If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken

[garee]

Well, I wouldn't definitely say it was wrong, just that I can't see a reason for it. Some Protestants like to pray really long prayers. I can't see a reason for that either.

I did hear from an educated Catholic person one time that asking Mary to pray for you is not required, it's just a common practice. But I haven't researched that for myself.

Hi would offer..

Makes me wonder according to Luke 17when he does come on the last day will he find faith (Luke 18:8)

After this manner (one) therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Mathew 6:9

In the end of the matter its not the length of prayers but rather the manner singular. Praying after another manner other than the one given is the vanity . . . whether its long or one word "Mary" or "mother" . The corrupted flesh and blood of our dear blessed sister in the Lord, Mary could never be a source of unseen faith. She is dead asleep waiting for the wake up call on the last day . Like David said in the Psalms : when I awake you are still there

The commandment not subject to change is pray "this manner" .not a open book for adding others.. . . "many manners as many gods"

One source of faith (the unseen) as it is written (sola scriptura) the fingerprint of God

The substance of the vain repetitions makes it empty . we are to cry in prayer continuing as long as we do not harden our hearts. he not only comforts us teaches us but also brings all things to our memories even our love we have for each other. he alone knows what we need giving us his desire to seek after it before he moves us working in us. A wonderful peace beyond our human understanding.

Why would we ask each other even if there was more than one manner by which we could build a faith. . . in respect to God. . not seen the holy place of faith. if we do not know the thoughts of one another how could we beleive we could knew His. it would seem to be a pagan foundation in respect to the things of men called the temporal.

Again the focus is not a "repetitions" we are to pray without ceasing ...... but vain or empty ones ..

But when ye pray, use not Mathew vain repititons as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. Mathew 6:9

 

[Dan_473]

I would think they have the same scriptures as us .With a few extra as hidden wisdom or private revelations .

I think a person would first have to define "baptize for the Dead" The scripture uses it in respect to those dead in their trespasses and sin without hope and without God as the baptism of the Holy Spirit giving them eternal spirit life. Hearing the gospel, believing Him our Holy Father in heaven ( not on earth)

Jesus said let the dead bury their own dead. Catholisicim keeps those appointed by a sinner the Pope alive as patron saints. .The bible call those kind of workers with familiar spirits that are falsely used as a living hope in a hope they are communing with who they hope it is.

Because the whole legion of gods not seen in the likeness of men as patron saints. Idol image must be used like that of Rachel , the teraphims she hid from her father, used as a family shrine. lit with many candles to illuminate it at night . . .teraphims must be used when seeking the help of disembodied spirits . (3500 and rising patron saints ) picking up speed these days.

it is simply a form of necromancy ,the Hebrew word darash . Tt can be used in two ways, necromancy as in seeking the dead by those living having the proper teraphim , or in a God honoring way seeking after of father living to those dead in their trespasses and sin.

It's not candle light needed but the glory of our father, the other use of darash seeking after our one Father in heaven the one manner we might seek after the things not seen having no form. .Not a multiple of dead fathers no longer here under the Sun.

And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.Isaisah 8:19 -20

I hear what you're saying. I've heard several different interpretations of what baptized for the dead means in 1st Corinthians 15.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I think two of the notes at the bottom of that webpage are interesting
Mark 16:9 Later mss add vv 9-20
Mark 16:20 A few late mss and versions contain this paragraph, usually after v 8; a few have it at the end of ch

The Last Twelve Verses of Mark are GENUINE SCRIPTURE. Dean Burgon wrote a book to refute all the nonsense about this passage.

The modern versions has been misleading people. "Late" and "early" manuscript designations mean nothing, since the oldest manuscripts are the MOST CORRUPT. But these versions will never tell you that.

 

[Dan_473]

God has protected and preserved His word. The long ending of Mark must be understood in the context of the rest of the word of God. Problems arise when folks take a verse out and use it to create a pretext to support a particular doctrine they wish to espouse.

Become well versed on the parts of the bible that are not subject to question and you will not question any parts of the bible.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Who decides which parts of the Bible are not subject to question?

Most parts of the Bible have been questioned by different groups throughout history.

Do you have a list of the unquestionable parts? Or a text of the Bible that is not subject to question?

 

[Dan_473]

We need to kmow what is in behind. Catholic have ambition to create one world government.

https://www.proclaimingthegospel.or...03854&message_id=180068078&topic_id=180021176

https://www.proclaimingthegospel.or...03854&message_id=180068078&topic_id=180021176

That is why Catholic say Muslim adore abraham's God. To prepare for one world religion to support one world government, lucifer government

So lie is ok for her, because her father is lucifer

Yes, many people interpret the Bible to be predicting a one world government run by Satan. But it's a particular Bible interpretation.

Daniel 2: 44. In the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

 

[Dan_473]

If no record Christian baptizing the death, than don not do it

That sounds like a good idea. Of course, that would be basing your Christian practice at least in part on tradition, not just scripture alone.

 

[Dan_473]

So you believe it is right, but you do not know the reason ?

Well, having been raised as a Protestant, asking a dead person to pray for you feels wrong.

But as Jesus pointed out, from God's perspective everyone is alive.

Then is the body of Christ just those Christians here on Earth? Or does it include Christians who have left their earthly body?

When I went to a Presbyterian Church, they talked about the church militant which is Christians here on Earth and the church triumphant which is Christians in heaven. So when someone died, they would announce it as they had joined the church triumphant.

So if it's all one Church, is it wrong to ask another member to pray for you? Again, I don't know. I don't trouble myself about it because I don't see a significant reason for it.

 

[Dan_473]

I agree. Was it left out or did someone add something that was not there? Did it change the gospel message? Either way it does not change the law of interpretation. . . . as it is written we abide in him, not man like Peter seen. The it in as it is writen represents the faith of Christ that does work in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.1 John 2:26 -27

If we would as a Catholic must in order that they can seek the approval of their daysman the Pope . Then we have made the faith of Christ as the it that the gates of hell could never prevail against.

Scripture reveals that kind of blasphemy. It would remove the grace of God according to Peter (this shall not be unto thee.) .The Catholic key by which they lord over the faith of the pew sitters. peter was forgiven of his blasphemy. today because the Son of man is no longer here it could never be forgiven . Why seek the approval of the Pope and in doing commit blasphemy ?

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men Mathew16:22-23

Well, how about the ending of Matthew, from verse 16 to the end of the chapter. Is that scripture?

 

[Dan_473]

Hi would offer..

Makes me wonder according to Luke 17when he does come on the last day will he find faith (Luke 18:8)

After this manner (one) therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Mathew 6:9

In the end of the matter its not the length of prayers but rather the manner singular. Praying after another manner other than the one given is the vanity . . . whether its long or one word "Mary" or "mother" . The corrupted flesh and blood of our dear blessed sister in the Lord, Mary could never be a source of unseen faith. She is dead asleep waiting for the wake up call on the last day . Like David said in the Psalms : when I awake you are still there

The commandment not subject to change is pray "this manner" .not a open book for adding others.. . . "many manners as many gods"

One source of faith (the unseen) as it is written (sola scriptura) the fingerprint of God

The substance of the vain repetitions makes it empty . we are to cry in prayer continuing as long as we do not harden our hearts. he not only comforts us teaches us but also brings all things to our memories even our love we have for each other. he alone knows what we need giving us his desire to seek after it before he moves us working in us. A wonderful peace beyond our human understanding.

Why would we ask each other even if there was more than one manner by which we could build a faith. . . in respect to God. . not seen the holy place of faith. if we do not know the thoughts of one another how could we beleive we could knew His. it would seem to be a pagan foundation in respect to the things of men called the temporal.

Again the focus is not a "repetitions" we are to pray without ceasing ...... but vain or empty ones ..

But when ye pray, use not Mathew vain repititons as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. Mathew 6:9

If one source of faith is the scripture only, then it seems to me very important to know whether a passage is scripture or not.

 

[Dan_473]

The Last Twelve Verses of Mark are GENUINE SCRIPTURE. Dean Burgon wrote a book to refute all the nonsense about this passage.

The modern versions has been misleading people. "Late" and "early" manuscript designations mean nothing, since the oldest manuscripts are the MOST CORRUPT. But these versions will never tell you that.

I see. What does that particular scholar say about the book of Revelation.
Is it scripture?
Many early Christians rejected it.

Oddly enough, it was often rejected and Asia Minor, the very place it says it was written to.

 

[Jackson123]

Yes, many people interpret the Bible to be predicting a one world government run by Satan. But it's a particular Bible interpretation.

Daniel 2: 44. In the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

That happen after one world government by lucifer promote by catholic. So catholic work for lucifer and her interpretation is lie.

And the government that last forever is not by human hand, so what pope promote is Satan government and she work for satan

 

[Jackson123]

Well, having been raised as a Protestant, asking a dead person to pray for you feels wrong.

But as Jesus pointed out, from God's perspective everyone is alive.

Then is the body of Christ just those Christians here on Earth? Or does it include Christians who have left their earthly body?

When I went to a Presbyterian Church, they talked about the church militant which is Christians here on Earth and the church triumphant which is Christians in heaven. So when someone died, they would announce it as they had joined the church triumphant.

So if it's all one Church, is it wrong to ask another member to pray for you? Again, I don't know. I don't trouble myself about it because I don't see a significant reason for it.

Seem to me you agree pray to the death.

Yes if a person go to heaven they are a live. But after physically death they can not communicate to the life.

Try to go to hospital and talk to death Christian, let me know if they able to answere.

My parent are Christian and they both with the lord now, 3 days ago a thief steal my tv, my parent love me, if they able to communicate with me, they will tel me before the thief come or tell me who the thief was, so I can tell police.

Can you tell me that it is apostle tradition to pray to Mary. Or apostle teach that interpretation?

 

[Nehemiah6]

I see. What does that particular scholar say about the book of Revelation. Is it scripture? Many early Christians rejected it.

While that was not what we were discussing, the book of Revelation was NOT rejected by the early Christians. I don't know where you got this misinformation, but the Muratorian Canon from the 2nd century includes the Revelation (called the Apocalypse since the Greek title is Apokalupsis) as belonging to th Canon of the New Testament: "And John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes only to seven churches, yet addresses all."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/muratorian.html

 

[Dan_473]

That happen after one world government by lucifer promote by catholic. So catholic work for lucifer and her interpretation is lie.

And the government that last forever is not by human hand, so what pope promote is Satan government and she work for satan

Again, I believe what you are saying is a particular Bible interpretation.

In Daniel it says in the days of those kings. Since there are multiple Kings, it is not a single government.

It is in the days of those multiple kings that the Stone comes from heaven, the stone cut without hands.

 

[Dan_473]

Seem to me you agree pray to the death.

Yes if a person go to heaven they are a live. But after physically death they can not communicate to the life.

Try to go to hospital and talk to death Christian, let me know if they able to answere.

My parent are Christian and they both with the lord now, 3 days ago a thief steal my tv, my parent love me, if they able to communicate with me, they will tel me before the thief come or tell me who the thief was, so I can tell police.

Can you tell me that it is apostle tradition to pray to Mary. Or apostle teach that interpretation?

You are correct that we don't have any written record the 12 apostles teaching about asking Christians in heaven to pray for us.

Let's take a step back for a moment and look at the big picture.

We could go back and forth about this or any other Catholic teaching. And we could do it almost indefinitely, as we did with Muslims and Abraham God.

But in the end, I don't think it would have much impact on a serious, practicing Catholic. Because they would probably not be very interested in a particular individual's Bible interpretation.

they would want to know what the body of Christ as a whole has taught throughout the centuries.

 

[notuptome]

You are correct that we don't have any written record the 12 apostles teaching about asking Christians in heaven to pray for us.

Let's take a step back for a moment and look at the big picture.

We could go back and forth about this or any other Catholic teaching. And we could do it almost indefinitely, as we did with Muslims and Abraham God.

But in the end, I don't think it would have much impact on a serious, practicing Catholic. Because they would probably not be very interested in a particular individual's Bible interpretation.

they would want to know what the body of Christ as a whole has taught throughout the centuries.

First Catholics have an incorrect perception of just what actually comprises the church. The church is not an organization based in Rome. Catholics need to be concerned with what the bible teaches and not what the catholic church wants them to know.

Christians depend on Christ for salvation. Catholics depend on the church as in the pope, ritual and company of church appointed saints for salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dan_473]

While that was not what we were discussing, the book of Revelation was NOT rejected by the early Christians. I don't know where you got this misinformation, but the Muratorian Canon from the 2nd century includes the Revelation (called the Apocalypse since the Greek title is Apokalupsis) as belonging to th Canon of the New Testament: "And John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes only to seven churches, yet addresses all."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/muratorian.html

You are correct that we were discussing the longer ending of Mark. But I believe that was part of a larger discussion about the Canon of scripture.

Yes, the Muratorian Canon lists the book of Revelation. (Interestingly, it also lists the book of wisdom.)

The church that the Muratorian fragment comes from was in Italy, that is, the western part of the Roman empire, I believe.

The book of Revelation was often rejected by early churches in the east.

"Particularly in the East, there was a resurgence of doubt about the book in the fourth century and later."

https://www.michaeljkruger.com/the-book-of-revelation-how-difficult-was-its-journey-into-the-canon/

 

[Dan_473]

First Catholics have an incorrect perception of just what actually comprises the church. The church is not an organization based in Rome. Catholics need to be concerned with what the bible teaches and not what the catholic church wants them to know.

Christians depend on Christ for salvation. Catholics depend on the church as in the pope, ritual and company of church appointed saints for salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

As I understand it, the Catholic view of the church is that it is something visible.

The body of Christ, the church, is not an invisible connection among Christians. The church has a visible hierarchy.

I think this view is based on the interpretation of the part in The sermon on the Mount where Jesus says that people don't light a lamp and then put a blanket over it. So God did not set up the body of Christ as light to the world and then hide it.

That's my understanding of what the Catholics think.

But again, it's all about Bible interpretation, and whether it's done by an individual or not.

 

[notuptome]

As I understand it, the Catholic view of the church is that it is something visible.

The body of Christ, the church, is not an invisible connection among Christians. The church has a visible hierarchy.

I think this view is based on the interpretation of the part in The sermon on the Mount where Jesus says that people don't light a lamp and then put a blanket over it. So God did not set up the body of Christ as light to the world and then hide it.

That's my understanding of what the Catholics think.

But again, it's all about Bible interpretation, and whether it's done by an individual or not.

What do you think?

I think, no I know, the catholic church is wrong and scripture illustrates the error.

The body, the bride of Christ is not visible but Spiritual and invisible.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jackson123]

Again, I believe what you are saying is a particular Bible interpretation.

In Daniel it says in the days of those kings. Since there are multiple Kings, it is not a single government.

It is in the days of those multiple kings that the Stone comes from heaven, the stone cut without hands.

44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

So you believe the kings or God will set the everlasting kingdom.

How about one world government promote by pope, is that lucifer government in reve 13