Luke 17 - Where are they taken?

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SoulWeaver

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Oct 25, 2014
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1. Hades is NOT mythological since it is clearly in the Bible as Sheol/Hades.

2. It is a place -- a region near the core of the earth (the heart of the earth).

3. It is also a state -- a state of hopelessness and torment.
When I say, a mythological place, I am pointing out the image of it as a fantastical spiritual dimension. I am not saying that sheol is mythological. I am saying that this understanding of Sheol/Hades is mythological, as it cannot be proven by the Bible.

I have already wrote why "the heart of the earth" is like not a literal location here. (second half of the post)
I will retell shortly for a smoother read if someone doesn't have time to look:
There are two other Biblical phrases coined in the same fashion, "heart of the seas" and "heart/midst of heaven", suggesting that "the heart of..." is a figure of speech, meaning "in the midst of something, although doesn't have to be too far into". The construction is used for earth in the example in Matthew, heaven and also seas. This does not mean being in the middle of the planet, but rather surrounded by ground, or "underground" said in a poetic way (Jesus was in a cave).

I am not saying that I am necessarily right, and that you are necessarily wrong. I am just explaining my reasoning, as there is some evidence in other Scriptures pointing that this is a figure of speech, and yet no evidence that it is a specific location in the center of the earth or such.
Based on what Scriptures I have before me, I would not take the heart of the earth as a specific location, but rather as a figure of speech, which pertains to the actual grave of Jesus (and maintains the foreshadowing of Jonah).

I'd argue that the small cave where Jesus was buried also makes a way better analogy to a whale's belly, than some vast spiritual pit dimension where all these souls would be abiding.

I have also looked for "nether parts" mentioned elsewhere, as some members said it was relevant:

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Consider this: could it not be an intentional distinction to point out it's descending into one's grave they are talking about? Because Jesus already descended down to the earth when He come in flesh! Distinction is necessary here for the sake of clarity: if the Scripture didn't say "lower parts", we wouldn't know it meant grave, and we would assume it meant just coming in flesh.

Similarly, in Ezekiel 31, "nether parts of the earth" simply means "underneath ground level" aka grave/death.
It says plainly: "for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, "

Thus, there is no conclusive evidence that "nether parts of the earth", or "heart of the earth" are a specific location or spiritual dimension, this is just based on guessing. In fact, the Scripture seems to point to the contrary. I hope I explained well why I don't agree, as of now.
I take Sheol/Hades simply as death, a stage/state/condition.
 
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@dcontroversal have you heard the argument that when st.paul uses the word "mystery" he is talking always about something Jesus told him that wasnt said before by Jesus in earthly ministry?

do you agree or disagree
Well....off the top of my head not necessarily, but in all fairness I would have to view each case before I gave a solid yes or no..........Over the next few days as time permits I will investigate and then give a more informed view migo
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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1. Hades is NOT mythological since it is clearly in the Bible as Sheol/Hades.

2. It is a place -- a region near the core of the earth (the heart of the earth).

3. It is also a state -- a state of hopelessness and torment.
Hades in the KJV is one (1) time translated as "grave" and 10x translated as Hell. It is certainly a place of torment in "nether parts of the earth" .

Luke 16:23 And in hell G86 he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

King James Version (KJV)
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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I am saying that this understanding of Sheol/Hades is mythological, as it cannot be proven by the Bible.
Are you suggesting that the recorded words of Christ are not sufficient to prove something?

Having read the rest of that post it looks to me now that you would rather manufacture your own theology rather than simply believe the Lord Jesus Christ -- WHO ACTUALLY WENT TO SHEOL/HADES (having created it in the first place)!
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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Are you suggesting that the recorded words of Christ are not sufficient to prove something?
I am disputing your understanding of the Word of God, not the Word. I really have no problem admitting I'm wrong when it's demonstrated through the Scriptures, in fact I've done so several times already on this thread. I listen, and I am not embarrassed of changing my mind.

Having read the rest of that post it looks to me now that you would rather manufacture your own theology rather than simply believe the Lord Jesus Christ -- WHO ACTUALLY WENT TO SHEOL/HADES (having created it in the first place)!
We are differing only in this, that I am compelled to believe that Sheol is a state of being dead rather than a geographical location in the Earth's center. Of course that Jesus did also go to Sheol/grave as a literal place - the cave that He was buried in. That's non disputable as this is the literal Gospel story line so it goes without saying that I believe it! (If I made the impression that I somehow didn't believe this, I apologize.) So. In addition, you also believe Sheol is this location in the center of the earth, rather than only the simple grave where Jesus was.

I have already shared, quoting the Bible, why I believe it is unlikely that Sheol is a mystical geographical location in the center of the planet. I think Sheol simply means death as a state, and I obviously agree it means literal grave as a place, wherever applicable in context. I am only disagreeing about "the center of the planet" idea, as I wasn't able to back it up with the Bible so far.
 
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1. Hades is NOT mythological since it is clearly in the Bible as Sheol/Hades.

2. It is a place -- a region near the core of the earth (the heart of the earth).

3. It is also a state -- a state of hopelessness and torment.

Hell is not a location. It a form of suffering in respect to these corrupted bodies of death the wrath of God reveled from heaven. No one is free form suffering the pangs of hell death As in dying suffering a person will die.. For a believer they can cry out for strength and relief , sabbath rest to finish the work This is show with Jonas as well as Jesus. The belly of the whale or the heart of the earth Both were heard

Jonah 2 King James Version (KJV) Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. (three times)

By reason of mine affliction

Psalm 31:22 For I said in my haste, I am cut off from before thine eyes: nevertheless thou heardest the voice of my supplications when I cried unto thee.

by reason of mine affliction, not dead unto death

Matthew 26:37-39 King James Version (KJV) And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. (three times)
 
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I am disputing your understanding of the Word of God, not the Word. I really have no problem admitting I'm wrong when it's demonstrated through the Scriptures, in fact I've done so several times already on this thread. I listen, and I am not embarrassed of changing my mind.


We are differing only in this, that I am compelled to believe that Sheol is a state of being dead rather than a geographical location in the Earth's center. Of course that Jesus did also go to Sheol/grave as a literal place - the cave that He was buried in. That's non disputable as this is the literal Gospel story line so it goes without saying that I believe it! (If I made the impression that I somehow didn't believe this, I apologize.) So. In addition, you also believe Sheol is this location in the center of the earth, rather than only the simple grave where Jesus was.

I have already shared, quoting the Bible, why I believe it is unlikely that Sheol is a mystical geographical location in the center of the planet. I think Sheol simply means death as a state, and I obviously agree it means literal grave as a place, wherever applicable in context. I am only disagreeing about "the center of the planet" idea, as I wasn't able to back it up with the Bible so far.
I liked this honest response....and willingness to be open to the word even if right and or wrong.

Just a couple of scriptures to ponder and ask if this why that.....concerning the current subject.....

a. Korah and his band went alive down into the pit.
b. In Revelation the PIT is opened and the smoke of a furnace pours forth along with the "locust army from the flaming pit"
c. The beast that Was, is not AND shall ascend OUT OF THE PIT
d. The best and the false prophet will be throne into a literal place along with hell (the lake of fire identified as a place or location numerous times)

Just off the top of my head.....probably numerous more scattered through out and either directly or indirectly mentioned..... ;)
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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I liked this honest response....and willingness to be open to the word even if right and or wrong.

Just a couple of scriptures to ponder and ask if this why that.....concerning the current subject.....

a. Korah and his band went alive down into the pit.
b. In Revelation the PIT is opened and the smoke of a furnace pours forth along with the "locust army from the flaming pit"
c. The beast that Was, is not AND shall ascend OUT OF THE PIT
d. The best and the false prophet will be throne into a literal place along with hell (the lake of fire identified as a place or location numerous times)

Just off the top of my head.....probably numerous more scattered through out and either directly or indirectly mentioned..... ;)
Very interesting. These have not been brought up so far.
I'll need to study this first to give a response... Do you think there is a possibility of two different pits? Seems one of them is flaming?
 
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Very interesting. These have not been brought up so far.
I'll need to study this first to give a response... Do you think there is a possibility of two different pits? Seems one of them is flaming?
No, I think they are one and the same....and for the record....I do not "spiritualize" away Revelation.....I fully believe the pits of hell will open wide and out of it's mist will come Apollyon/Abaddon leading a 200 million strong locust army as accurately describe in Revelation to wreak havoc, misery and eventually death in the human race gathered under the banner of the beast.

I honestly believe after a thorough review of the subject that they are one and the same.....

Hey.....interesting fact the BEAST of REVELATION....

WAS <---past tense when Revelation written
IS NOT <---Present tense when Revelation was written
SHALL ASCEND out of the PIT <---Future context when Revelation written

You KNOW.....ONLY TWO MEN are called THE SON OF PERDITION <----DEFINITE ARTICLE (THE) <---study it from Greek and then LOGICALLY conclude what the definite article does....

Judas Iscariot <---THE SON of PERDITION
THE BEAST <---THE SON of PERDITION

If I say...........A tomato that means any tomato
If I say...........THE TOMATO <----how many can that honestly be referencing by the verbiage?

Ponder that and let me know what you think...glad your back
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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dcon, you do know that I lean towards the spiritual understanding of the Scriptures, just as you do towards the literal, but that just makes you the right person to poke holes and refine my theories, and if my "babies" perish, they perish :)
I don't believe that plurality of opinions about prophecy is a bad thing, it helps us test our own understandings.
This whole thread has been great... :D
This is a great homework but a lot of study to do so it will take time, and I still owe a post to KJV1611 lol:)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Hell is not a location.
Now you are contradicting Christ Himself. Rather bold wouldn't you say?

For as Jonas [Jonah] was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Mt 12:40)

Wherefore he saith, When He [Christ] ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things. (Eph 8-10)

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah... (1 Pet 3:18-20)

What was this *prison* where spirits were confined? It was a PLACE called Sheol/Hades, where also we find the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham before the resurrection of Christ. It had two compartments (one for the righteous the other for the unrighteous), and may have had Tartarus (the prison of the angels which sinned in the day of Noah) adjacent to it.

When Christians start denying Bible truth, then the devil has already accomplished his objective -- which is to cause everyone to doubt the Word of God.
 

lastofall

Senior Member
Aug 26, 2014
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[for me anyway] they are taken, and that is it: we must needs learn to stop thinking above that which is written, for therein is where exaggeration and over-estimation dwells; let us therefore receive what the Lord tells us and accept it, without any slightest spot of secular mindedness.
 
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Now you are contradicting Christ Himself. Rather bold wouldn't you say?

For as Jonas [Jonah] was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Mt 12:40)

Wherefore he saith, When He [Christ] ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things. (Eph 8-10)

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah... (1 Pet 3:18-20)


The key to understanding that parble does not contraditct "by reason of his affliction" . . . a living sacrifice

What was this *prison* where spirits were confined? It was a PLACE called Sheol/Hades, where also we find the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham before the resurrection of Christ. It had two compartments (one for the righteous the other for the unrighteous), and may have had Tartarus (the prison of the angels which sinned in the day of Noah) adjacent to it.

When Christians start denying Bible truth, then the devil has already accomplished his objective -- which is to cause everyone to doubt the Word of God.

Yes the devil would remove the unseen understanding. His goal is that men walk by sight after what the eyes see (the temporal) .To include heart of the earth which is exactly the same as belly of the Whale. The last sign as a wonder, comparing one incident to another.

That's one of the problems I see with literalist. They refuse to search the signified language of God that God uses in parable and compare the spiritual unseen understanding to the same .Walking by faith (the unseen)

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.1 Corinthains 2:13-15
Again not literally discerned as those who seek after what they call sign gifts. (no such thing)

Without parables Christ spoke not. Not without literalizing .Hiding the spiritual understanding from the lost. heart of the earth has nothing to do with dirt

The same One who descended to the lower “parts” (plural) of the earth also ascended (vs. 10) far above all “heavens” (plural). Jesus went down to the lowest came down to earth and went up to the highest!

Matthew 12:40 “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

How was Jonas three days in the heart of the earth? In the same way as Jesus. If it was not by "reason of his affliction" crying out to someone who could aid being strengthened by the father three time in order to finish the work of a living sacrifice.

Then what? Did he go under ground and literal earth ?

Jonah 2 King James Version (KJV)Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

What applied to Jesus applied to Jonas. Again it would appear that those who walk by sight the literalist take away the spiritual understanding..

Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet
 
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I may be wrong or just totally simple minded, but I can't see how any of these parables are hard to follow or so complex as some say.

Just my opinion, but I think that many people are diving way too deep into a parable and losing sight of the message. In one thread, I saw where someone was talking about the parable of the wheat and tares and drawing some kind of conclusion to two gatherings in which it does not even suggest in my opinion. It's talking about harvest time (judgment) and to me the main point of that is to leave them alone and let God separate them, or we might pull up some wheat trying to weed out the garden. To me, the main point of that is that God does the separating...but then there are others going in to all this nonsense about who is going to be gathered first and taken away, or whatever.


This was even going on in Paul's time. There were some who had delved too deep into the resurrection and said that it had already came to pass. Paul instructed to avoid them. 2 Timothy 2

Same goes with Matt. 24 and 25. I can't find anywhere in the Bible that suggests this has already happened. Not seen or read anywhere that Jesus has already split the eastern sky with all his angles and the sun was darkened and the trumpet sounded and he gathered together his elect from the four corners of the earth. I'm pretty sure this would have been documented somewhere in history had it already happened. So I'm gonna assume that it hasn't happened yet.

I'm pretty sure that Matt. 24 -25 are instructions of getting prepared for this event and informing us of what is going to happen then. Like I said, I may be wrong or just simple minded, but unless someone can show me where any of those things I mentioned has already happened then I'm sure they haven't happened yet.
I believe that every word in the bible is there for a reason - two men in a bed is a night time event but two men in a field and two women grinding are day time tasks?

It's not my opinion nor my interpretation, but it is a fact that this event either a) took place over a period of more than one day or b) a period when the night was dawning to a new day.

Well Christ rose from the dead "very early in the morning at the rising of the sun.

Mar_16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

I'm not saying that's enough information to say definitively that those verses are speaking of the resurrection but it's just one piece of the puzzle that when all the other pieces are found, Luke 17 will be completely understood.

That's what I'm in search of in this thread, I'm looking for someone to provide the meaning of "where the carcass is, there will the eagles be". That's another piece of the puzzle that will bring more resolution to the picture.
 
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I believe that every word in the bible is there for a reason - two men in a bed is a night time event but two men in a field and two women grinding are day time tasks?

It's not my opinion nor my interpretation, but it is a fact that this event either a) took place over a period of more than one day or b) a period when the night was dawning to a new day.

Well Christ rose from the dead "very early in the morning at the rising of the sun.

Mar_16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

I'm not saying that's enough information to say definitively that those verses are speaking of the resurrection but it's just one piece of the puzzle that when all the other pieces are found, Luke 17 will be completely understood.

That's what I'm in search of in this thread, I'm looking for someone to provide the meaning of "where the carcass is, there will the eagles be". That's another piece of the puzzle that will bring more resolution to the picture.
Where the dead carcasses are there will the eagles as vulture unclean representing unbelievers to eat their flesh .Another way of saying. . . . let the dead or unclean bury the dead unclean or non converted. .The ones that rise (not dead) provide the meaning of those resurrected.

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
 
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I believe that every word in the bible is there for a reason - two men in a bed is a night time event but two men in a field and two women grinding are day time tasks?

It's not my opinion nor my interpretation, but it is a fact that this event either a) took place over a period of more than one day or b) a period when the night was dawning to a new day.

Well Christ rose from the dead "very early in the morning at the rising of the sun.

Mar_16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

I'm not saying that's enough information to say definitively that those verses are speaking of the resurrection but it's just one piece of the puzzle that when all the other pieces are found, Luke 17 will be completely understood.

That's what I'm in search of in this thread, I'm looking for someone to provide the meaning of "where the carcass is, there will the eagles be". That's another piece of the puzzle that will bring more resolution to the picture.
"" but it is a fact that this event either a) took place over a period of more than one day or b) a period when the night was dawning to a new day.""

Fits the rapture PERFECTLY.
in context and discription it (one taken) is the rapture
 
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Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it will be in the days of the Son of man
People were eating and drinking,marrying and being given in marriage up to the day
Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

Luke 17: 26-27 NIV

It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling
planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom fire and sulphur rained down from
heaven and destroyed them all.

Luke 17: 28 -29 NIV

It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. On that day no-one
who is on the roof of his house with his goods inside should go down and get them
Likewise no-one in the field should go back for anything. Remember Lots wife!
Whosoever tries to keep his life shall lose it and whosoever loses his life shall
shall preserve it.

Luke 17: 30 - 33 NIV

I tell you on that night two people will be in one bed
one will be taken and another left. Two women will be grinding
corn together one will be taken and the other left. Where Lord they asked
He replied where there is a dead body the vultures will be gathered together.

Luke 17: 34 - 37 NIV

And I saw an Angel standing in the Sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the
birds flying in mid air Come gather together for the great supper of God
So that you may eat the flesh of kings generals and mighty men, of horses and their
riders and the flesh of all people free and slave small and great.

Rev 19: 17 - 19 NIV

Now brothers about times and dates we do not need to write to you for you know very well the day of the lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying peace and safety destruction will come on them suddenly as labour pains on a pregnant woman and they will not escape

1 Thess 5: 1 - 3

To understand what Jesus is saying to his disciples we need to read the conversation in context. He gives examples of Noah and Lots
days and what happened to the people outside the Ark and inside Sodom. He goes on to advise them to flee and not bother to collect anything from their homes. If this was about some silent pre tribulation rapture what would be the point of telling them all this?
The emphasis is on sudden destruction when its not expected by the world in general and Israel in particular. Paul confirms this
in 1 Thessalonians. Jesus is not talking about the rapture. He is talking about the second coming and Armageddon. The rapture
happens at the second coming. Its not the people left behind who are destroyed but the people who are taken. Noah was left behind in the Ark and Lot was left behind when Sodom was destroyed.
Sorry I missed this before.

I agree that none of that is pre-trib rapture. I also agree that it was the warning of IMMINENT destruction without any warning whatsoever.... and that's exactly what happened to Israel in AD 70 so my question would be - Why does this have to be the second coming and Armageddon?
 
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Where the dead carcasses are there will the eagles as vulture unclean representing unbelievers to eat their flesh .Another way of saying. . . . let the dead or unclean bury the dead unclean or non converted. .The ones that rise (not dead) provide the meaning of those resurrected.

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
I don't agree with that at all but let's say that it's right. What dead carcass are the unbelievers (eagles/vultures) eating?
 
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I believe that every word in the bible is there for a reason - two men in a bed is a night time event but two men in a field and two women grinding are day time tasks?

It's not my opinion nor my interpretation, but it is a fact that this event either a) took place over a period of more than one day or b) a period when the night was dawning to a new day.

Well Christ rose from the dead "very early in the morning at the rising of the sun.

Mar_16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

I'm not saying that's enough information to say definitively that those verses are speaking of the resurrection but it's just one piece of the puzzle that when all the other pieces are found, Luke 17 will be completely understood.

That's what I'm in search of in this thread, I'm looking for someone to provide the meaning of "where the carcass is, there will the eagles be". That's another piece of the puzzle that will bring more resolution to the picture.
""That's what I'm in search of in this thread, I'm looking for someone to provide the meaning of "where the carcass is, there will the eagles be". That's another piece of the puzzle that will bring more resolution to the picture.""

Folks miss it because they think "place"
Jesus did not answer them. He gave them a mystery. He gave them a figure of speech.
"Where there is smoke,there is fire"
He is saying "when you see "x" you will see "y".
 
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"" but it is a fact that this event either a) took place over a period of more than one day or b) a period when the night was dawning to a new day.""

Fits the rapture PERFECTLY.
in context and discription it (one taken) is the rapture
Luke says - "Where Lord?" The Lord tells them that they will be taken to the place where the DEAD BODY is. How does the rapture fit that?

Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.