The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

Absolutely · Aug 26, 2019

The ac demands worship
He orders all humans marked.
It's not a traffic ticket for refusal. It is decapatation.
That is WHY the jews are ushered away.
All humans on the planet take the mark or die.
Where do you think the innumerable number come from standing before the throne?
Why did they have dirty robes?
They are decapatated by the ac
Millions of them
What is a innumerable number?
Billions?

Ahwatukee · Aug 27, 2019

KJV1611 said:

No, the symbols of the sun, moon and stars are the keys to understanding who woman is. For she is clothed with all of these.

Ok so you say the symbolism goes like this - since the woman is associated with the sun, moon and stars, then she must be Israel.

Well, you have to include all of the symbols, not just one of them. You can't just pick one and then brush the other aside. And no, the woman is not heavenly Jerusalem. You did not provide one scripture to back up that the woman is representing the New Jerusalem. As stated before, you have to look at all the other information in the context. For example:

"And the dragon stood before the woman as she was about to give birth, ready to devour her child as soon as He was born."

So, if the woman is figurative representing the new Jerusalem, then the scripture above would saying that the dragon/Satan would be standing before the new Jerusalem to kill the new Jerusalem's child as soon as it was born. This doesn't make any sense.

In addition, it would also mean that the new Jerusalem would be giving birth to a male child? again, doesn't make any sense

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days."

Likewise, if the woman is figurative of the new Jerusalem, it would mean that the New Jerusalem would be fleeing out into the wilderness where she will be cared for 1260 days. That also doesn't make any sense. At least your consistently wrong.

I could go on with all the other characteristics of the woman and the dragon, but I think you get the point. All of the related information has to match up and make sense. And your claim that the woman represents the new Jerusalem does not fit any of the criteria.

The woman is Israel

The dragon is Satan

The woman/Israel figuratively gives birth to a male child which is a collective name for the 144,000 who come out of Israel

The male child is caught up to God and His throne

The woman/Israel flees out into the wilderness and is cared for during that last 3 1/2 years

All of the above makes sense.

Ahwatukee · Aug 27, 2019

GaryA said:

I don't need to Gary, as I have been studying end time events for the last 45 years.

When you see the church gone and a political figure make a seven year treaty with Israel, then you will know that everything that I have been telling you was correct. Until then it is just your interpretation against mine.

Ahwatukee · Aug 27, 2019

GaryA said:

Of course you would say that because it destroys your claim. Do you have the ability for logical reasoning? Look at the scripture that you wrote above:

"And I saw another great and wonderful sign in heaven: seven angels, having seven plagues--the last, because in them the wrath of God was completed."

I look at all the version and they pretty much convey the same meaning. It seems to me that the purpose of you and many others is specifically to reject the truth. You can't comprehend or discern anything.

The seven last plagues are last because with them (the seven plagues) God's wrath is completed.

Seven last plagues = completion of

Ahwatukee · Aug 27, 2019

GaryA said:

That's exactly what it means. Did you forget how to read and put information together? Seven last plagues = God's wrath complete

I'm sorry, but the scripture is clear. I'm using the Interlinear which is the literal.

"And I saw another great and wonderful sign in heaven: seven angels, having seven plagues--the last, because in them the wrath of God was completed."

Seven last plagues = Completion of God's wrath.

In further support of this fact, after the 7th bowl is poured out a voice from the throne in the temple says the following:

"Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came from the throne in the temple, saying, “It is done!" That is, God wrath is done.

Below are some of the other major translations which convey the same meaning:

New International Version
I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues--last, because with them God's wrath is completed.

New Living Translation
Then I saw in heaven another marvelous event of great significance. Seven angels were holding the seven last plagues, which would bring God’s wrath to completion.

English Standard Version
Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.

Berean Study Bible
Then I saw another great and marvelous sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven final plagues, with which the wrath of God is completed.

Berean Literal Bible
And I saw another great and wonderful sign in heaven: seven angels, having seven plagues--the last, because in them the wrath of God was completed.

New American Standard Bible
Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished.

New King James Version
Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.

King James Bible
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Christian Standard Bible
Then I saw another great and awe-inspiring sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven last plagues; for with them God's wrath will be completed.

Contemporary English Version
After this, I looked at the sky and saw something else that was strange and important. Seven angels were bringing the seven last terrible troubles. When these are ended, God will no longer be angry.

Good News Translation
Then I saw in the sky another mysterious sight, great and amazing. There were seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last ones, because they are the final expression of God's anger.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Then I saw another great and awe-inspiring sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven last plagues, for with them, God's wrath will be completed.

International Standard Version
I saw another sign in heaven. It was both spectacular and amazing. There were seven angels with the seven last plagues, with which God's wrath is completed.

NET Bible
Then I saw another great and astounding sign in heaven: seven angels who have seven final plagues (they are final because in them God's anger is completed).

New Heart English Bible
I saw another great and marvelous sign in the sky: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them God's wrath is finished.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And I saw another great and wonderful sign in Heaven: Angels which had the seven last plagues with them, for in them the anger of God is finished.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I saw another sign in heaven. It was spectacular and amazing. There were seven angels with the last seven plagues which are the final expression of God's anger.

New American Standard 1977
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And I saw another sign in the heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the wrath of God.

King James 2000 Bible
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the wrath of God.

American King James Version
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

American Standard Version
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having seven plagues, which are the last, for in them is finished the wrath of God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and wonderful: seven angels having the seven last plagues. For in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Darby Bible Translation
And I saw another sign in the heaven, great and wonderful: seven angels having seven plagues, the last; for in them the fury of God is completed.

English Revised Version
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having seven plagues, which are the last, for in them is finished the wrath of God.

Webster's Bible Translation
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Ahwatukee · Aug 27, 2019

Absolutely said:

To be clear, are you saying the church is going to be on the earth and exposed to God's wrath? And if so, have you done a thorough study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments? The reason I ask is because with just the culmination of the first four seals and the 6th seal (a fourth and a third, respectively) that would equal well over half the earths population killed and that within the first 3 1/2 years. And that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities that result from the bowl judgments. This supported by when Jesus said, "unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved," i.e. no one would be left alive on the earth.

That said, because of the severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the mandatory mark, God would have to put a force field around every believer. This world during that time is not going to be livable. Regarding this, Lot was taken out of the area. Likewise, Noah was saved on the ark. However, since the entire world will experience God's wrath, there would be no Ark for us to get into and nowhere else in the world to go to get away from those plagues of wrath. Here's an example of what I am talking about:

"Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass."

If a third of the earth and trees are burned up, then there will undoubtedly be fatalities. For you can burn up a third of the earth and trees without affecting the inhabitants of the earth. Is God going to have all of the church on the other 2/3's of the earth that aren't burnt?

"Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed."

The great mountain burning with fire sounds like John was seeing an asteroid, which would be on fire if it was coming through the atmosphere. The reasons that a third of the creatures in the sea die and a third of the ships are destroyed, will be the result of that object hitting in the ocean which will produce gigantic Tsunami waves. The question then is, how many people on those ships. The other question is, how many people are going be in those cities, towns, villages, etc., which are sitting on the coasts and even 100 miles inland on that body of water?

If for example that object was to hit in the Atlantic, the Tsunami waves would destroy all of the cities on the east cost of South America, the United states, Canada, Iceland, Greenland, the west coasts of Ireland, Scotland, Spain and Portugal, the west cost of Europe and Africa, all the way down to Antarctica. How many fatalities would that involve? And these aren't going to be 33ft Tsunami waves, but more like hundreds of feet high depending on how fast the object is traveling, its angle and its size.

I'm just trying to paint a picture here for you of the severity of these plagues of wrath. People seem to down-play their severity. I have only mentioned two of the plagues of wrath above and you can see that the fatalities could be at least another billion with those alone. This is why I say that people who think that the church is going to be here on the earth during the time of God's wrath, that they don't understand the severity of those plagues.

Absolutely · Aug 27, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

To be clear, are you saying the church is going to be on the earth and exposed to God's wrath? And if so, have you done a thorough study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments? The reason I ask is because with just the culmination of the first four seals and the 6th seal (a fourth and a third, respectively) that would equal well over half the earths population killed and that within the first 3 1/2 years. And that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities that result from the bowl judgments. This supported by when Jesus said, "unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved," i.e. no one would be left alive on the earth.

That said, because of the severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the mandatory mark, God would have to put a force field around every believer. This world during that time is not going to be livable. Regarding this, Lot was taken out of the area. Likewise, Noah was saved on the ark. However, since the entire world will experience God's wrath, there would be no Ark for us to get into and nowhere else in the world to go to get away from those plagues of wrath. Here's an example of what I am talking about:

"Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass."

If a third of the earth and trees are burned up, then there will undoubtedly be fatalities. For you can burn up a third of the earth and trees without affecting the inhabitants of the earth. Is God going to have all of the church on the other 2/3's of the earth that aren't burnt?

"Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed."

The great mountain burning with fire sounds like John was seeing an asteroid, which would be on fire if it was coming through the atmosphere. The reasons that a third of the creatures in the sea die and a third of the ships are destroyed, will be the result of that object hitting in the ocean which will produce gigantic Tsunami waves. The question then is, how many people on those ships. The other question is, how many people are going be in those cities, towns, villages, etc., which are sitting on the coasts and even 100 miles inland on that body of water?

If for example that object was to hit in the Atlantic, the Tsunami waves would destroy all of the cities on the east cost of South America, the United states, Canada, Iceland, Greenland, the west coasts of Ireland, Scotland, Spain and Portugal, the west cost of Europe and Africa, all the way down to Antarctica. How many fatalities would that involve? And these aren't going to be 33ft Tsunami waves, but more like hundreds of feet high depending on how fast the object is traveling, its angle and its size.

I'm just trying to paint a picture here for you of the severity of these plagues of wrath. People seem to down-play their severity. I have only mentioned two of the plagues of wrath above and you can see that the fatalities could be at least another billion with those alone. This is why I say that people who think that the church is going to be here on the earth during the time of God's wrath, that they don't understand the severity of those plagues.

If noah and lot are prejudgement dynamics,and i bring that forward,how do you determine i am not pretrib rapture centered?
I defend the pretrib rapture.
Re read my posts

louis · Aug 27, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

If the Olivets were a discourse covering two millennia, the data without explaining the difference would then be chaotic, and the Lord an author of confusion.
The Lord, however, is not an author of confusion, and the data in the Olivets is sequential, all of which occurring at the end of the current age.

Absolutely · Aug 27, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

No, the symbols of the sun, moon and stars are the keys to understanding who woman is. For she is clothed with all of these.

Ok so you say the symbolism goes like this - since the woman is associated with the sun, moon and stars, then she must be Israel.

Well, you have to include all of the symbols, not just one of them. You can't just pick one and then brush the other aside. And no, the woman is not heavenly Jerusalem. You did not provide one scripture to back up that the woman is representing the New Jerusalem. As stated before, you have to look at all the other information in the context. For example:

"And the dragon stood before the woman as she was about to give birth, ready to devour her child as soon as He was born."

So, if the woman is figurative representing the new Jerusalem, then the scripture above would saying that the dragon/Satan would be standing before the new Jerusalem to kill the new Jerusalem's child as soon as it was born. This doesn't make any sense.

In addition, it would also mean that the new Jerusalem would be giving birth to a male child? again, doesn't make any sense

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days."

Likewise, if the woman is figurative of the new Jerusalem, it would mean that the New Jerusalem would be fleeing out into the wilderness where she will be cared for 1260 days. That also doesn't make any sense. At least your consistently wrong.

I could go on with all the other characteristics of the woman and the dragon, but I think you get the point. All of the related information has to match up and make sense. And your claim that the woman represents the new Jerusalem does not fit any of the criteria.

The woman is Israel

The dragon is Satan

The woman/Israel figuratively gives birth to a male child which is a collective name for the 144,000 who come out of Israel

The male child is caught up to God and His throne

The woman/Israel flees out into the wilderness and is cared for during that last 3 1/2 years

All of the above makes sense.

Um,no the male child is Jesus.
The 144k are men.
There is no dynamic i am aware of that points to the devil attempting an attack on the 144k at birth.
However we do see this with Jesus.
I do believe it says The male child rules with A ROD of iron.
That is Jesus.
The male child is Jesus

KJV1611 · Aug 27, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

No, the symbols of the sun, moon and stars are the keys to understanding who woman is. For she is clothed with all of these.

Ok so you say the symbolism goes like this - since the woman is associated with the sun, moon and stars, then she must be Israel.

Well, you have to include all of the symbols, not just one of them. You can't just pick one and then brush the other aside. And no, the woman is not heavenly Jerusalem. You did not provide one scripture to back up that the woman is representing the New Jerusalem. As stated before, you have to look at all the other information in the context. For example:

"And the dragon stood before the woman as she was about to give birth, ready to devour her child as soon as He was born."

So, if the woman is figurative representing the new Jerusalem, then the scripture above would saying that the dragon/Satan would be standing before the new Jerusalem to kill the new Jerusalem's child as soon as it was born. This doesn't make any sense.

In addition, it would also mean that the new Jerusalem would be giving birth to a male child? again, doesn't make any sense

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days."

Likewise, if the woman is figurative of the new Jerusalem, it would mean that the New Jerusalem would be fleeing out into the wilderness where she will be cared for 1260 days. That also doesn't make any sense. At least your consistently wrong.

I could go on with all the other characteristics of the woman and the dragon, but I think you get the point. All of the related information has to match up and make sense. And your claim that the woman represents the new Jerusalem does not fit any of the criteria.

The woman is Israel

The dragon is Satan

The woman/Israel figuratively gives birth to a male child which is a collective name for the 144,000 who come out of Israel

The male child is caught up to God and His throne

The woman/Israel flees out into the wilderness and is cared for during that last 3 1/2 years

All of the above makes sense.

I think we are both wrong, I don't think the woman is earthly Jerusalem nor heavenly Jerusalem. I think it's specifically talking about Mary as an individual.

I say this because as I was researching my response to you it dawned on me that heavenly Jerusalem DOES NOT travail in child birth but the woman in Rev 12 does travail in birth.

So yes, I was wrong about the identity of the woman and thank you very much for a debate that helped me learn something! Now phase two of the debate lol.

Why is the manchild the 144,000 and not Christ? Christ is the only one in the bible who rules with a rod of iron.

Absolutely · Aug 27, 2019

KJV1611 said:

I think we are both wrong, I don't think the woman is earthly Jerusalem nor heavenly Jerusalem. I think it's specifically talking about Mary as an individual.

I say this because as I was researching my response to you it dawned on me that heavenly Jerusalem DOES NOT travail in child birth but the woman in Rev 12 does travail in birth.

So yes, I was wrong about the identity of the woman and thank you very much for a debate that helped me learn something! Now phase two of the debate lol.

Why is the manchild the 144,000 and not Christ? Christ is the only one in the bible who rules with a rod of iron.

The woman is israel

KJV1611 · Aug 27, 2019

Absolutely said:

The only problem with that view is that Israel is not clothed with the sun, Mary was but Israel as a whole is not.

Jimbone · Aug 27, 2019

dcontroversal said:

I think you are just strait up wrong in this assessment too, Jesus says “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

He said "I say to YOU, THIS generation" you have to add to what it says to get "another generation in the distance future". You are using eisegesis to make it match you traditions. Israel was judged, it happen as a matter of historical record, the end of the age happened when God removed His temple, the priesthood, and the genealogies from this earth in judgement of the covenant breakers to bring in the new age that had been promised, the ones that screamed "Crucify Him, let His blood be on our heads and the heads of our children", the one Jesus told the woman about when He said "don't cry for me, cry for your children", He knew what was coming SOON. It kind of shocks me to see you so dug into your position so that you don't even give respect to others views. I think your view is strait up silly too, but I'm not going to come at you like "..try to use your brain when reading scripture!". That's just divisive, childish, and completely opposite of what Jesus, our example of how to live, would do. When you do read scripture with you brain, and not adding your tradition TO the scripture, then you see a 1st century judgement fits SO much better than a coming "doom" that Jesus already defeated. When I use my brain I see him being more right than you, and you could honestly talk to His children better than this "try to use your brain when reading scripture!".

Just sayin,
Jimmy Rogers

iamsoandso · Aug 27, 2019

Think Hebrew and not English... The Jews/Hebrew saw an "age" of time as the toldot(generations of the heavens and earth,,Genesis 2:4) as six ages and then the seventh(Sabbath) which is why they see this as 5759 instead of 2019(counting off six sets of 1000 years) and why they saw the book of Jubilees as important(120x50=6000/six generations/ages) from the beginning till the end.

I realize in the modern day many do not see the words generation/age that way and that things change over time but they(Jews) did and still do unlike others. You would think if they ask him "and the end of the age"(Matthew 24:3) he would answer it,,,he does in Matthew 24:34...(think Hebrew).

iamsoandso · Aug 27, 2019

5779,lol

TheDivineWatermark · Aug 27, 2019

iamsoandso said:

Yeah, but remember that article I posted showing that the "[current] Hebrew year" is not actually what the calendars (like Hebcal) show, but instead is something like "256 yrs OFF" (so 256 yrs later than the current 5779 [soon to turn to 5780])…

So it's actually more like 6035 (currently), soon to turn to 6036

[we agree with the overall time-frame idea... regarding the 7th Millennium ("7th Day" / "Last Day")]

Ahwatukee · Aug 27, 2019

Absolutely said:

Oh, that's good to hear. I guess I didn't understand one of your posts, or misread it. I was confused because I did see other your posts proclaiming pre-trib. My bad!

iamsoandso · Aug 27, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

lol, I agree. I don't think that anyone actually knows anymore with accuracy like the sons of issachar once did https://biblehub.com/1_chronicles/12-32.htm which is why they did not know the time of their visitation (Luke 19;44). The disciples were asking him based on him saying what he did about the temple being destroyed and they saw him as ruling from it and so did not know which age/generation of time it was to be destroyed.

Ahwatukee · Aug 27, 2019

louis said:

The Olivet Discourse does not cover two millennial. All that was inserted was, "before all this." Before all what? I'll paraphrase:

Prior to the events of the wars and rumors of wars, nation rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom, great earthquakes famine and disease which will all take place leading up to the end of the age, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name.

Jesus is telling them what is going to happen leading up to the end of the age, then he inserts what is going to happen to them prior to all of those end time events.

In any case, what are you trying to proclaim in all this. What is your point?

louis · Aug 27, 2019

You are correct, the Olivets are about these end times.
The tribulation of the faithful in the Olivets is then also during these end times.
That was my point, which I also explained earlier describing the events in Revelation 8 where 1/3 of earth's environment is destroyed, occurs prior to the ascension of the beast, thereby indicating global tribulation prior to his ascension.
So this is how it is: First, 1/3 of earth's environment is destroyed causing tribulation for the faithful as well as the faithless.
Second, the beast ascends from the sea/the bottomless pit, which has the whole faithless world in love with his system, while the faithful throughout the world are at odds with his, and his mouths system (Daniel 7:25 & Revelation 13:7).
Third: At the conclusion of the beast's 42 months, the judgment sits, and rules to take away the beast's kingdom, to consume and destroy it unto the end (Daniel 7:26), while then awarding the kingdom to the saints (Daniel 7:27).

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Daniel 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

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