Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[Heyjude]

Greetings Heyjude,

It's a sad conversation when we have to stoop to allow those who push Grace to the point that obedience to Gods Laws for the Love of God is sinful!

Truthfully, Jesus does forgive, but He forgives the "repentant heart", the heart that grieves over infractions to His commands. But where does this repentance come from? It comes from a love of His laws and as a gift from Him for our transgression.

Our Heavenly Father's heart in the matter is recorded in the following verses, as well as by the entire scripture itself;

Eze 33:13 NIV If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done.

Deu 29:19-20 NIV When such a person hears the words of this oath, he invokes a blessing on himself and therefore thinks, "I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way." This will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry. (20) The LORD will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn against that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.

SG

Thank you Simple Gardener. What a lovely name by the way. I agree that its a heart relationship. It is impossible to keep the laws sometimes no matter how good a moral guide they are, so thank God for Grace.

For instance, I couldn't possibly have kept the Sabbath anyway looking after both my parents who were dying of cancer at home. Even the Lord said "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath"? I think he hopes we have a heart for what is "right" naturally and hopefully they are a good guide for moral living. Not lying, stealing, cheating on someone, making up stuff about people or murder for instance should be that hard not to follow (surely). I guess Heaven on Earth will be like that natually. (Along with being vegetarian as there is no death). That one really gets ppl.

 

[Heyjude]

Thank you Simple Gardener. What a lovely name by the way. I agree that its a heart relationship. It is impossible to keep the laws sometimes no matter how good a moral guide they are, so thank God for Grace.

For instance, I couldn't possibly have kept the Sabbath anyway looking after both my parents who were dying of cancer at home. Even the Lord said "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath"? I think he hopes we have a heart for what is "right" naturally and hopefully they are a good guide for moral living. Not lying, stealing, cheating on someone, making up stuff about people or murder for instance should be that hard not to follow (surely). I guess Heaven on Earth will be like that natually. (Along with being vegetarian as there is no death). That one really gets ppl.

Sorry typo above I meant "shouldn't be that hard to follow!"

 

[SimpleGardner]

Thank you Simple Gardener. What a lovely name by the way. I agree that its a heart relationship. It is impossible to keep the laws sometimes no matter how good a moral guide they are, so thank God for Grace.

For instance, I couldn't possibly have kept the Sabbath anyway looking after both my parents who were dying of cancer at home. Even the Lord said "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath"? I think he hopes we have a heart for what is "right" naturally and hopefully they are a good guide for moral living. Not lying, stealing, cheating on someone, making up stuff about people or murder for instance should be that hard not to follow (surely). I guess Heaven on Earth will be like that natually. (Along with being vegetarian as there is no death). That one really gets ppl.

You are welcome HeyJude,

Your care-giving experience was an act of obedience/love in the honoring of your Father and your Mother. We are blessed with the gift of Gods commandments upon our hearts and it sounds to me that your choices to Honor them were rightly guided.

I think Yahshua's words in Luke 14:5 straightway gives answer to the question He put to the Pharisees, who by the way would not give answer. So, Sabbath is important, but Love prevails over the Sabbath!

Yes, I believe the Kingdom of Heaven is being built in the hearts of men by the Holy Spirit of God. The eventual removal of the tares will make the Kingdom shine.

SG

 

[SimpleGardner]

Sorry typo above I meant "shouldn't be that hard to follow!"

Thank You,

I put the correct word in for you. Your intention stood clear even with the typo.

Sadly there are murderers in this world, whose hearts are not grieved in the least. "A sensible act" to many minds/hearts. There is no end to the gratitude we must feel for the hearts our Heavenly Father has worked into us to do His will with almost no hesitation! This is the Glory of God, that He not only redeemed us through Yahshua from the penalty of our past sins, but He redeemed our hearts form future sins through writing His Will/Laws upon the very nature of our being, our hearts!

Bless Our Heavenly Father; Know and Keep!

SG

 

[Dan_473]

I know scriptures can contradict one another. But I don't know about you, but I remember the game "Simon says".
If Paul or Jesus were standing in front of you telling you two different things, which one are you going to believe? I wouldn't take a chance on that and no matter how confusing the scripture is sometimes, how do you know its not a test to see if you really "Follow the Leader". I would rather follow Jesus than anyone else but that's my view. Everyone else can listen to whom they will. But why take a chance?

Hi Heyjude, nice to meet you!

I've heard of this idea that maybe there is a conflict between what Jesus said when he walked here on Earth and what the apostles later wrote in their Epistles.

One thing a person may wish to consider is who is likely to have a better understanding of what Jesus meant? Those who grew up in the same culture and spoke the same native language? Or those of us today, 2000 years later?

I think another interesting question is, who wrote the book of Matthew? If it was an apostle who wrote down the words of Jesus in that book, then what happens if an apostle can't be trusted?

 

[posthuman]

I know scriptures can contradict one another. But I don't know about you, but I remember the game "Simon says".
If Paul or Jesus were standing in front of you telling you two different things, which one are you going to believe?

when you think the scriptures are contradicting each other, you don't understand what you're reading.

thinking that Jesus and His apostles are saying different things is not something you should be comfortable with believing.

 

[SimpleGardner]

when you think the scriptures are contradicting each other, you don't understand what you're reading.

thinking that Jesus and His apostles are saying different things is not something you should be comfortable with believing.

And evidently it was a common occurrence to the point that Peter declared;

2Pe 3:14-17 NIV So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. (15) Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. (16) He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (17) Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

 

[posthuman]

And evidently it was a common occurrence to the point that Peter declared;

2Pe 3:14-17 NIV So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. (15) Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. (16) He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (17) Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

have you read Romans yet?

Peter's comment is not license for you to ignore or discard it.

 

[Heyjude]

when you think the scriptures are contradicting each other, you don't understand what you're reading.

thinking that Jesus and His apostles are saying different things is not something you should be comfortable with believing.

My point before on this thread was “where this is an obvious contradiction I would rather believe Jesus”. I do understand what I am reading.


Some posts on this thread have quoted Paul on the Law yet Jesus said not one “jot or tittle shall pass from the Law”, putting Paul against what Jesus said but Paul doesn't say that.


I probably phrased it wrongly and meant to say “people's interpretation of scripture differ” not that Scripture contradicts itself (I do not think it does). But there are many views which are not clear which is why there are so many viewpoints! This is because Scripture is either read differently, interpreted differently (like speaking different languages/speaking in tongues for instance) and this leads to disagreements.


There would not be so many disagreements on the Law if everyone saw the same scripture. My point was that Jesus words must take precedence if in doubt or you can get into all sorts of squabbles on the Law. It's just a simple rule I use thats all, I am not saying the Word itself contradicts itself but if Jesus is the Word then his is the real Word over others (if in doubt)


For instance. The Thief on the Cross. Some say that Jesus was saying (in so many words) “Today (I say to you Today) you will be with me in paradise” which is daft. Everyone knows it's “Today”. He meant TODAY you will be with me in Paradise. If he said TODAY then he must mean TODAY. That is how I mean contradictions in interpretation. I believe if Jesus said TODAY because he actually meant TODAY! Not “ I say this TODAY”. It doesn't even make any sense to interpret it that way but some obviously do. Some even say the comma is in the wrong place putting the whole grammar of the Scripture in doubt.


There are so many Bibles now and the reason some passages may seem so contradictory is simply that different books, and even different passages in one book, were written by different authors with different theological and political viewpoints. The interpretation of the Law is one point of contention or the 4 Gospels and so is the Penitent Thief on the Cross another good example.


As many quote Paul (wrongly by the way as he never says the Law is done away with at all) and do not answer when I ask them what Jesus meant when he clearly says the Law still stands until Heaven and the Earth pass away. If Jesus said that the Law hasn't passed away then it hasn't.


This is what I mean, that it is interpreted wrongly and not that “scripture” contradicts itself but it isn't clear to some so they take some other view over Jesus and what he actually said..


Chose Jesus and his Word over others if in doubt was what I was trying to say.


I do not believe that Scripture contradicts itself, but we have to answer correctly if some say it does. Otherwise why do you think so many people believe so many different interpretations of the Scripture?


There are too many different teachings on it and only one can be right. Jesus.

 

[SimpleGardner]

My point before on this thread was “where this is an obvious contradiction I would rather believe Jesus”. I do understand what I am reading.


Some posts on this thread have quoted Paul on the Law yet Jesus said not one “jot or tittle shall pass from the Law”, putting Paul against what Jesus said but Paul doesn't say that.


I probably phrased it wrongly and meant to say “people's interpretation of scripture differ” not that Scripture contradicts itself (I do not think it does). But there are many views which are not clear which is why there are so many viewpoints! This is because Scripture is either read differently, interpreted differently (like speaking different languages/speaking in tongues for instance) and this leads to disagreements.


There would not be so many disagreements on the Law if everyone saw the same scripture. My point was that Jesus words must take precedence if in doubt or you can get into all sorts of squabbles on the Law. It's just a simple rule I use thats all, I am not saying the Word itself contradicts itself but if Jesus is the Word then his is the real Word over others (if in doubt)


For instance. The Thief on the Cross. Some say that Jesus was saying (in so many words) “Today (I say to you Today) you will be with me in paradise” which is daft. Everyone knows it's “Today”. He meant TODAY you will be with me in Paradise. If he said TODAY then he must mean TODAY. That is how I mean contradictions in interpretation. I believe if Jesus said TODAY because he actually meant TODAY! Not “ I say this TODAY”. It doesn't even make any sense to interpret it that way but some obviously do. Some even say the comma is in the wrong place putting the whole grammar of the Scripture in doubt.


There are so many Bibles now and the reason some passages may seem so contradictory is simply that different books, and even different passages in one book, were written by different authors with different theological and political viewpoints. The interpretation of the Law is one point of contention or the 4 Gospels and so is the Penitent Thief on the Cross another good example.


As many quote Paul (wrongly by the way as he never says the Law is done away with at all) and do not answer when I ask them what Jesus meant when he clearly says the Law still stands until Heaven and the Earth pass away. If Jesus said that the Law hasn't passed away then it hasn't.


This is what I mean, that it is interpreted wrongly and not that “scripture” contradicts itself but it isn't clear to some so they take some other view over Jesus and what he actually said..


Chose Jesus and his Word over others if in doubt was what I was trying to say.


I do not believe that Scripture contradicts itself, but we have to answer correctly if some say it does. Otherwise why do you think so many people believe so many different interpretations of the Scripture?


There are too many different teachings on it and only one can be right. Jesus.

Nicely Said.

SG

 

[SimpleGardner]

have you read Romans yet?

Peter's comment is not license for you to ignore or discard it.

Sadly, Talking with you is often similar to talking to a voice recording.

SG

 

[gb9]

My point before on this thread was “where this is an obvious contradiction I would rather believe Jesus”. I do understand what I am reading.


Some posts on this thread have quoted Paul on the Law yet Jesus said not one “jot or tittle shall pass from the Law”, putting Paul against what Jesus said but Paul doesn't say that.


I probably phrased it wrongly and meant to say “people's interpretation of scripture differ” not that Scripture contradicts itself (I do not think it does). But there are many views which are not clear which is why there are so many viewpoints! This is because Scripture is either read differently, interpreted differently (like speaking different languages/speaking in tongues for instance) and this leads to disagreements.


There would not be so many disagreements on the Law if everyone saw the same scripture. My point was that Jesus words must take precedence if in doubt or you can get into all sorts of squabbles on the Law. It's just a simple rule I use thats all, I am not saying the Word itself contradicts itself but if Jesus is the Word then his is the real Word over others (if in doubt)


For instance. The Thief on the Cross. Some say that Jesus was saying (in so many words) “Today (I say to you Today) you will be with me in paradise” which is daft. Everyone knows it's “Today”. He meant TODAY you will be with me in Paradise. If he said TODAY then he must mean TODAY. That is how I mean contradictions in interpretation. I believe if Jesus said TODAY because he actually meant TODAY! Not “ I say this TODAY”. It doesn't even make any sense to interpret it that way but some obviously do. Some even say the comma is in the wrong place putting the whole grammar of the Scripture in doubt.


There are so many Bibles now and the reason some passages may seem so contradictory is simply that different books, and even different passages in one book, were written by different authors with different theological and political viewpoints. The interpretation of the Law is one point of contention or the 4 Gospels and so is the Penitent Thief on the Cross another good example.


As many quote Paul (wrongly by the way as he never says the Law is done away with at all) and do not answer when I ask them what Jesus meant when he clearly says the Law still stands until Heaven and the Earth pass away. If Jesus said that the Law hasn't passed away then it hasn't.


This is what I mean, that it is interpreted wrongly and not that “scripture” contradicts itself but it isn't clear to some so they take some other view over Jesus and what he actually said..


Chose Jesus and his Word over others if in doubt was what I was trying to say.


I do not believe that Scripture contradicts itself, but we have to answer correctly if some say it does. Otherwise why do you think so many people believe so many different interpretations of the Scripture?


There are too many different teachings on it and only one can be right. Jesus.

this would settle the whole thing.

if you judeaizers would simply accept that the Law is NOT divided into parts ( one word, one Law).
also, gentiles never had the Law.

and, nine of the ten Commands were repeated in the N.T, with the Sabbath NOT being one, so keeping the jewish Sabbath is not required for Christ followers.

if you liars would accept these FACTS, and stop saying silly stuff like Peter was bad-mouthing Paul in His 2nd letter that would be great. Peter bad-mouthed Paul. just silly theology .

 

[gb9]

Sadly, Talking with you is often similar to talking to a voice recording.

SG

could it be there is a reason why you avoid talking about Romans??

 

[posthuman]

Some posts on this thread have quoted Paul on the Law yet Jesus said not one “jot or tittle shall pass from the Law”, putting Paul against what Jesus said but Paul doesn't say that.

Romans 6, 7, and 8.

we have died and our life is hid in Christ. Colossians 3:3.
the law does not govern those who have died.

your own death is a pretty important event in your existence.
it's a pretty important thing about the gospel to keep in mind, too.
i agree it's pretty odd to see a number of people daily writing in this thread and overlooking such a salient fact.

 

[posthuman]

Sadly, Talking with you is often similar to talking to a voice recording.

SG

when's the last time you considered anything in Romans?

 

[Heyjude]

Hi Heyjude, nice to meet you!

I've heard of this idea that maybe there is a conflict between what Jesus said when he walked here on Earth and what the apostles later wrote in their Epistles.

One thing a person may wish to consider is who is likely to have a better understanding of what Jesus meant? Those who grew up in the same culture and spoke the same native language? Or those of us today, 2000 years later?

I think another interesting question is, who wrote the book of Matthew? If it was an apostle who wrote down the words of Jesus in that book, then what happens if an apostle can't be trusted?

Well I guess there are 4 Gospels for that reason and like all viewpoints they vary slightly like any witness accounts. But they mostly agree I think. Why is Christianity not all of one viewpoint?


World Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries.


There cannot be 33,000 different representations of Jesus. No one should doubt the Apostles but Bibles can differ in their interpretation and many people don't actually read the Bible but listen to the Preachers without reading it at all.


Most Churches in the UK quote Paul more than Jesus although I am not sure why this is.

But disputes over whether some of Mark is dubious or whether Jesus preached to Noah's people or not are just mistranslation errors which do not help. That is why I stick to the KJV because it's written in the simplest language. I do not know all the answers but I know that people's beliefs on this forum differ greatly. How can that be?


Just read the “speaking in tongues” posts on earlier today. All the posts quote the same Scripture but they read them differently or “interpret” them differently.

thinking that Jesus and His apostles are saying different things is not something you should be comfortable with believing.

I do not think that Jesus and His apostles are saying different things it is just "interpreted" to be that way by some. Jesus made clear all his words and if some say they contradict others statements (or appear to do so to them) then Jesus is the first to believe is what I meant. I was especially talking about what Jesus said about the Law which was some on here say is done away with.

 

[posthuman]

why do you think so many people believe so many different interpretations of the Scripture?

primarily two things IMO:

1. ignorance of what scripture actually says, coupled with being led astray by false teaching that is attractive to ones vanity and lusts
2. willful rejection of what scripture actually says in favor of what people wish scripture to say - this is often the latter end of those who have been drawn away by false teaching, and then having been corrected, reject the correction and, being puffed up with pride, continue on eisegeting what they read, twisting the word to their own ruin.

so you have the blind, and then the willfully blind.

 

[posthuman]

I do not think that Jesus and His apostles are saying different things it is just "interpreted" to be that way by some.

hooray!

I was especially talking about what Jesus said about the Law which was some on here say is done away with.

why don't Christians make blood sacrifices and offerings or stone people to death for offenses?

 

[Heyjude]

hooray!



why don't Christians make blood sacrifices and offerings or stone people to death for offenses?

God said he was “sick of the sacrifices” because they were being done in rote, and people's hearts were in the wrong place. God wants people's hearts and love, not their animal sacrifices.


Look it up. He wants obedience rather than sacrifice. When people are two-faced, disobey and then try to cover it up with a good deed, a sacrifice, it is hypocrisy. Nobody likes that, why would God? Read Isaiah 1 where he says he is sick of them or

Hebrews 10:4 - "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. "


The ceremonial law related specifically to Israel’s worship (see Lev 1:2-3, for example). Its primary purpose was to point forward to Jesus Christ; these laws, therefore, were no longer necessary after Jesus’ death and resurrection.


The moral law (such as the Ten Commandments) is the direct command of God, and it requires strict obedience (see Exod 20:13, for example). The moral law reveals the nature and will of God, and it still applies today. Jesus obeyed the moral law completely.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Well I guess there are 4 Gospels for that reason and like all viewpoints they vary slightly like any witness accounts. But they mostly agree I think. Why is Christianity not all of one viewpoint?


World Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries.


There cannot be 33,000 different representations of Jesus. No one should doubt the Apostles but Bibles can differ in their interpretation and many people don't actually read the Bible but listen to the Preachers without reading it at all.


Most Churches in the UK quote Paul more than Jesus although I am not sure why this is.

But disputes over whether some of Mark is dubious or whether Jesus preached to Noah's people or not are just mistranslation errors which do not help. That is why I stick to the KJV because it's written in the simplest language. I do not know all the answers but I know that people's beliefs on this forum differ greatly. How can that be?


Just read the “speaking in tongues” posts on earlier today. All the posts quote the same Scripture but they read them differently or “interpret” them differently.


I do not think that Jesus and His apostles are saying different things it is just "interpreted" to be that way by some. Jesus made clear all his words and if some say they contradict others statements (or appear to do so to them) then Jesus is the first to believe is what I meant. I was especially talking about what Jesus said about the Law which was some on here say is done away with.

HeyJude,

We read of a "great deception", a "falling away", a "waxing cold" in the "last days" and it would not be a stretch to see the common denominator as "obedience to God" This would not be the first time the adversary "threw men under the bus" spiritually speaking or attempted to such as in Yahshua's case. But this would explain the variations and contradictions. "A deception so great"! illustrates the power of the deception! Those deceived will argue the Godliness of their lawlessness to the point of amazement!

Your fallback onto Yahshua's words when in doubt is wise rather than having Yahshua fall on you!
Your observation on "this could be a test" has occurred to me too! But I often see the seeming contradictions as an easily opened gateway to the false sense of salvation without sanctification. God sees heart choices this way.

There are so many things at play here...

SG