True or False - "Another Jesus"?

[UnitedWithChrist]

Paul in Acts 13 is an exercise in poignant unadulterated dispensational preaching.
There is no possible alternative to the fact the historical progression of revelation in the Bible.

I would read that whole chapter if I were you.

There's nothing about dispensationalism in it.

In fact, it says that Jesus, Paul and the apostles were the "light to the Gentiles" that the OT prophesied, not ancient Israel.

They were the fulfillment of prophecies made to Israel AT THAT TIME, and the church is the fulfillment today. They are the ones preaching to the Gentiles.

If I understand dispensationalism correctly, that isn't kosher in their worldview

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

early church was very premil too. didache, justin martyr, irenaeus, etc.

Right, and they definitely were not dispensationalists. Some comments were made by early church fathers concerning those who separate Jews from Gentiles like dispensationalists do.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Paul in Acts 13 is an exercise in poignant unadulterated dispensational preaching.
There is no possible alternative to the fact the historical progression of revelation in the Bible.

Since you bring this up, it is a good time to show how dispensationalists fall off the wagon when it comes to quotes from the OT about ancient Israel.

Here's the verse:

Acts 13:47 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,
“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
(ESV Strong's)

Paul says that AT THAT TIME, Jesus commanded them, saying that they (Paul and his friends) were a fulfillment of this verse.

Here's how DA Carson (a historical premillennialist) views the verse:


Acts 13:47 13:47 light for the Gentiles. Paul applies Isaiah’s Messianic prophecy concerning the servant of the Lord (Isa 49:6; cf. Isa 42:6) to himself and the other missionaries since the church carries out the Messiah’s mission to the world.
(NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible)

Here's how Wayne Grudem (another historical premillennialist) views the verse:

Acts 13:46 13:46–47 Citing Isa. 49:6, Paul stated he was now turning to the Gentiles. Paul and Barnabas can be seen as doing the work of the Servant because of their connection to Jesus. It was necessary to begin with the Jews since they were God's chosen people and had priority in salvation history (see note on Rom. 1:16). unworthy. Their stubborn resistance showed Paul that it would not be worthwhile for him to spend any more time trying to reason with them.
(ESV SB Notes)

Here's how John MacArthur (a premillennial dispensationalist) views the verse:

Acts 13:46-47 Acts 13:46 first to you. God offered the plan of salvation to the Jews first (Matt. 10:5–6 15:24; Luke 24:47; Rom. 1:16). Although the thrust of Paul’s ministry was to Gentiles, he had a desire to see Jews saved (Rom. 9:1–5 10:1), preaching to them first in many cities (see note on Acts 13:5). we are turning to the Gentiles. Because the Jews rejected the gospel. But God never planned salvation as an exclusive possession of the Jews (Isa. 42:1 6 49:6).
Acts 13:47 Quoted from Isa. 49:6.
(MacArthur Study Notes (ESV))

Notice how unclear MacArthur is, that these verses are being fulfilled in the apostles AT THAT TIME. Why? I think that he is wary of stepping on dispensationalist toes, who think that this prophecy will be fulfilled by Israel in the Millennium, and are not being fulfilled today by the Church.

They get a rash when verses about Israel are applied to the Church, because they believe in Separation Theology.

 

[Melach]

Son of, as well as, daughter of, in the Old Testament represent household kinship language or identity. There were no surnames as we have today in ancient Israel.
The Hebrew term, bet’ ab , would identify the father's household. While bet’ em would refer to the mother's household.
Therefore, in the bet'ab of Judah one who was a member of that house would be known as, for example, Joshua son of Nehemiah. Joshua bet’ ab Nehemiah.
Joshua of the household of Nehemiah.

Matrilineal descent is referenced in the Old Testament. Look to The Book of Ezra chapter 10 as well as The Book of Leviticus and chapter 7.

Matrilineal descent is also in not just the Torah but the Talmud, though it is an article of contention among some. With regard to the Torah Rabbi's will say Torah law does not change therefore Matrilineal descent shall remain as is.

surprise, nothing about matrilineal descent in those chapters.

another episode of proof-texting gone wrong.

Jesus was not a levite, Jesus was of judah. case closed. stonesoffire got it instantly you know why? because she has the Holy Spirit.

its not that difficult to understand. read the geneology of Jesus its judah. read book of hebrews that confirms it, says that because Jesus priesthood is of a different kind there is by necessity change in the law too.

this is why st.paul told us to avoid endless genealogies. thats where judaizing will take us.

 

[Lightskin]

The Jesus of modern-day Christianity all too often seems to be One who hated His Father's Law, especially the Sabbath day, and abolished it. He hated the holy days of YHWY, and abolished them.

I didn’t get past this ^^^^

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

surprise, nothing about matrilineal descent in those chapters.

another episode of proof-texting gone wrong.

Jesus was not a levite, Jesus was of judah. case closed. stonesoffire got it instantly you know why? because she has the Holy Spirit.

its not that difficult to understand. read the geneology of Jesus its judah. read book of hebrews that confirms it, says that because Jesus priesthood is of a different kind there is by necessity change in the law too.

this is why st.paul told us to avoid endless genealogies. thats where judaizing will take us.

Right, one cult leader who taught Judaizing claimed he was a descendant of King David. I think he only stopped at King David because he obviously can't claim to be descended from Jesus.

The Bible is so beautiful in that it anticipates the antics of false teachers and exposes them before we encounter them, if we read it carefully. And, obviously, this is due to the God who has all knowledge, past and present.

I just wonder how much he paid his "geneologist"

 

[cv5]

Since you bring this up, it is a good time to show how dispensationalists fall off the wagon when it comes to quotes from the OT about ancient Israel.

Here's the verse:

Acts 13:47 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,
“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
(ESV Strong's)

Paul says that AT THAT TIME, Jesus commanded them, saying that they (Paul and his friends) were a fulfillment of this verse.

Here's how DA Carson (a historical premillennialist) views the verse:


Acts 13:47 13:47 light for the Gentiles. Paul applies Isaiah’s Messianic prophecy concerning the servant of the Lord (Isa 49:6; cf. Isa 42:6) to himself and the other missionaries since the church carries out the Messiah’s mission to the world.
(NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible)

Here's how Wayne Grudem (another historical premillennialist) views the verse:

Acts 13:46 13:46–47 Citing Isa. 49:6, Paul stated he was now turning to the Gentiles. Paul and Barnabas can be seen as doing the work of the Servant because of their connection to Jesus. It was necessary to begin with the Jews since they were God's chosen people and had priority in salvation history (see note on Rom. 1:16). unworthy. Their stubborn resistance showed Paul that it would not be worthwhile for him to spend any more time trying to reason with them.
(ESV SB Notes)

Here's how John MacArthur (a premillennial dispensationalist) views the verse:

Acts 13:46-47 Acts 13:46 first to you. God offered the plan of salvation to the Jews first (Matt. 10:5–6 15:24; Luke 24:47; Rom. 1:16). Although the thrust of Paul’s ministry was to Gentiles, he had a desire to see Jews saved (Rom. 9:1–5 10:1), preaching to them first in many cities (see note on Acts 13:5). we are turning to the Gentiles. Because the Jews rejected the gospel. But God never planned salvation as an exclusive possession of the Jews (Isa. 42:1 6 49:6).
Acts 13:47 Quoted from Isa. 49:6.
(MacArthur Study Notes (ESV))

Notice how unclear MacArthur is, that these verses are being fulfilled in the apostles AT THAT TIME. Why? I think that he is wary of stepping on dispensationalist toes, who think that this prophecy will be fulfilled by Israel in the Millennium, and are not being fulfilled today by the Church.

They get a rash when verses about Israel are applied to the Church, because they believe in Separation Theology.

The abject fact that the mystery of the Church (foreordained in eternity past, consummated in the near future) being merely a phase of the fullness of the Plan of Redemption (as is the reconstitution of Israel) is dispensational boilerplate. And I can see that your error originates in your mistaken belief that Israel has been ultimately and finally rejected by God. Nothing in God's creation is further from the truth.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The abject fact that the mystery of the Church (foreordained in eternity past, consummated in the near future) being merely a phase of the fullness of the Plan of Redemption (as is the reconstitution of Israel) is dispensational boilerplate. And I can see that your error originates in your mistaken belief that Israel has been ultimately and finally rejected by God. Nothing in God's creation is further from the truth.

God will reject all those who reject Him, Jew and Gentile. The future is in union with Christ, not union with Abraham's physical body.

 

[cv5]

God will reject all those who reject Him, Jew and Gentile. The future is in union with Christ, not union with Abraham's physical body.

Sorry.... I have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Sorry.... I have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

My point is that those who are joined with Jesus (believers) inherit the earth, and all things that Jesus has inherited. Those who are not joined with Jesus, Jew or Gentile, don't inherit the earth, and all things that Jesus has inherited.

Physical descent is irrelevant. Union with Christ is the relevant factor. Read Ephesians 2.

 

[Whispered]

surprise, nothing about matrilineal descent in those chapters.

another episode of proof-texting gone wrong.

Jesus was not a levite, Jesus was of judah. case closed. stonesoffire got it instantly you know why? because she has the Holy Spirit.

its not that difficult to understand. read the geneology of Jesus its judah. read book of hebrews that confirms it, says that because Jesus priesthood is of a different kind there is by necessity change in the law too.

this is why st.paul told us to avoid endless genealogies. thats where judaizing will take us.

Far further than Christian antisemitism cloaked with the name of our beloved Lord born into a Jewish line, I assure you.
Perhaps you should seek the meaning of proof texting so as to not appear as one who is also foolish in your contempt for all things Hebrew. Jews and Rabbi's do know what they're talking about.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/601092/jewish/Why-Is-Jewishness-Matrilineal.htm

If it be God's will may He open your eyes and cleanse your heart in time.

 

[stonesoffire]

Far further than Christian antisemitism cloaked with the name of our beloved Lord born into a Jewish line, I assure you.
Perhaps you should seek the meaning of proof texting so as to not appear as one who is also foolish in your contempt for all things Hebrew. Jews and Rabbi's do know what they're talking about.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/601092/jewish/Why-Is-Jewishness-Matrilineal.htm

If it be God's will may He open your eyes and cleanse your heart in time.

There’s problems on both sides, Jewish Christians, Gentile Christians.

I can see the wisdom of the message that Jesus gave to Paul for if both sides adhere to the truth of the gospel or as Paul put, my gospel as given personally to me by Jesus, a revelation previously unknown to anyone.....then we can be one!

 

[stonesoffire]

I love the Jews and the nation of Israel. But, I married a Jew who lived in Israel, and is balanced with the love of His people, but the freedom of the gospel truth too, and corrected me in overazelousness of Jewish traditions.

We are separated now but still together. Lol. So separation not complete. Kind of like this situation with the whole body of Christ. 😉

 

[stonesoffire]

I love the Jews and the nation of Israel. But, I married a Jew who lived in Israel, and is balanced with the love of His people, but the freedom of the gospel truth too, and corrected me in overazelousness of Jewish traditions.

We are separated now but still together. Lol. So separation not complete. Kind of like this situation with the whole body of Christ. 😉

Overzealousness....autocorrect doesn’t always work. 😇

 

[Whispered]

There’s problems on both sides, Jewish Christians, Gentile Christians.

I can see the wisdom of the message that Jesus gave to Paul for if both sides adhere to the truth of the gospel or as Paul put, my gospel as given personally to me by Jesus, a revelation previously unknown to anyone.....then we can be one!

There are no Jewish Christians nor Gentile Christians. We are all one in Christ. There is no division of that nature. No Greek, no Hebrew, no Jew, Gentile, no male nor female. We are one body in Christ, one church of His Holy Spirit.
Jesus accomplished the prophecy of Messiah as the last sacrifice for the sins of the world. However, not all that pertains to Messiah prophecy is completed. Which is why Jesus said, until Heaven and Earth pass away, not one jot nor tittle will be removed from the law (of God) until all is accomplished.
Heaven and Earth are still here. The law of Moses as has been stated repeatedly and yet ignored by those for whom it serves, was nailed to the cross.
Jesus in his ministry reiterated the laws of God. Jesus taught on the Sabbath, the Apostles entered the temple on the Sabbath. They honored the Sabbath after Jesus departed to Heaven having ministered still for forty days after His resurrection. Having taught all that was intended to be known and spread as the Good News.

The KKK , Neo-Nazi's, White Supremacists, are adherents to the doctrine of Replacement Theology. Jesus came to unite, not divide the world. Replacement Theology doctrine paves the road to damnation. Always has always shall. One has but to encounter its disciples to realize the law of Love is not in them. We know them by their words.

 

[Whispered]

Overzealousness....autocorrect doesn’t always work. 😇

I knew what you meant when I read it the first time. Who corrects autocorrect?

 

[UnderGrace]

Far further than Christian antisemitism cloaked with the name of our beloved Lord born into a Jewish line, I assure you.
Perhaps you should seek the meaning of proof texting so as to not appear as one who is also foolish in your contempt for all things Hebrew. Jews and Rabbi's do know what they're talking about.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/601092/jewish/Why-Is-Jewishness-Matrilineal.htm

If it be God's will may He open your eyes and cleanse your heart in time.

Seems you put this above scripture... @stonesoffire posted the correct biblical truth regarding Jesus.

 

[Whispered]

Seems you put this above scripture... @stonesoffire posted the correct biblical truth regarding Jesus.

That would be incorrect.
If you scroll up you will see that what you posted as my quote was my response to Melach, not stonesoffire.
It's a long thread so I can understand it can be confusing scrolling down and all. No worries.

 

[Deade]

Regarding "second death", I believe it is a word-play with the "first resurrection". There is a first resurrection for all believers, and a second death for all unbelievers. Both of them happen at the same time.

Whoa! Train wreck right here!

I WAS a premillennialist, and find amillennialism more credible now. I think that the premillennial view isn't realistic.

Okay, I see the problem now.

i am historical premill

Ah ok..it would be my second choice. I am not totally locked into amillennialism. I am conducting a review, but I think it is the most credible. The other two aren't even worthy of consideration.

Okay, make up your mind, you are starting to make sense.

 

[Deade]

While it was impossible to not sin, ie Break a commandment and do my own thing, God also spelled out Blessings and Curses. If you chose to accept that the commandments were for our good, good instructions, for how we are to behave, good direction, the light upon our path, for how we are to be blessed and protected, OR we can find ourselves bucking against the LORD and His Son's instructions, refusing to believe that the whole Bible is applicable for our Christian walk today, and receive the curses.

The first use of the word "cursed" was in Genesis 3:14 and Satan was cursed.

Later we see God teaching His people the blessing and the curse.

Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
Deu 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
Deu 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Deu_12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Mal_3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

And Jesus is the author of the Book of Revelations

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Heb_13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever

If the above were not true, then I have nothing to believe in the Bible. Any contradictions to these words above, surely I in my flesh am misunderstanding and it is me that needs changing, because The Bible is either all true or a half truth created by Satan. I choose that the Bible is all truth and any changes I create and proclaim that I should be cursed.

Jesus did not come to change the Word, for He is the Word from the beginning to the end. The Holy Spirit is our COMFORTER who leads us to GOD'S TRUTHS.

Joh_17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Psa 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
Psa 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
Psa 19:11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

You just hang in there Grace911. You are doing well with your posts. You are doing so well you just gained me as a follower. This all looks well thought out.