The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

[KJV1611]

In Acts 3:21 "until the restitution of all things"(approx ad30-32) Peter filled with the HS thinks this is future. In 2 Corinthians it states "shadow of things to come..."(approx ad55) Paul thinks this is future. In Acts 24:15(approx ad57) Paul thinks that the Resurrection of the just and the unjust is future. Do you think the new heavens and new earth came after these things or that they are tied to it at all? It seems clear that the apostles thought it was not yet fulfilled when they spoke and wrote these things is why I ask.

I think the restitution of all things is still future.

Here is my view of the resurrection, and I believe this is what Paul believed also - the resurrection HAS NOT PAST ALREADY. The firstfruits of the first resurrection started with the resurrection of Jesus and MANY bodies of the saints which slept. There are more bodies to be raised later.

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

I think the new heavens and new earth has already came... I'm open for correction on any of this, and honestly do want to be corrected if I'm wrong. But just a heads up lol, just because it's written in the last part of Revelation is not evidence for me.

 

[KJV1611]

Who is the branch cut off that allowed another to be grafted in,which paul says those cut off will be grafted back in?
He refers to the covenant people ...the Jews.
They are still covenant people.

But i can see why you need that out of the way.

I've shown verse after verse that show the flesh descendants of Israel are not and never have been the children of God and even the verse that you posted earlier proves that.

As far as the branches being cut out of the olive tree, what does the olive tree represent in your opinion? My view is the olive tree is the word of God... the Jews had access to it but those branches were CUT OFF. Them being cutoff and exactly how they were cut off from the olive tree can be seen right here in Isaiah 28:13.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The Jews were cut off from the olive tree. When they read scripture line upon line, line upon line.... It causes them to FALL BACKWARD because those branches were CUT OFF from the olive tree.

 

[Magenta]

Bob and I have started reading through Romans after finishing Acts while also reading from Genesis forward in the OT (we just finished Joshua ). What we read from Romans 11 last night seems applicable to what I have just read in this thread From Romans 11~

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Romans 25-32

I have been working on a panel dedicated to the Doxology that comprises Romans 11:33-36

 

[Magenta]

Romans 11:33-36

 

[KJV1611]

Good point
The 7 letters to 7 churches written around 90 ad seems to have Jesus misunderstanding that he is supposed to frame rev in a historic time frame.

Have you considered what those letters say? They were written specifically to those seven churches in existence 2000 years ago. They were told things like:

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

This was written to a church that only existed 2000 years ago. What was Jesus keeping them from?

Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Again, written to a church that only existed 2000 years ago. When was that great tribulation?

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

A church that only existed 2000 years ago. Why would Jesus say that he's coming ON THEM like a thief in the night if THEY don't watch?

Whether you will receive it or not, all those things pertained to 70 AD and the destruction of "Jezebel" and the ones "who say they are Jews and are not".

So were the letters or the book of Revelation written in 90 AD? I think not, they had to be written BEFORE 70 AD.

Never, ever trust the SECULAR world for anything bibically related.

 

[KJV1611]

I at some point in my life I had heard so many different opinions on these issues(about timing of things) that I thought I would just look at what the apostles said. so I re-read through to see in specific if the apostles were wording things in a future wording or past tense on the different issues commonly debated and then compared it to a timeline of the events(what year each book was written and what year the comments were made in Scripture/mileage may vary in the timelines on the www,lol ).

Some things I found I could determine an answer to in the Scriptures and others not and so I began to look at the letters of the early Church( after the NT books) because it made me wonder if they spoke of the things we most commonly have mixed opinions on. That though I admit might not be any more helpful than our own opinions if I went too far away in time from the Apostles books.

I noticed that there are two different groups,,one is "Apostolic fathers" the other is "Church fathers" the difference between the two is that the Apostolic fathers knew the Apostles and were appointed in several cases by the Apostles over different Churches(seems the Apostles would not have chosen them to head a Church if they differed in what they saw as truth),but they did set them in charge as their lives were ending. The other group after about 175ad'ish I don't trust as much because they did not know the Apostles personally.

I think I'm almost out of data for a few days(ISP,,I'll see if or not) but I might be offline a few days(maybe not,lol)

Hurry back, we're gonna miss you!

 

[KJV1611]

Perhaps you may recall some of my posts that pointed out the following:

--"had a bow" (where "bow" often represents "deception"...[that's even aside from the study on the word "arrow" which isn't mentioned here]; then see the passages I listed referring to the ARRIVAL of the man of sin [at the START of the trib (parallel time-wise with the ARRIVAL of the DOTL time period/INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]")], such as Matt24:4/Mk13:5... 2Th2:8a... 2Th2:9a [parallel Dan9:27(26)]... 1Th5:2-3 ['in the night' (parallel Dan7:7's 'in the night')--they involve "deception" (that's what "anti-Christ" [i.e. pseudo-Christ] refers to, as I see it... [and see 2Th2:10-12's "that they should believe the pseudei/the false"<--this referring to the future trib yrs, not presently])]

--"given a crown" (same word [tho different ppl!] as used with regard to the "24 elders" seated on thrones in heaven before the opening of the first seal, where they say in 5:9 "US" [per manuscript evidence I already shared], and the following verse [said by others ABOUT them] "made them... kings and priests... and they shall reign on the earth"... so comparing these, one can see that "crown" can speak to this idea of "reigning" [tho, again, I am NOT suggesting these two passages are speaking of the same persons/entities/body of ppl, or whatever... I'm just pointing out the "crown" aspect)

--in the OT (as I've mentioned before), "kings went [/go] out to battle" at a very specific time of year (consistent with my studies I've also presented [in part] in the past, involving the "chronology" and so forth)

--the word also in Rev6:2 "conquering, and to conquer" is the same Grk word used of events taking place LATER in the chronology, where 11:7 and 13:7 say, "and shall overcome them, and kill them [the 2W]" and "to make war with the saints, and to overcome them" (compare this verse with Dan7:20-21 - "and shall prevail against them")


Can you see any correlations here? (per what I've put also in past posts)

Hope this helps somewhat, with what you are asking. (there's more... this is just a sampling)

The Bow

The bow doesn't have an arrow because it's a RAINBOW. Joseph foreshadowing Jesus wore a coat of many colors... why? Because it symbolizes A COVENANT between God and man.

Gen_9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

The Crown

στέφανος stéphanos, stef'-an-os; from an apparently primary στέφω stéphō (to twine or wreathe); a chaplet (as a badge of royalty, a prize in the public games or a symbol of honor generally; but more conspicuous and elaborate than the simple fillet,G1238), literally or figuratively:—crown.

Mat 27:29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!

How ironic that the crown in Revelation is a WREATHE worn as a badge of ROYALTY and Jesus just so happened to wear a WREATHE OF THORNS proclaiming him as KING of the Jews.

Conquering

Joh_16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome (conquered) the world.

Always look to scripture for answers, everything in the bible has at least two witnesses and I have never seen a second witness for "The Antichrist" riding any kind of horse.

 

[KJV1611]

Bob and I have started reading through Romans after finishing Acts while also reading from Genesis forward in the OT (we just finished Joshua ). What we read from Romans 11 last night seems applicable to what I have just read in this thread From Romans 11~

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Romans 25-32

I have been working on a panel dedicated to the Doxology that comprises Romans 11:33-36

Thanks for your input Magenta. Yes, reading Romans 11 there are most definitely two groups of Israel.

1. The enemies of the gospel. (Not chosen by God)
2. The Elect. (Chosen by God)

And to add to that, WE are Israel too... as it is written "All Israel (saved Jews and saved Gentiles) shall be saved!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Have you considered what those letters say? They were written specifically to those seven churches in existence 2000 years ago. They were told things like:
[…]
So were the letters or the book of Revelation written in 90 AD? I think not, they had to be written BEFORE 70 AD.
Never, ever trust the SECULAR world for anything bibically related.

Who do you believe Rev2:13's "Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who WAS SLAIN among you" ?

Some [most?] sources say he was martyred AFTER 70ad (some say, in the 80s, others suggest later date than that)...

What is your view on that?


Metropolis of Pergamum (Wikipedia) -

"The Christian community of Pergamon was one of the earliest established in Asia Minor during the 1st century AD. It also comprised one of the Seven Churches of Asia mentioned at the New Testament Book of Revelation, written by John the Apostle. According to the Christian tradition, Antipas was appointed bishop of Pergamon, by John. He was martyred there in 92 AD.[3]"


[who is this article saying is the "he" that was "martyred there in 92 AD.?" I cannot tell what this particular article is saying, for sure. I assume, re: "Antipas" ]

 

[KJV1611]

Who do you believe Rev2:13's "Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who WAS SLAIN among you" ?

Some [most?] sources say he was martyred AFTER 70ad (some say, in the 80s, others suggest later date than that)...

What is your view on that?

Most sources say that George Bush was a Christian lol.

Metropolis of Pergamum (Wikipedia) -

"The Christian community of Pergamon was one of the earliest established in Asia Minor during the 1st century AD. It also comprised one of the Seven Churches of Asia mentioned at the New Testament Book of Revelation, written by John the Apostle. According to the Christian tradition, Antipas was appointed bishop of Pergamon, by John. He was martyred there in 92 AD.[3]"


[who is this article saying is the "he" that was "martyred there in 92 AD.?" I cannot tell what this particular article is saying, for sure. I assume, re: "Antipas" ]

The "he" in the article was referring to John. Antipas was supposedly martyred between 54-68 AD according to the wikipedia article below.. I think it's the same site you went to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipas_of_Pergamum

The traditional account goes on to say Antipas was martyred during the reign of Nero (54-68),[3] by burning in a brazen bull-shaped altar for casting out demons worshiped by the local population.

I don't need that information to know that the book of Revelation was written before 70 AD, the book SCREAMS that it was written prior to 70 AD.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The "he" in the article was referring to John. Antipas was supposedly martyred between 54-68 AD according to the wikipedia article below.. I think it's the same site you went to.

[re: the bold ^ ] It doesn't seem so, because of what is said in another article:

"It is traditionally believed that John was the youngest of the apostles and survived them. He is said to have lived to an old age, dying at Ephesus sometime after AD 98, possibly surviving into the second century.[49]

"An alternative account of John's death, ascribed by later Christian writers to the early second-century bishop Papias of Hierapolis, claims that he was slain by the Jews.[50][51] Most Johannine scholars doubt the reliability of its ascription to Papias, but a minority, including B.W. Bacon, Martin Hengel and Henry Barclay Swete, maintain that these references to Papias are credible.[52][53] Zahn argues that this reference is actually to John the Baptist.[49] John's traditional tomb is thought to be located at Selçuk, a small town in the vicinity of Ephesus.[54]"

--Wikipedia (John the Apostle)

...and another one said "died in old age" (that is, not martyred).


So, like I pointed out, there are a few different dates given regarding the martyrdom of "Antipas" (including the one I supplied, "92 AD" and another stating some time in the 80s)

 

[KJV1611]

[re: the bold ^ ] It doesn't seem so, because of what is said in another article:

"It is traditionally believed that John was the youngest of the apostles and survived them. He is said to have lived to an old age, dying at Ephesus sometime after AD 98, possibly surviving into the second century.[49]

"An alternative account of John's death, ascribed by later Christian writers to the early second-century bishop Papias of Hierapolis, claims that he was slain by the Jews.[50][51] Most Johannine scholars doubt the reliability of its ascription to Papias, but a minority, including B.W. Bacon, Martin Hengel and Henry Barclay Swete, maintain that these references to Papias are credible.[52][53] Zahn argues that this reference is actually to John the Baptist.[49] John's traditional tomb is thought to be located at Selçuk, a small town in the vicinity of Ephesus.[54]"

--Wikipedia (John the Apostle)

...and another one said "died in old age" (that is, not martyred).


So, like I pointed out, there are a few different dates given regarding the martyrdom of "Antipas" (including the one I supplied, "92 AD" and another stating some time in the 80s)

Like I said before, we don't need anyone to date the book of Revelation, it is abundantly clear from what is written in the book of Revelation that it was written before 70 AD.... unless the reader reads it with dispensational glasses on.

Jesus riding the white horse.

Christ came not to bring peace but a sword.

A measure of wheat for a penny, three measures of barley for a penny.... Do you know what a penny is in the King James bible? It's a days work... Christ on the cross.

Death and Hell released to destroy Israel in 70 AD.

The souls under the alter given white robes - the old testament saints UNDER the alter - Christ.

The sun moon and stars falling - the kingdom being taken from Israel. "even as a FIG TREE (Israel) casteth her untimely figs".

The wrath of God coming on the Jews in AD 70 - 144000 Jews marked in their forehead for protection.

I try not to get angry about it because I shouldn't and I know that people just don't realize what they are doing, but dispensational when compared to the truth is pure blasphemy. It takes the finished work of Jesus Christ and attributes it to "The Antichrist".

You're a good guy TDW and I don't mean to put any of this against you personally.

 

[azamzimtoti]

The Jews were cut off from the olive tree. When they read scripture line upon line, line upon line.... It causes them to FALL BACKWARD because those branches were CUT OFF from the olive tree.

I think Paul in Romans is speaking of the 10 tribes that were cut off K16

I don't think is referring to the Jews being cut off at the time he wrote:

(Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded )

When you look at the previous verse for context:

(Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.)

The above relates to 1 Kings 19.

 

[KJV1611]

I think Paul in Romans is speaking of the 10 tribes that were cut off K16

I don't think is referring to the Jews being cut off at the time he wrote:

(Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded )

When you look at the previous verse for context:

(Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.)

The above relates to 1 Kings 19.

I agree they weren't cut off back during that time.... apologies if I said that. I meant that those were the verses that prophesied of them being cut off.

I may not be understanding your reply as you meant it lol. Are you saying it happened during the time of 1 Kings? I think it happened when Christ came.

 

[azamzimtoti]

I agree they weren't cut off back during that time.... apologies if I said that. I meant that those were the verses that prophesied of them being cut off.

I may not be understanding your reply as you meant it lol. Are you saying it happened during the time of 1 Kings? I think it happened when Christ came.

No, I think Paul is speaking of the 10 Northern tribes that were cut off/spread into the nations

(2 Ki 17:6 In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.)

 

[KJV1611]

No, I think Paul is speaking of the 10 Northern tribes that were cut off/spread into the nations

(2 Ki 17:6 In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.)

What do you think the olive tree is that they were cut off from?

 

[azamzimtoti]

What do you think the olive tree is that they were cut off from?

Paul is speaking figuratively, but I would say Abraham as the father of the 12 tribes and estranged from God i.e. Hosea.

 

[KJV1611]

Paul is speaking figuratively, but I would say Abraham as the father of the 12 tribes and estranged from God i.e. Hosea.

Ok that makes sense. I lean more towards it being the word of God and I base that on Zech 4:3. It would be too much to explain why I believe that but you may very well be right.

Zec 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

Which is tied to this:

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Ok that makes sense. I lean more towards it being the word of God and I base that on Zech 4:3. It would be too much to explain why I believe that but you may very well be right.

Zec 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

Which is tied to this:

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Hard to say who those two olives tree are, but in the revelation that are related to the angels of the churches:

(Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. )

But going back to Romans and those who were cut off he is definitely pointing to Elijah:

(1 Ki 19:13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?)

(1 Ki 19:14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.)

(Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying)

(Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.)

I really don't think he's speaking of Jews being cut off from the olive tree, that would come at the destruction of the city, temple and the casting out of the recalcitrant Jews ( Matt 8:12, Gal 4:30 )

 

[GaryA]

I have read every word you posted and still do not see anything that even suggest it could mean what the PTR view says it does.

I may be a little confused now???

You do realize that I have a post-trib / pre-wrath view of the Rapture - right?