True or False - "Another Jesus"?

[posthuman]

i dont think Jesus came to abolish and change anything, that would be a new religion and you dont have Jesus saying anything like that anywhere.

believe Me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
(John 4:21)

the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4:23-24)

now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
(Romans 7:6)​

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I would suggest you study more. Your pride and indignation are glaringly apparent in those words that escape your mind and heart and appear here among us all. Judge not lest ye be judged but when ye judge do not judge by appearance but use righteous judgement.
You offend in the former and lack the latter. You are not in that display one who appears united with our Lord.

You are offended at those who speak here as Jesus taught. The law has not passed away as long as heaven and earth exist. What you do not realize and by your spirit we know this is, the law is love.
Your words toward Grace911 and all of us does not reflect love as Christ meant it to be perfected. Save for love of yourself in your braggadocio. That is love of self and that is a sin that leads to no good place. The Book of Romans chapter 2. And the Book of James chapter 3.

If it be God's will may he open your eyes in time.

So, you are quoting this:

Matthew 5:17-19 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(ESV Strong's)

I will take the stance that the Law here refers to the Mosaic Law.

It says that NOT ONE IOTA, NOR A DOT, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Since we know that the Temple system has passed away, and that is part of the Law, then you cannot use these verses to claim the Mosaic Law is still in effect. It says NOT ONE IOTA, NOR A DOT.

And pardon me if I don't examine your words carefully, and match them to Scripture. It is not pride and arrogance to do so. If someone doesn't stand up to Judaizer claims, folks will think what they teach is true.

Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes.

I am rather tame compared to the Apostle Paul, who called them dogs.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I have never said works save or justify so that part of your report does not apply to me.

The Sabbath has not been done away with, that is false and ever shall be. Jesus exampled the Sabbath and contrary to the Pharisee's angst having witnessed it, did work, healed, on Sabbath day because Jesus was Lord who created the Sabbath in the beginning.

27 "And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." The Book of Mark chapter 2

"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." The Book of Matthew chapter 5 verses 17 through 18

The Apostle Saint Paul Book of Romans chapter 7 verse 12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."
A once Pharisee's observations is for naught? Do we rewrite the Bible to occasion our own will for ourselves and yet call ourselves in Christ who was God Almighty? Who reiterated the laws of the ten commands and then sought they be ignored after He left the Earth?
There is not one scripture that says that which was made for man is by God's new ordinance no longer applicable; Sabbath.
We are all one in Christ. There is no separation. No Jew, no Greek, no Gentile, no male, no female. The Book of Galatians chapter 3 verse 28.
Why then do you attempt to segregate The Words intentions by speaking against that fact as told to us by Saint Paul, who was the most learned of all Christ's Apostles. Especially in matters of God's law.

As for unclean meats, God knew what he was talking about. We in America have an FDA, Food and Drug Administration, designated by our government to oversee and monitor what can be called the marketing of clean foods. Long before FDA there was GOD.
You'll find that what is designated unclean by God is actually foul for human consumption. It is not a Jewish thing. It is a God thing.

These things are not ways to work to be saved as we know. These things are guidance and wisdom until all is fulfilled, which has not yet been accomplished in Messiah prophecy. We know there is only one way to be saved. Not eating pork is not one of those ways. Christ is the only way.

"Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." The Book of Colossians chapter 2 verse 8

I addressed your use of Matt 5:17-20 in a previous post and showed how, if you are consistent, you must claim that all has been fulfilled, as the Temple system and Levitical priesthood was part of the Law. The verses say NOT ONE JOT OR TITTLE, which means not one thing has passed away, until all is fulfilled. So, if we accept your interpretation and we are consistent, the Mosaic Law doesn't apply anymore. And I have listed a half dozen Scriptures that say this, too.

The Mosaic economy is no longer in effect.

The subject of days and meats is addressed in Col 2:16-17, as well as other passages throughout the NT. We know that Gentiles are not bound by these laws, and they are a matter of personal conscience. There may be health ramifications regarding these foods, but the same is true of physical circumcision (men who are uncircumcised are more subject to infections or cancer, for example). However, we know physical circumcision isn't a requirement for the NT male believer (some are thanking God for this).

As I have said, though, the "lawkeeper" is really a "lawbreaker" because there are tons of laws in the Mosaic Law that they do not observe. I have pointed one out, which is the requirement for all males to attend the festivals in Jerusalem (Deut 16:16). There is no other place authorized for festival observance in order to fulfill the Mosaic Law.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

is there a chance pentecostals and conservative evangelicals might be right?

what do you believe personally? how do you interpret the land promises? the church doesnt have the land and many gentiles dont even care about it. i dont care about the land of israel. i like the north where i live, cold climate. israel climate is horrible

so will i one day inherit the land?

do you spiritualize land promises or what?

No, I don't think there's a chance they are right.

But, it is hard to use the word "they" in regards to dispensationalists as there are so many different variations. Defining their doctrine is elusive. it is like nailing jello to the wall.

I also want to mention that I am a conservative evangelical, and I don't believe in dispensationalism. And, neither do a lot of non-American Christians. Dispensationalism for some reason took hold in the USA, whereas it did not take hold in Europe, Great Britain, and other places very well.

Regarding inheriting the land, all those in Jesus Christ will inherit the entire world.

This is one big issue I have with dispensationalism. They don't realize that there can be a difference between the OT promises and the NT fulfillment.

For instance, Abraham's descendants don't receive the land of Israel alone, they receive the whole world, because they have been joined with Christ, and Christ has conquered. Since they are joined with Christ, they share his inheritance.

See Romans 4 in reference to this. Abraham's promise isn't limited to the land of Palestine. It is the entire world.

Additionally, they tend to segregate believers into Jew and Gentile, and there is only one people of God, composed of both. This isn't anti-Semitism, it is an acknowledgement that Jesus has joined all into one man. See Ephesians 2 for this. The doctrine of union with Christ is very important, and because dispensationalism has been taught, few have a good understanding of it.

I would suggest studying how the NT uses OT quotes in relation to all of this. The NT elaborates and expands promises made to Israel and applies them to the Church in some incidences. It cannot be ignored, and those who ignore this don't understand correctly.

I also recommend reading the book by Kim Riddlebarger on amillennialism in this regard. He covers the problems with the dispensationalist system.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I would suggest you study more. Your pride and indignation are glaringly apparent in those words that escape your mind and heart and appear here among us all. Judge not lest ye be judged but when ye judge do not judge by appearance but use righteous judgement.
You offend in the former and lack the latter. You are not in that display one who appears united with our Lord.

You are offended at those who speak here as Jesus taught. The law has not passed away as long as heaven and earth exist. What you do not realize and by your spirit we know this is, the law is love.
Your words toward Grace911 and all of us does not reflect love as Christ meant it to be perfected. Save for love of yourself in your braggadocio. That is love of self and that is a sin that leads to no good place. The Book of Romans chapter 2. And the Book of James chapter 3.

If it be God's will may he open your eyes in time.

By the way, regarding your claims that I am prideful and arrogant, you are simply attempting to exalt your claims above mine because I've mounted some resistance to them. I was a "lawkeeper" so I realize what your foundation is, and I am able to address it. Your experience may not align 100% with mine, but I know what typical "lawkeepers" claim.

Do you claim that keeping the Sabbath is a sign of a true believer, and those who observe Sunday are under the Mark of the Beast, or will be under the Mark of the Beast?

This is the one facet of my former belief system that I found particularly grievous. And, many Sabbathkeepers believe this.

By the way, my position is that it was perfectly appropriate to observe Sunday because it is the eighth day, and the believer has entered into the new creation. The full consummation isn't here, but it began at the resurrection when Jesus received his resurrection body. This occurred on the eighth day (Sunday).

The number "8" is associated with new beginnings. I have found comments in the church fathers to support this view as well. Israelite children were baptized on the eighth day, and circumcision means a "new creation", no longer in Adam.

This would require some level of flexible thinking to understand, though. Those who can hear, I hope you benefit

 

[jaybird88]

then answer my questions. why dont christians circumcise people like o.t. teaches? why dont you sacrifice animals like o.t teaches and even Jesus says to do to some people in His earthly ministry?

all hebrew roots people are hypocrites and its sickening to me. they are not saved.

maybe fopr the the same reason the Jews back in the old days didnt raise armies and conquer everyone in the name of Judaism because they were not circumcised.

 

[jaybird88]

if the priesthood be changed, ​

then of necessity must there be a change of the law. ​

(Hebrews 7:12) ​

​

In that He saith a new, He hath abrogated the old: ​

now that which is disannulled and waxed old, is ready to vanish away. ​

(Hebrews 8:13)​

who is your high priest, Jaybird?
Jesus Christ, a Levite, or none at all?

mine would be Jesus.
is yours Jesus or Paul?

 

[jaybird88]

​

believe Me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.​

(John 4:21)​

​

the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. ​

(John 4:23-24)​

​

now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.​

(Romans 7:6)​

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

 

[UnderGrace]

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Exactly, how could he fulfill something that He came to abolish.

 

[posthuman]

mine would be Jesus.

it is impossible that Jesus is your priest if you are under the law found in the Torah.

Jesus is not Levite, and Jesus does not continually offer the blood of goats and bulls.

i dont think Jesus came to abolish and change anything, that would be a new religion and you dont have Jesus saying anything like that anywhere.

it is impossible that Jesus can be your priest if He didn't change anything. the law forbids Him to serve as priest under it.
if He didn't change anything, you're still just a Gentile alienated from God, with no priest at all unless you become a proselyte of Judaism, and then you can have a Levite priest, but that priest cannot even offer the first sacrifice for you because the temple has been destroyed, neither for his own sanctification, so no Levite can be sanctified as priest for you. it's Jesus or no priest, or the priest of a pagan god. thems the choices.

it is impossible that Jesus is your priest and you are also under the law.
you are either not under the law, or Jesus is not your priest.

if Jesus is truly your priest, you are under a different law.

 

[posthuman]

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

love is the fulfillment of the law

 

[jaybird88]

it is impossible that Jesus is your priest if you are under the law found in the Torah.

Jesus is not Levite, and Jesus does not continually offer the blood of goats and bulls.




it is impossible that Jesus can be your priest if He didn't change anything. the law forbids Him to serve as priest under it.
if He didn't change anything, you're still just a Gentile alienated from God, with no priest at all unless you become a proselyte of Judaism, and then you can have a Levite priest, but that priest cannot even offer the first sacrifice for you because the temple has been destroyed, neither for his own sanctification, so no Levite can be sanctified as priest for you. it's Jesus or no priest, or the priest of a pagan god. thems the choices.

it is impossible that Jesus is your priest and you are also under the law.
you are either not under the law, or Jesus is not your priest.

if Jesus is truly your priest, you are under a different law.

so if Jesus comes down here, follows the law, and i follow that example, Jesus is not my priest? that makes no sense to me.

 

[posthuman]

so if Jesus comes down here, follows the law, and i follow that example, Jesus is not my priest? that makes no sense to me.

is that what i said? no, that is not what i said.


Jesus is not Levite.
Jesus cannot be priest under the law.
if there has been a change in priesthood, then there has to have been a change in law.

Hebrews 7 & 8.
it's not hard.

if Jesus is your priest, you ain't under the law, because if you were, He cannot possibly be your priest.
so you're wrong if you think He didn't come to change anything.
if He didn't change anything, we're all in big trouble. the law says only Levites can serve as priests, and requires daily sacrifices, and demands that they can only be made at the temple in Jerusalem. that ain't been happening and ain't about to be. so we're all under the righteous wrath of God in that case.

Peter told Gentiles that they are being made into a kingdom of priests for our God.
something is radically different.

 

[Whispered]

Someone mentioned in another thread here that it’s the Spirit that is written in our heart. That’s all I can say about it because I agree it’s Holy Spirit that we are baptized into, and He has all the attributes of God for Hebis the Spirit of God.

But, I know from experience that the Word I needed as I grew in the Lord came up out of me to my mind when I needed. And even a part of a scripture that I would have to search out. And even a scripture that I had no remembrance of.

So they the Spirit and the Word work together.

I know what you mean because I too have had those experiences.
Scripture will come into my mind at the precise moment I need its wisdom to take that next step. Or, I will see in the moment I'm in the intention of God's plan and why it is happening due to something prior that made way for this new lesson. In those moments I've learned to release my own expectation of control and to let God work it out. Because I learned from experience that when I thought to do it my way instead of following that inner voice of His Holy Spirit to do something other that it always turned out badly. But when I heeded that voice, that leading of the Spirit it worked out perfectly.
Even little things.

Like the other day. I went to the grocery for one item. Amazingly I left with one item. That rarely happens for me. I'll see something else I forgot I needed and end up needing a cart.

But the other day I walked in with one thing in mind, mineral water six pack. As I entered I brought a cart with me that was nearly going into the driveway in front of the store. To save someones cart getting hit I grabbed it and brought it in the store with me just as an employee was on her way out to retrieve it. We laughed at the timing.

That voice inside said, you should take the cart with you shopping. But me knowing I needed only one item thought not. So I didn't.

As I left the cart in the cart room I go into the store and half way through and almost to the water isle I see a lady with a huge arm full of stuff. Had I heeded Spirit's words I could have offered her that cart I brought with me and that I did not need. But she did.
I looked around and there wasn't another cart anywhere to bring to her. I looked back and by then she was gone almost to the registers.

Simple things, a simple lesson. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live.

 

[Whispered]

I can see the value of division for a space of time but now is the time of joining. And put our focus solely on Jesus. Word/ Spirit.

Good point.
We are to watch for those that seek to divide us and avoid such people. While as we have been told by the Apostle Saint Paul, we who are in Christ are one. There is no division.
I think in these times as signs are appearing that lead me to think God's plan for what is called the end times are arriving. Or so it seems. I could be wrong. Stranger things have happened.
I find if I take a moment when the Spirit speaks to me, as He did with the cart in the grocer, and release my thoughts to go the way I'd planned and follow the leading of the Spirit that life flows beautifully. And it feels right too.
It is a graduation I think. Learning to let go and hearken unto the leading by that which is greater than myself.
Don't second guess the Holy Spirit. Respect your elders.

 

[Melach]

No, I don't think there's a chance they are right.

But, it is hard to use the word "they" in regards to dispensationalists as there are so many different variations. Defining their doctrine is elusive. it is like nailing jello to the wall.

I also want to mention that I am a conservative evangelical, and I don't believe in dispensationalism. And, neither do a lot of non-American Christians. Dispensationalism for some reason took hold in the USA, whereas it did not take hold in Europe, Great Britain, and other places very well.

Regarding inheriting the land, all those in Jesus Christ will inherit the entire world.

This is one big issue I have with dispensationalism. They don't realize that there can be a difference between the OT promises and the NT fulfillment.

For instance, Abraham's descendants don't receive the land of Israel alone, they receive the whole world, because they have been joined with Christ, and Christ has conquered. Since they are joined with Christ, they share his inheritance.

See Romans 4 in reference to this. Abraham's promise isn't limited to the land of Palestine. It is the entire world.

Additionally, they tend to segregate believers into Jew and Gentile, and there is only one people of God, composed of both. This isn't anti-Semitism, it is an acknowledgement that Jesus has joined all into one man. See Ephesians 2 for this. The doctrine of union with Christ is very important, and because dispensationalism has been taught, few have a good understanding of it.

I would suggest studying how the NT uses OT quotes in relation to all of this. The NT elaborates and expands promises made to Israel and applies them to the Church in some incidences. It cannot be ignored, and those who ignore this don't understand correctly.

I also recommend reading the book by Kim Riddlebarger on amillennialism in this regard. He covers the problems with the dispensationalist system.

i used to be amill actually. i appreciate your attitude.

what made me stop be amil was the tremendous mental tricks needed to make revelation 20 make sense. first resurrection is spiritual, yet rest of the dead lived not until the millennium has passed. contrasting the resurrections. do the lost also get spiritual resurection of course not. but that is offtopic im sorry.

thanks for answer. i agree that its one people in God thru Christ btw.

 

[Whispered]

​

rise, Peter, kill and eat​

Yes, that verse in Acts 10 was God's way of telling Peter the laws of Moss were done away. Nailed to the cross. However, the meaning goes deeper I think. Holy Spirit knows all things. As such the Spirit was aware of Peter's hunger and thirst. In a transitional tone telling Peter to rise and eat, making what was formerly unclean deemed clean so as to sustain Peter's life and quell his hunger, so too does this apply to that seeming prohibition of Gentiles being brought into the flock of the Messiah. The distinction between Jew and Gentile was done away just as was the distinction between clean and unclean meats.

 

[Whispered]

I just wonder when heaven is not going to exist... that is pass away?

Jesus seems to have known the answer. Hence his use of those words to assure the jurisdiction of the law.

 

[Grace911]

then answer my questions. why dont christians circumcise people like o.t. teaches? why dont you sacrifice animals like o.t teaches and even Jesus says to do to some people in His earthly ministry?

all hebrew roots people are hypocrites and its sickening to me. they are not saved.

Why? Because Christians are to be obedient to the law of the land they live in. We here in America cannot take vengeance or take God's law and use it to stone some poor sinner. That is against the law of the land of USA. God also has a law that says we are not to murder. There is a fine line between a citizen stoning the unconvicted and the state which allows the death penalty to the convicted, and even within that system there are multiple hands in the killing so that not one person alone is committing the act.

Jesus was brought a woman who was caught in the act of adultery. But Jesus could not sentence her to death, because the Roman law was in force. The old testament law was also being violated by those who brought her to Jesus because the law requires both caught in the act would be brought before the Israel judge (Sanhedrine- a group of 70 men), but because they were under Roman law it mattered not that they failed to follow the Torah law. There is a lot more to that story that can be gleaned, but my point is that Jesus then, and us now, must abide by the law that we are under.

Now the question is, is there a law of the land that forbids believers from resting from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. No, we are currently free to do that if we so choose. It does "mark us". Just like when I see a man with a kippot, I can usually tell if he is Catholic or Jewish. If I see a woman with long hair tied up a certain way and wearing a skirt, I am usually right that she is of the Pentecost faith. There are many examples as this. You recognize something about people who dress or wear their hair in a certain way. So it is with the LORD God and Jesus, they have marked their followers with those who follow the Sabbath rest on a certain day.

Do I get angry with men wearing kippots? No. Do I get angry at a woman who has long hair bound up and a skirt on? No. Do I get angry with Christians who choose to wear tzitzit and they are not Jewish? No.

They are no laws of the USA that prevent any one from their right to religious belief of their choosing or calling. So why are there Christians who think (because they do not know for themselves) that there are prohibitions of following any OT practices or even Jesus' practices in today's world of 2019.

D0 you feel judged? So that you must judge those who have full liberty of conscious to observe their faith in any Biblical manner they choose? I pray for those who think it is ok for a man to be sexually with another man or for women who practice homosexuality. I know God through the Holy Spirit can cause a sinner to change. I can still show true godly kind of love to sinners. Now, as a woman, if I fear bodily harm, I have enough wisdom to stay on my side of the street and avoid personal contact with maniacs. But fear not those who just exhibit their faith differently than you feel or believe. Never say never, because I want time I learned through my church that the old testament was nailed to the cross, we can eat anything we want, we can work 7 days and never stop for a rest, but you can rest on any old day, it matters not to God because He only looks at your heart intentions and not your actual actions. But does the Bible say that or is that a "tradition of man" who is really rebelling against Christ and Him and His Father are one, and neither ever ever change? Satan is the master of taking some truth and mixing some untruth together and telling us, your alright. Go on and do as you desire to do. You don't need to "come out of her, my people". You can't escape the Babylonian practices that surround you, so the lie goes from Satan and his deceived.

Joh 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

 

[Whispered]

So, you are quoting this:

Matthew 5:17-19 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(ESV Strong's)

I will take the stance that the Law here refers to the Mosaic Law.

It says that NOT ONE IOTA, NOR A DOT, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Since we know that the Temple system has passed away, and that is part of the Law, then you cannot use these verses to claim the Mosaic Law is still in effect. It says NOT ONE IOTA, NOR A DOT.

And pardon me if I don't examine your words carefully, and match them to Scripture. It is not pride and arrogance to do so. If someone doesn't stand up to Judaizer claims, folks will think what they teach is true.

Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes.

I am rather tame compared to the Apostle Paul, who called them dogs.

Ah that word, Judaizer.
How well Proverbs 26:5 forewarns of those who invoke it.