The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

[iamsoandso]

So,you do not believe God works in sets of time frames?
"...till the time of the gentiles be completed"
A time frame of God building his Kingdom before his return,then God turning his attention to his covenant Jewish people (jacobs trouble)

Sure I believe God will do the same very thing you do. But,,, in the bible does God set his/that kingdom up on earth and then the devil deceive the earth and the MoS rule in the Israel,Jerusalem,temple... or,,,,,does the devil mimic those things,deceive the earth by setting up an imposter Israel,Jerusalem,temple where the MoS sits in it saying he is God ?

It's really an issue of which of the two comes next you see (the MoS or the Lord), but in Scripture Jesus destroys the MoS with the brightness of his coming so the MoS then would be there when the Lord returns and so the MoS rises prior to the Lords return. But if you notice everyone sees what has taken place from 1948 as of God and not as if they see that the deception and MoS happens prior to the Lords return and follow after it with their full support.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ The way I see it (as I've stated before), that the opening of the first SEAL is when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Rev4-5 [/Isa3:13]) and that I see a parallel in the kind of wording found in both 2Th2:7b-8a and Lam2:3-4 [among "wrath" words there], so that it is God who is using these things, to greater "ends" (both the bringing of Israel to faith [and into the New Covenant] [the "WISE" of Israel, i.e. the believing remnant of Israel in the trib years]; as well as the destruction of the wicked [see Dan12:10, for example (context: Israel, there)]). IOW, the FIRST SEAL is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3, Matt24:4/Mk13:5]" at the START of the 7-yr trib [/the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period which will unfold upon the earth (1st SEAL = "man of sin")]… these other things (mentioned in my previous post) are the "set up" toward that end.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

… meaning, God is in control of its timing (etc) [as was shown in my earlier post, and posts]

 

[iamsoandso]

Then Luke 13:35,Matthew 23:39 and John 5:43 are speaking of the same?

And these things here in reference to him returning to his place until they acknowledge their offense(OT quotes)? Until then,(them saying blessed is the king... ) has them still looking for one to come in his own name(John 5:43),,,that is they receive the MoS, and then acknowledge their offense(their error) and then accept Jesus as Messiah in that order and not the other way around?

 

[garee]

So,you do not believe God works in sets of time frames?
"...till the time of the gentiles be completed"
A time frame of God building his Kingdom before his return,then God turning his attention to his covenant Jewish people (jacobs trouble)

He works by purifying the heats of man as a work of faith or called a labor of His love . . . as it written as the source of that faith This is in any generation .It is shown working in Abel the first murdered martyr. the reforming , restoring creating Spirit of those born from above in any generations. It has nothing to do with 1948 .That my birth year.

We cannot seperate grace into time periods.


Acts 15:8-10 King James Version (KJV)And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

No difference between a Jew and a Gentile ( flesh and blood) or time periods called dispensations .(No need)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And these things here in reference to him returning to his place until they acknowledge their offense(OT quotes)? Until then,(them saying blessed is the king... ) has them still looking for one to come in his own name(John 5:43),,,that is they receive the MoS, and then acknowledge their offense(their error) and then accept Jesus as Messiah in that order and not the other way around?

My viewpoint is slightly different from yours (I think), somewhat, in that, I do not believe Matt23:39/Lk13:35 take place on, say, the last 24-hr day of the trib, but rather, very early on in the trib (so is John 5:43, not by the same set of ppl, though both referring to Jews/Israel).

I believe it will be the believing remnant of Israel (having come to faith WITHIN the trib years [FOLLOWING our Rapture]) who will be the ones DOING the INVITING to [their] promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS [on the earth, commencing upon His "RETURN" there (Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 and Lk19:12,15,17,19; and Rev19:9 [not v.7] and Matt22:8-14's "THEN saith he unto", etc)]," aka "the age [singular] to come" [Matt12:42/and Matt13 leading up to that]).

So that, say, in the Matt24:15-16's [mid-trib point] "when ye therefore shall SEE... [then...] FLEE," they do so because of obedience to what Jesus has stated there (parallel Rev12:6,14 etc)... "let them which be in Judaea FLEE into the mountains..." (things along these lines... plus the Ezek39:7 verse I pointed out earlier, which I believe occurs, like with Joseph, in the second year of his "seven year famine" and this would be equivalent to the "SECOND SEAL WARS" [this one being included with those])... so early in the trib years, just as Hosea 5:15 seems to be stating very clearly.


[in previous posts I've mentioned the TWO DISTINCT RESPONSES/BELIEFS those in the trib will have, as shown in the CONTRAST passages within the CONTEXT of 2Th1&2 [2:10-12 contrasting 1:10b (same future time period)], when "the DOTL" and "IN THAT DAY" (as used elsewhere AND HERE, together) refer to the SAME TIME PERIOD]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT: should read "Matt12:32" (not 42... fingers hitting wrong keys! lol)

and [should read], "where "the DOTL" and "IN THAT DAY" (as used elsewhere, AND HERE, together) refer to the SAME TIME PERIOD]"

[...to be more clear]

 

[garee]

Now you see why Israel "needs" to be relegated to the dumpster.
Israel becoming a nation changed the way we look at end times.

Not all Israel is born again Israel some remain as Jacob . To others when the reformation came it was the end of using Jewish flesh in parable to represent all of mankind as types and shadows that were cut off as the tribulation of Jacob

 

[azamzimtoti]

The Great Tribulation was in 1st century AD, Luke's account when tied to Matthew's tells you the time (when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies) they were to flee:

(Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. )

(Luke 21:21 “Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city )

----------------------------------------

(Mat 24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. )

(Mat 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. )

(Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth )

There can be no doubt that the "hour of temptation" describes the great tribulation.

Matt and Luke are speaking of the same time and events in the 1st century which means any theology that places the above 2000 years and counting later are based on sand, which we've seen shifts with every generation since.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There are plenty of examples that have a certain verse or passage to be split into two distinct times regarding the fulfillments (Isa61, for example).


Luke 21 has the "BoBPs" coming AFTER the 70ad events with its "SEE-then-FLEE";

whereas Matthew 24 has the "BoBPs" taking place BEFORE its [later, sequentially] "SEE-then-FLEE".



The "BoBPs" are the same identical things [and time] in all 3 chpts (Matt24, Mk13, Lk21);

but the SEQUENCE [for events in relation to them] is distinct, thus proving that the "SEE-then-FLEEs" are wholly distinct events at wholly distinct time frames...

(one in the events surrounding 70ad; the other in the events occuring in the midst/middle of the [far-future] specific, limited [7-yr] tribulation period which time period will START with 2Th2:8a/9a [its BEGINNING], continue to unfold until 2Th2:4 [its MIDDLE], and then further onto its 2Th2:8b conclusion [its END]; just like Dan9:27[26] shows BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END; and just like Rev6:2/Rev13:5/Rev19:19,21[<--parallel Isa24:21-22(23)]--BEGINNING/MIDDLE/END).


The 70ad events result in their [that is, Israel] "be led away captive into all the nations" per Lk21:24b (and Jerusalem trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL" [to end of trib]); whereas the Matthew 24 passage shows its "end" to be their being gathered together ['one BY one'] by angels to worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem (comp. Matt24:29-31 with Isa27:12-13 [@ "the GREAT trumpet" (not at our Rapture [which is 'AS ONE'])]).

 

[azamzimtoti]

The 70ad events result in their [that is, Israel] "be led away captive into all the nations" per Lk21:24b (and Jerusalem trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL" [to end of trib]); .

How can Israel be "led captive" when according to your "theology" they haven't been regathered.

Let's see how Peter uses Hosea to establish that the scattered (diaspora) tribes were being gathered together in Christ in the time of the apostles ministry:

(1 Pet 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.)

(Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.)

(Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.)

(Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.)

 

[KJV1611]

The beast he saw is the eight and of the seven it was in the pit in Revelation 17:8(ad70) but it's not the Israel that is of God man set it up,,,wait for Gods.

Why wait for Gods Israel? Gods Israel came when Christ came the first time.

...which was the point of my posting that passage, as I did (Hosea 5:15-6:3, among others), as the passage itself is supplying the time frame for it [/involved in it / pertaining to it].


[it is not referring to "two 24-hr days" nor "in the third 24-hr day"]

Just curious, how can we consider the Jews seeking God 2000 years in the future at the “end of time”, how is that seeking him early?

Hos 5:15 (KJV) I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

 

[Absolutely]

Sure I believe God will do the same very thing you do. But,,, in the bible does God set his/that kingdom up on earth and then the devil deceive the earth and the MoS rule in the Israel,Jerusalem,temple... or,,,,,does the devil mimic those things,deceive the earth by setting up an imposter Israel,Jerusalem,temple where the MoS sits in it saying he is God ?

It's really an issue of which of the two comes next you see (the MoS or the Lord), but in Scripture Jesus destroys the MoS with the brightness of his coming so the MoS then would be there when the Lord returns and so the MoS rises prior to the Lords return. But if you notice everyone sees what has taken place from 1948 as of God and not as if they see that the deception and MoS happens prior to the Lords return and follow after it with their full support.

 

[Absolutely]

Sure I believe God will do the same very thing you do. But,,, in the bible does God set his/that kingdom up on earth and then the devil deceive the earth and the MoS rule in the Israel,Jerusalem,temple... or,,,,,does the devil mimic those things,deceive the earth by setting up an imposter Israel,Jerusalem,temple where the MoS sits in it saying he is God ?

It's really an issue of which of the two comes next you see (the MoS or the Lord), but in Scripture Jesus destroys the MoS with the brightness of his coming so the MoS then would be there when the Lord returns and so the MoS rises prior to the Lords return. But if you notice everyone sees what has taken place from 1948 as of God and not as if they see that the deception and MoS happens prior to the Lords return and follow after it with their full support.

Yes i see what you are saying.
I would agree about the ac/mos
But place the rapture pretrib. Not necessarily pre mos revealed.
Where do you place the rapture?

 

[Absolutely]

And these things here in reference to him returning to his place until they acknowledge their offense(OT quotes)? Until then,(them saying blessed is the king... ) has them still looking for one to come in his own name(John 5:43),,,that is they receive the MoS, and then acknowledge their offense(their error) and then accept Jesus as Messiah in that order and not the other way around?

I was wondering how you tied in jn 5;43 in your earlier post.....
Interesting.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Why wait for Gods Israel? Gods Israel came when Christ came the first time.

Exactly

Just curious, how can we consider the Jews seeking God 2000 years in the future at the “end of time”, how is that seeking him early?

Hos 5:15 (KJV) I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

I'm not sure that 5:15 relates to their future K16, I think chapter 6 explains the resolution.

Where do you place the new "heavens and earth"?

 

[Absolutely]

How can Israel be "led captive" when according to your "theology" they haven't been regathered.

Let's see how Peter uses Hosea to establish that the scattered (diaspora) tribes were being gathered together in Christ in the time of the apostles ministry:

(1 Pet 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.)

(Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.)

(Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.)

(Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.)

(1 Pet 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.)

That is the chuch in the new covenant.
Peter is addressing the church. Jewish believers.
The first churches were jews. Born again jews.

Were not a people=jews in blind following of the ot apart from the rebirth

Now a people= what paul declares as a new creation,the old things/self being passed away

 

[azamzimtoti]

That is the chuch in the new covenant.

Peter is addressing the church. Jewish believers.

Peter is writing to the scattered tribes that had received the gospel not only the Jews:

(1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered (Greek diaspora) throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia)

And so is James:

(James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered (Greek diaspora) abroad, greeting.)

Therefore the tribes have been united under one stick in Christ. There is no need to look for a third recovering:

(Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.)

(Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.)


You can't have Gentiles in the church/kingdom without the recovering of his people, the two go hand in hand as Isaiah states.

 

[iamsoandso]

Why wait for Gods Israel? Gods Israel came when Christ came the first time.

Just curious, how can we consider the Jews seeking God 2000 years in the future at the “end of time”, how is that seeking him early?

Hos 5:15 (KJV) I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

So you see Revelation 21 as past tense?,,,when do you see it to have taken place?

 

[iamsoandso]

Exactly


I'm not sure that 5:15 relates to their future K16, I think chapter 6 explains the resolution.

Where do you place the new "heavens and earth"?

lol, you've pondered the DBR and the things written by the apostles after that time-frame it seems...