Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[DeighAnn]

Work out our salvation with fear and trembling, so when the world sees us, they see lights who penetrate the darkness, And they are drawn to that light And we can share with them the truth of God not only in words, but in actions.

What are those actions?

 

[Yahshua]

[




Greetings Y & NayborBear,

I remember going over this a whole back, Found it-post#2936.

Is this what we are talking about here?

SG

https://christianchat.com/threads/d...-to-keep-the-law-of-moses.185392/post-3987803

Yes I think this is exactly the context, what you've referenced in your post regarding Deuteronomy 32.

Ephraim (Northern Half) never returned from exile and became intermingled with the nations, losing their identity and fully becoming gentile in culture and practice.

...and I'm reminded of the opening of Acts (chapter 2?) where we read Jews (Judah; remnant of southern kingdom) from all over hearing the good news in their own language, which I believe was a microcosm of the larger fulfillment that will happen with the remnant of the Northern kingdom.

...But what hit me about Nayborbear's post was his point about the "purpose" behind it that the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to explain, and how jealousy is actually sparked in relationships.

This is a romance. Yah's wife Israel was unfaithful with other gods, so He purposed to make her jealous with another nation (woman) to draw her back to Him.

...and not to reduce this to petty human interactions, but just as an example, one can't make another jealous simply by finding another. There has to be something lost that the first feels is rightfully theirs. Finding another who's equally a "harlot" (committing the very same sins that caused the first to be rejected) isn't going to elicited the level of jealousy needed to draw the first back in.

The relationship Yah always wanted with the first must be evident in the second.

And every healthy relationship is a two way street.

It was just cool to come to that realization.

More confirmation.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Either way so what? The lost still needs preaching to because we do not know the predestined or who will respond. The one who walks away regardless still needs love, prayer and guidance. Either way those doctrines have been debated for centuries and probably will be until Christ returns.

Once boiled down one must deny free will or free will is constant in the whole process.

It is silly how hostile people get over issues like this that in reality we should be focused on Jesus and responding United to the dangers that the culture is trying to push.

I completely agree.
It warns us in Romans 10 to not speculate who is saved and who isn't, because it is God's glory.
Also, we might think someone is not elect, and they are in unsaved state, but they are not regenerated yet which may happen later. I mean, I call myself one of the Christ's elect, but I was not always a believer. In fact I struggled for many years as an agnostic before I believed... Since we do not know the future, I believe like you that we should just keep preaching the Gospel to everyone.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Just a couple of questions if you don't mind me joining/interrupting your conversation. Thanks and God bless.


Considering Romans 8:1 in regards to OSAS, is it not your belief that you would no longer face judgment since your salvation is irrevocable, non-losable and eternal as the term OSAS implies?

Who are those that are truly in Christ Jesus according to scriptures?
I provided the ff: scriptures for your guidance.

But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 2:5-6

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
2 John 1:6

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 3:1-6

Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and Walk in Love.

His Love endures forever.

No, this is not exactly OSAS beliefs, that if someone "walks away" that they are "still saved". This is a common misunderstanding that causes people to fight.
Notice when it says in the Bible that Jesus states that He "knew who would not believe" pointing at Judas Iscariot... Also, Jesus says there that Father has given Him all the SHEEP, and Jesus LOST NONE, except the son of perdition (Judas). Since Jesus says that Judas did not believe, it means that the ones who get "lost" are those who do not truly believe in Jesus. This is OSAS beliefs.
There might be a thing as backsliding on your walk, and if it is a backsliding, the person will be convicted of the Holy Spirit and get back on track (as Jesus warns some of the churches in the Revelation to "get back on track", stumble is a thing).

 

[SoulWeaver]

One has to "come to grips" with the fact that our Heavenly Father, as well as Messiah, does have enemies! So, it's not so much of a "pre-ordaining" of knowing the "end from the beginning." As it is, a "fore-knowing" of what the enemies of God will do, when peoples love for Him, waxes cold!

I think you are misapplying the Scripture here, as that verse talks about a whole generation or "times", not a specific believer in whom God's love waxed cold. I agree with the Scripture though.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What are those actions?

The fruit of the spirit


How do we do them? Learn to love self less. (Carnal mind) And learn to love others as christ loved us (no matter what the circumstance)

 

[SoulWeaver]

I would like to inject a thought.

It is the way of the world today to ask "what's in it for me".

In many ways today that is the way "salvation" is sold.

The theme in scripture is the reuniting of man with God.

But amazingly the primary benefit in many pitches to sinners is how they do not need to go to hell.

But isn't the essence of what true Christianity is is a reversal from seeking our own to seeking what is should be for God and neighbor? A return to selflessness?

Even in this thinking many corrupt it with selfish ambition. "our peace", "our joy", "our salvation", "our, our, our..." these are all byproducts of what true salvation is! A departure from everything being about us. This is where rest and peace comes from. Like the Rich Young Ruler. He may have pinned down keeping the commandments, but he was still fulfilling the lusts of the flesh! That's why Yahshua invited him to go sell all that you have and follow Him. There is no peace or joy if everything you do, including "Gods work" is done for self serving purposes. See 1 Cor 13.

I agree with you, however since this statement was a response to my post, I'd like to ask were you implying that when I said that my peace and joy increased in my walk after I came to believe I was forever safe in Jesus that I was being self-serving somehow?
Peace and joy are fruits from the Holy Spirit...
I have to make clear is that some form of accusation since you got inspired to say that by my post.

 

[SimpleGardner]

I agree with you, however since this statement was a response to my post, I'd like to ask were you implying that when I said that my peace and joy increased in my walk after I came to believe I was forever safe in Jesus that I was being self-serving somehow?
Peace and joy are fruits from the Holy Spirit...
I have to make clear is that some form of accusation since you got inspired to say that by my post.

Greetings SW,

And No! Plus my apologies for leaving that open for interpretation. No, the Joys and peace and happiness are absolute! Even if I thought that, which I didn't how would I know? No, I'm referring to the methodology that many employ as an invitation. All of us who received Christ as our Justification have one thing in common, we were drawn by the Heavenly Father and were gifted a repentant sorrow. So, in so many ways, everyone the Heavenly Father draws in need more council on how to grow in the stature of Yahshua more than on how to get joy. All those things, as I mentioned are a byproduct, not a prime product. I have appreciated your thinking and manner of speech I hope that came through. Even if we do not agree on everything, we can learn and grow Christlike through sincere fellowship. I agree with you. regarding the chaos on here. I have noted it before and commented on it often that without actually hearing one anothers voices and seeing one anothers mannerism we cannot possibly interpret the spirit of the words written. So that is a major impediment to this format. I just started here as my first forum ever in May and I have learned here. It too challenges my understanding and has forced me to verify everything to a greater degree that before.

 

[SimpleGardner]

https://christianchat.com/threads/d...-to-keep-the-law-of-moses.185392/post-3987803

Yes I think this is exactly the context, what you've referenced in your post regarding Deuteronomy 32.

Ephraim (Northern Half) never returned from exile and became intermingled with the nations, losing their identity and fully becoming gentile in culture and practice.

...and I'm reminded of the opening of Acts (chapter 2?) where we read Jews (Judah; remnant of southern kingdom) from all over hearing the good news in their own language, which I believe was a microcosm of the larger fulfillment that will happen with the remnant of the Northern kingdom.

...But what hit me about Nayborbear's post was his point about the "purpose" behind it that the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to explain, and how jealousy is actually sparked in relationships.

This is a romance. Yah's wife Israel was unfaithful with other gods, so He purposed to make her jealous with another nation (woman) to draw her back to Him.

...and not to reduce this to petty human interactions, but just as an example, one can't make another jealous simply by finding another. There has to be something lost that the first feels is rightfully theirs. Finding another who's equally a "harlot" (committing the very same sins that caused the first to be rejected) isn't going to elicited the level of jealousy needed to draw the first back in.

The relationship Yah always wanted with the first must be evident in the second.

And every healthy relationship is a two way street.

It was just cool to come to that realization.

More confirmation.

Hey Y,

Thanks for sharing that!

SG

 

[Marcelo]

Marcelo,

This does not relate to the above post but I am wanting to give you another set of Scriptures by Jesus related to justification by faith alone:

John 6:28-29 ” 28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.

God bless you brother.

Thanks for your input, UWC! You're right, Jesus is preaching salvation by faith, for verse 40 reads: "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

My focus, however, is on the differences between Jesus and Paul. Whom should we follow when they differ?

For example:

The earthly Jesus said: Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.

Sell that ye have and give alms.

The risen Jesus (through Paul) said: As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy.

First the earthly Jesus says it's hard for a rich person to enter Heaven (some versions say: with difficulty). If difficulty is involved than this is not salvation by grace! Then the Lord says it's easy for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone rich to enter Heaven. Theologians say this is a figure of speech, but it can't be. The Lord would never say "it's impossible" for something that is really possible.

Paul's teaching (Christ's spokesman) is completely different. He says it's OK to be rich provided you're not haughty and don't set your hopes on material wealth.

 

[KJV1611]

Thanks for your input, UWC! You're right, Jesus is preaching salvation by faith, for verse 40 reads: "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

My focus, however, is on the differences between Jesus and Paul. Whom should we follow when they differ?

For example:

The earthly Jesus said: Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.

Sell that ye have and give alms.

The risen Jesus (through Paul) said: As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy.

First the earthly Jesus says it's hard for a rich person to enter Heaven (some versions say: with difficulty). If difficulty is involved than this is not salvation by grace! Then the Lord says it's easy for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone rich to enter Heaven. Theologians say this is a figure of speech, but it can't be. The Lord would never say "it's impossible" for something that is really possible.

Paul's teaching (Christ's spokesman) is completely different. He says it's OK to be rich provided you're not haughty and don't set your hopes on material wealth.

For one thing, the kingdom of God came when Christ came, it’s more of a state of mind and not a place. Money and the cares of this world makes it pretty darn hard to enter into that kingdom. Nevertheless, that kingdom is a place of faith and rest in Christ and has nothing to do with our eternal destination.

Paul and Jesus are talking about two different things.

 

[wokinluv]

Its hard to show people who work at the law scripture that shows their extreme error. Because I don't believe they have the capacity to understand it. Otherwise, why is there 290 pages of this?

Romans 8:2-3
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


Do you understand what this is saying????

Its saying that the law is NOT the way to become "lawless". The law is weak through the flesh.

Only through the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus do we become "Law-keepers".

If people were really so concerned with keeping the law they should know how its done. But they don't. All they know is their carnal work at a carnal law.

Considering Romans 8:1 in regards to OSAS, is it not your belief that you would no longer face judgment since your salvation is irrevocable, non-losable and eternal as the term OSAS implies?

Who are those that are truly in Christ Jesus according to scriptures?
I provided the ff: scriptures for your guidance.

But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 2:5-6

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
2 John 1:6

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 3:1-6

Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and Walk in Love.

His Love endures forever.

No, this is not exactly OSAS beliefs, that if someone "walks away" that they are "still saved". This is a common misunderstanding that causes people to fight.
Notice when it says in the Bible that Jesus states that He "knew who would not believe" pointing at Judas Iscariot... Also, Jesus says there that Father has given Him all the SHEEP, and Jesus LOST NONE, except the son of perdition (Judas). Since Jesus says that Judas did not believe, it means that the ones who get "lost" are those who do not truly believe in Jesus. This is OSAS beliefs.
There might be a thing as backsliding on your walk, and if it is a backsliding, the person will be convicted of the Holy Spirit and get back on track (as Jesus warns some of the churches in the Revelation to "get back on track", stumble is a thing).

Considering Romans 8:1 in regards to OSAS, is it not your belief that you would no longer face judgment since your salvation is irrevocable, non-losable and eternal as the term OSAS implies?

Do you(OSAS) not say and believe that your sins in the past, present and future have all been forgiven and you therefore have no more need to ask God for forgiveness and repent of your sins? That faith ALONE saves and that you are saved the very moment you believe which brought me to asking you about OSAS followers not facing judgment or being exempted from judgment.

Who are those that are truly in Christ Jesus according to scriptures?
I provided the ff: scriptures for your guidance.

But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 2:5-6

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
2 John 1:6

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 3:1-6

Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained. Philippians 3:12-21

Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and Walk in Love.

His Love endures forever.

 

[Marcelo]

For one thing, the kingdom of God came when Christ came, it’s more of a state of mind and not a place. Money and the cares of this world makes it pretty darn hard to enter into that kingdom. Nevertheless, that kingdom is a place of faith and rest in Christ and has nothing to do with our eternal destination.

Paul and Jesus are talking about two different things.

Read verses 25 and 26:

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Jesus was talking about salvation.

Paul was not talking about salvation, but if the words of Jesus in Matthew 19:24 (easier for a camel...) were applicable for Christians, he would have confirmed them somehow. If being poor were a requirement for salvation, Paul would never have written what he wrote to Timothy (tell the rich not to be haughty ...). Rather, he would have written: "Tell the disciples to give away their possessions because the rich will not enter Heaven".

 

[wokinluv]

LAWLESSness is evil.

God's laws and commandments are good and holy.

Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.
Romans 12:9

 

[Marcelo]

Marcelo,

This does not relate to the above post but I am wanting to give you another set of Scriptures by Jesus related to justification by faith alone:

John 6:28-29 ” 28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.

God bless you brother.

CORRECTION: On the third line, from bottom to top, replace FIGURE OF SPEECH with HYPERBOLE.

Thanks for your input, UWC! You're right, Jesus is preaching salvation by faith, for verse 40 reads: "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

My focus, however, is on the differences between Jesus and Paul. Whom should we follow when they differ?

For example:

The earthly Jesus said: Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.

Sell that ye have and give alms.

The risen Jesus (through Paul) said: As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy.

First the earthly Jesus says it's hard for a rich person to enter Heaven (some versions say: with difficulty). If difficulty is involved than this is not salvation by grace! Then the Lord says it's easy for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone rich to enter Heaven. Theologians say this is a hyperbole but it can't be. The Lord would never say "it's impossible" for something that is really possible.

Paul's teaching (Christ's spokesman) is completely different. He says it's OK to be rich provided you're not haughty and don't set your hopes on material wealth.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Read verses 25 and 26:

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Jesus was talking about salvation.

Paul was not talking about salvation, but if the words of Jesus in Matthew 19:24 (easier for a camel...) were applicable for Christians, he would have confirmed them somehow. If being poor were a requirement for salvation, Paul would never have written what he wrote to Timothy (tell the rich not to be haughty ...). Rather, he would have written: "Tell the disciples to give away their possessions because the rich will not enter Heaven".

Hey Marcelo,

truly a sticking point. like anything else, when in doubt....sell out! Something temporary for something eternal seems to be a fair trade and we cannot fake that one. I was just thinking what Yahshua left behind to step into time with certain death ahead.

Seems the entire message about the Kingdom of Heaven is to look for whatever is inverted from this world;

Pride to humility
Being served to being a servant
Being powerful to meek and lowly
Being liked to being hated/rejected
Earning respect to being despised
Achieving success to utter failure here
Wealth to poverty? seems to fit the pattern.

 

[Marcelo]

Hey Marcelo,

truly a sticking point. like anything else, when in doubt....sell out! Something temporary for something eternal seems to be a fair trade and we cannot fake that one. I was just thinking what Yahshua left behind to step into time with certain death ahead.

Seems the entire message about the Kingdom of Heaven is to look for whatever is inverted from this world;

Pride to humility
Being served to being a servant
Being powerful to meek and lowly
Being liked to being hated/rejected
Earning respect to being despised
Achieving success to utter failure here
Wealth to poverty? seems to fit the pattern.

A friend of mine did that (gave away almost everything he had) and then had to live off his friends. He quit a decent job (as an airline pilot) and ended up working as an executive pilot for Edir Macedo, the number one false prophet in South America.

 

[SimpleGardner]

A friend of mine did that (gave away almost everything he had) and then had to live off his friends. He quit a decent job (as an airline pilot) and ended up working as an executive pilot for Edir Macedo, the number one false prophet in South America.

Yikes! Sad testimonial. Sounds like he tried to have his cake and eat it too.

If you consider the opportunity we have today...Today most people have 100 times the ease comfort and luxuries than any king did in Yahshua' time. Most people in the world today think poverty is the scourge of our day, but actually wealth, possessions, materialism is by far the most spiritually devastating scourge there is. On the flip side, with so much sacrifice to offer, anyone who does so will store up even more treasure in heaven.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

tHANK you for these thoughts and observations. What do we do? Do we go to the schools and say we would like to call an assembly to speak to them? Do we go to parks and find people to talk to? Do we start a blog for kids? Do we start videos blogs? Do we run for office? Do we write letters to the President? What do we do?

It may sound funny but change first starts from within. Be the change you want to see in the world. If we have families that is the next step to build a strong family rooted in the Word. So as they grow and spread out they will influence others.

Circle of influence. We all have a circle of influence or individuals we are around the most. Find who those are and remember you may be the only example of Christ they see.

The google generations has every destructive idea at their fingertips and are some of the most knowledgeable people due to this reason. We as Christians every single one of us must study in Apologetics and be prepared to give a answer to every question and remark. We have the best answers if we just spend time learning how to respond and respond with grace.

Taking back our education system starts from your hometown. If your a taxpayer regardless if you have kids in public school you can be involved with the local school, school board of education meetings, and even can run for a school board seat that has direct influence on the school. Most schools do not mind if a local church has their youth Pastor and members to visit the school during lunch hours.

Our youth is key but we must start with self. The older generations who squawk and argue over issues that the majority isn't even worried about. I got many friends I do not totally agree on theology but we do agree on Christ and and core message of the Gospel. Our prison ministry literally works with multiple denominations for the greater good.

So much we can do. My message here is only a small portion if we all can just step aside our pride and realize everyone doesn't exactly see the same as them. That's just reality and in less it is super extreme and majorly a false and twisted Gospel like a Mormon or Jehovah Witness then we should ban together to fight the true enemy.

I honestly do not see God asking us once we die well did you think the earth was young, old, flat, round. Did you think I chose certain individuals for salvation. Did you think belief eternally secured you or was a living faith the key to eternal salvation. Etc etc and based on our response we get accepted into Heaven or not. I do not see God too much worried on such topics. I believe it will be all about with the time we had what did we do with Jesus, how did we spend the time as a Christian knowing the Gospel, the grace, the forgiveness, the truth, and the hope that our culture is desperately searching for.

Our kids are dying to hear objective truths and are itching to hear the other points of view beyond atheism.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I completely agree.
It warns us in Romans 10 to not speculate who is saved and who isn't, because it is God's glory.
Also, we might think someone is not elect, and they are in unsaved state, but they are not regenerated yet which may happen later. I mean, I call myself one of the Christ's elect, but I was not always a believer. In fact I struggled for many years as an agnostic before I believed... Since we do not know the future, I believe like you that we should just keep preaching the Gospel to everyone.

Exactly. I cannot see the hearts or the future so regardless of my view on predestination or pre elected we still cannot see from a earthly perspective who they are. I personally see the foreknowledge of Christ, immaterial, space-less, time-less of God and the free free will of man as the pivotal part in my view of predestination and electivity.

Either my view, your view, neither one of us can see the heart or know the future. So we work together to save the lost. And once they are saved then they can work out their salvation and what details they want to accept as true.