅδης háidēs, hah'-dace; from G1 (as negative particle) and G1492; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:—grave, hell. " - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G86&t=KJV

The webpage also says, "... the grave, death, hell ..." in "Outline of Biblical usage".

When people die, their bodies are buried or cremated, but their spirits depart from the body and either go to their respective places, either in the presence of the Lord or down into Hades. Wherever the word "Hades" is used, it is referring to that place under the earth where the spirits of the unrighteous go. Hades is not the grave.

Save yourself the trouble of typing. I have done all of these Biblical studies for 45 years. I have already gone over any topic that you can bring up and have made a right conclusion based on all related scriptures.

==============================================
Characteristics of:

Is down under the earth - Gen.37:35, 42:38, 44:29, 44::31, Num.16:30, 16:33, Deut.32:22, 1 Sam.2:6, 2 kings 2:6, Job 11:7-8, 17:16, Ps.30:3, 86:13, Prov.9:18, 15:24, Isa.5:14, 14:9, 14:11, 14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17, Ezk.32:21, Ezk.32:27, Mt.11:23, Lk.10:15,

Has multiple levels - Deut.32:22, Job 11:7-8,

Referred to as the pit - Job 17:13, Ps.30:3, Prov.1:12, Isa.14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17

Has Chambers - Prov.7:27

Has Gates/Bars - Job 17:16, Isa.38:10, Mt.16:18

A place of torment in fire – Lk.16:23-24

Is a literal entity representing the same location – Rev.6:8, 20:14



Sheol (sheh-ole') The underworld (place to which the spirits of people descend at death)

Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates -- grave, hell, pit.


Hades (hah'-dace) The unseen world:

hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
Fiction can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that,
though untrue; are plausible; viz: realistic.

Fantasy can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that are
not only untrue; but implausible; viz: unrealistic.

For example: a story about a wooden boy like Pinocchio is unrealistic; while
a story about a boy with autism is realistic. The difference between Pinocchio
and the autistic boy is that the one is compatible with normal reality; while
the other is far removed from normal reality.

I have yet to read even one of Jesus Christ's parables that could not possibly
be a real-life story. They're all actually quite believable-- banquets,
stewards, weddings, farmers sowing seed, pearls, lost sheep, fish nets,
women losing coins, sons leaving home, wineskins bursting, tares among the
wheat, leavened bread, barren fig trees, the blind leading the blind, et al.

Now; if Christ had told a story that alleged the moon was made of green
cheese; we would have good reason to believe that at least that one was
fantasy; but none of them are like that. No; there's nothing out of the
ordinary in his parables. At best; Christ's parables might qualify as fiction;
but never fantasy because none of them are so far removed from the normal
round of human experience that they have no basis in reality whatsoever.

Luke 16:19-31 is commonly alleged to be a parable; which of course implies
that the story is fiction; and some would even say fantasy. But the parable
theory has a fatal flaw. Abraham is not a fictional character: he's a real-life
man; the father of the Hebrew people, held in very high esteem by at least
three of the world's prominent religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
And he's also the friend of God (Isa 41:8). I simply cannot believe that Jesus
Christ-- a man famous among normal Christians for his honesty and integrity
--would say something untrue about a famous real-life man; especially
about one of his Father's buddies.

And on top of that, the story quotes Abraham a number of times. Well; if the
story is fiction, then Jesus Christ is on record testifying that Abraham said
things that he didn't really say; which is a clear violation of the
commandment that prohibits bearing false witness.
_

 

[kneemailer]

but you are not going to convince me otherwise.

Then nothing more can be done. You have closed your ears and shut your eyes, as others before you. I did not say so, you said so.