Trinity haters on CC

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Noose

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Apr 18, 2016
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Jesus was distanced from the Father in the crucifixion, because he paid the price of the sins of believers. Part of this cost was alienation from God.

This does nothing to disprove the deity of Christ or the Trinity, though.

Jesus had a dual nature, being both God (YHVH) and man. He could be alienated from the Father in the sense of his humanity.

These are not new arguments, by the way. Christians already know that Jesus has two natures, man and God. This was necessary for the atonement and other reasons. You really need to study the creeds if you think Christians don't already understand these feeble arguments.
There's no such thing as two natures. It is an attempt to reconcile what is already irreconcilable.
We are urged to have the mind of Christ/ the spirit of God in us, are we also having two natures?
 

Noose

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Ultimately, I don't decide anyone's salvation, but I don't believe those who deny Jesus is God are believers. Additionally, I don't believe those who are engaged in teaching false doctrines, such as anti-Trinitarianism, are real believers. Quite often, their rejection of the Trinity is accompanied by other false doctrine, distortion of church history, and paranoid, anti-Christian teachings. These are some of the hallmarks of cultic behavior.

I am sure some of my friends don't understand the Trinity, but they aren't engaged in defiantly teaching against it, and trying to arouse suspicion against Christian organizations regarding it. Additionally, it takes some time for new believers to understand the doctrine.
So many children die young and without ever believing Jesus is God. I strongly believe they are saved from eternal death just the way they are. Jesus tells us if we don't become like them we shall never see the kingdom of heaven.

Ponder that.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
So many children die young and without ever believing Jesus is God. I strongly believe they are saved from eternal death just the way they are. Jesus tells us if we don't become like them we shall never see the kingdom of heaven.

Ponder that.
But according to some they go straight to hell forever and ever. The Bible may not say that but those things are not important.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Jesus had two distinct NATURES.

By the way, Trinitarians understand the "right hand" you are referencing. Quit telling people Trinitarians don't understand something that is well-understood. All they have to do is buy a decent study bible and they will know you are misrepresenting Trinitarian theology.

By the way if anyone is watching and wants a good one, I recommend Zondervan NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible.

Right hand is a position of strength or authority by the way. I wouldn't describe the phrase exactly as you are describing it.

And, regarding the Son being only a position of authority and not a Person, this is bunk. Jesus shares his Sonship, as part of the benefits of being joined to him, but Jesus is not a mere position of authority. This is kooky.
Ok, let me know which points are ok with you and which ones are not:

1. Jesus is the first and the last, the beginning and the end
2. Jesus knows the end/ the hour
3. Jesus doesn't know the end/ the hour
 

Noose

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Apr 18, 2016
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But according to some they go straight to hell forever and ever. The Bible may not say that but those things are not important.
Why? because they never believed in Jesus?!
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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At least one individual on this thread seems to be promoting Oneness doctrine, which is associated with Oneness Pentecostalism typically.

It is a heretical teaching.

Rob Bowman has written a very good article in this regard, and I am attaching a pdf form of this document. Some of the same arguments are brought up on this thread.
 

Attachments

UnitedWithChrist

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Ok, let me know which points are ok with you and which ones are not:

1. Jesus is the first and the last, the beginning and the end
2. Jesus knows the end/ the hour
3. Jesus doesn't know the end/ the hour
#1 is fine. He is YHVH.

#2 and #3 depend on the time frame you are discussing, and the nature (he is both God and man).

At the time of his incarnation, Jesus in the sense of his deity did know the time of the end, and in the sense of his humanity he did not know the time of the end.

Jesus in the sense of his deity has always known the time of the end. Jesus in the sense of his humanity did not know the time of the end.

By the way, if you are promoting Oneness theology, I suggest you read the article by Rob Bowman that I attached to my last post. He addresses some of your concerns/claims. He wrote a book called Putting Jesus in His Place and is one of the best authorities on the deity of Christ.

He addresses many of the claims made on this thread.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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So many children die young and without ever believing Jesus is God. I strongly believe they are saved from eternal death just the way they are. Jesus tells us if we don't become like them we shall never see the kingdom of heaven.

Ponder that.
Again, I am taking about defiant individuals who are pursuing corruption of the church through false beliefs. I am not talking about children. Sympathy for your aberrations will not be extended through use of exceptional situations.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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There's no such thing as two natures. It is an attempt to reconcile what is already irreconcilable.
We are urged to have the mind of Christ/ the spirit of God in us, are we also having two natures?
Jesus is both God and man...I am not going to argue with that point because it is so solidly supported in Scripture.

I recommend that anyone who is teachable read the article I posted by Rob Bowman. My guess is this guy is Oneness, perhaps Oneness Pentecostalism, or some perversion from it.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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Ultimately, I don't decide anyone's salvation, but I don't believe those who deny Jesus is God are believers. Additionally, I don't believe those who are engaged in teaching false doctrines, such as anti-Trinitarianism, are real believers. Quite often, their rejection of the Trinity is accompanied by other false doctrine, distortion of church history, and paranoid, anti-Christian teachings. These are some of the hallmarks of cultic behavior.

I am sure some of my friends don't understand the Trinity, but they aren't engaged in defiantly teaching against it, and trying to arouse suspicion against Christian organizations regarding it. Additionally, it takes some time for new believers to understand the doctrine.
Additionally, I have one cousin whose father was a Oneness Pentecostal pastor. She is not the brightest crayon in the box. I am pretty sure she still believes Oneness theology. I would not claim she is unsaved as she is not hostile toward Trinitarians. She has diminished intelligence and isn't antagonistic so I don't think she is in the same category as cultists.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Jesus is both God and man...I am not going to argue with that point because it is so solidly supported in Scripture.

I recommend that anyone who is teachable read the article I posted by Rob Bowman. My guess is this guy is Oneness, perhaps Oneness Pentecostalism, or some perversion from it.
No.
Reading Rob Bowman does not change anything.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Again, I am taking about defiant individuals who are pursuing corruption of the church through false beliefs. I am not talking about children. Sympathy for your aberrations will not be extended through use of exceptional situations.
Exceptional situations not.
Children don't believe in Christ but are saved and we are told if we don't become like them we shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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#1 is fine. He is YHVH.

#2 and #3 depend on the time frame you are discussing, and the nature (he is both God and man).

At the time of his incarnation, Jesus in the sense of his deity did know the time of the end, and in the sense of his humanity he did not know the time of the end.

Jesus in the sense of his deity has always known the time of the end. Jesus in the sense of his humanity did not know the time of the end.

By the way, if you are promoting Oneness theology, I suggest you read the article by Rob Bowman that I attached to my last post. He addresses some of your concerns/claims. He wrote a book called Putting Jesus in His Place and is one of the best authorities on the deity of Christ.

He addresses many of the claims made on this thread.
If your explanation above is what i should expect in the book, then i don't think it will address any of my concerns. But i'll read it because you have asked me.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Additionally, I have one cousin whose father was a Oneness Pentecostal pastor. She is not the brightest crayon in the box. I am pretty sure she still believes Oneness theology. I would not claim she is unsaved as she is not hostile toward Trinitarians. She has diminished intelligence and isn't antagonistic so I don't think she is in the same category as cultists.
I'm not oneness Pentecostal, my beliefs are far weird that theirs. I can not count God because i believe only material things are countable. I believe God is an understanding (Truth).
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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I'm not oneness Pentecostal, my beliefs are far weird that theirs. I can not count God because i believe only material things are countable. I believe God is an understanding (Truth).
If only material things can be counted, why would Scripture speak of angels in the plural?
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
Why? because they never believed in Jesus?!
the Lord gave us common sense for a reason, I am pretty sure that back when my kids were three and four, i would not have abandoned them in the woods for doing something they didnt even know was wrong, i love my kids and Jesus says our Father in heaven loves us more than that.
some people get so wrapped up in their own opinions they lose their common sense and say things that deep down they know are foolish. in the days of Jesus and the 12 the pharisees did the same thing, they taught the masses that their own personal understanding of scripture was the only way it was to be understood, any other view point was heresy, and people still do it doday.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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the Lord gave us common sense for a reason, I am pretty sure that back when my kids were three and four, i would not have abandoned them in the woods for doing something they didnt even know was wrong, i love my kids and Jesus says our Father in heaven loves us more than that.
some people get so wrapped up in their own opinions they lose their common sense and say things that deep down they know are foolish. in the days of Jesus and the 12 the pharisees did the same thing, they taught the masses that their own personal understanding of scripture was the only way it was to be understood, any other view point was heresy, and people still do it doday.
Correct, primarily cults and oddball Christians who deny core Christian doctrine.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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Exceptional situations not.
Children don't believe in Christ but are saved and we are told if we don't become like them we shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Scripture is silent on that issue. Jesus was talking about the humility of a child.

I am not saying they are saved, and I am not saying they aren't. It's something Scripture is silent upon. The only possible inference is that David thought he would go to his son, but his son can't come back to him.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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the Lord gave us common sense for a reason, I am pretty sure that back when my kids were three and four, i would not have abandoned them in the woods for doing something they didnt even know was wrong, i love my kids and Jesus says our Father in heaven loves us more than that.
some people get so wrapped up in their own opinions they lose their common sense and say things that deep down they know are foolish. in the days of Jesus and the 12 the pharisees did the same thing, they taught the masses that their own personal understanding of scripture was the only way it was to be understood, any other view point was heresy, and people still do it doday.
Anti-Trinitarians are basically divisive individuals. Scripture warns against it. Cultic groups use this as one of the points to convince others that their belief system is correct, and to dissuade them from Christianity.