NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO to all those questions. I do not believe in OSAS as many do. I truly believe there is more to it than just believing. Believing that Jesus Christ is the ONE and ONLY Way to Heaven is a MUST but only a first step. IF we believe, we must ENDURE believing no matter what. Once one loses belief and does not find it again, one loses all. IF we believe, we must love Christ. IF we love Christ, we must do what He Himself said: "IF you love ME, [THEN] keep my commandments" (the two great commandments which cover all things). Of course, we may strive to obey but we fail to do so from time to time and when we do, we have two choices: repent and be forgiven, our sins forgotten, and no punishment suffered OR don't repent and keep on sinning. If we repent genuinely and God knows if we do or not as He alone can read our hearts, we shall have eternal life. If we sin and refuse to repent, we shall have the lake of fire. Again, as I have repeated over and over, God wants none to perish but many will because they will put their will ahead of God's. God will force no one to come to Him or stay with Him. That has to be our choice. Salvation is a gift to ALL from God. As with all gifts, it can be accepted or rejected. If accepted, it can be kept forever or it can be lost by sinning and going one's own wrongful way as did the prodigal son and then as did the prodigal son, one can repent aka turn back to God aka change back to doing God's Will. If accepted and then lost by sinning, one may refuse to repent and just do his/her own will and abandon God and His Will and if one does so and never repents, one is choosing by his/her own free will to be condemned to the lake of fire for eternity. The latter would not be God's wish or God's doing but God ALLOWS us to make our own free will choices and to take the good or bad consequences of such. IF anyone ends up in the lake of fire for eternity, it will be because he/she remained an unbeliever or he/she believed but disobeyed and refused to repent. God will be like the prodigal son's father who loved his son but let him go his way and kept on loving him, missing him, wanting him back, but never forcing him to return. His son repented and returned to his father who welcomed him with open loving arms and celebrated his return as does Christ over finding one lost sheep and the prodigal son's father explained all this celebration as being because his son had been lost but now was found and had been dead but was now alive. This is the exact parallel to how God treats His prodigal children. Like the prodigal son, some of us prodigal children repent and return to God, our Heavenly Father, but some do not repent and do not return. ALL were offered the gift of Salvation and ALL could have it and keep it but EACH has to decide IF he/she will believe, love, obey, repent when he/she fails to obey and we all fail from time to time. If we remain saved, it is because we submitted to God and His Will. If we do not remain saved, it is because we chose to go our own way and never repent aka return and such is entirely on our heads as God did not make us do such and nor did Satan or anyone else .. it was our choice and ours alone .. no one to blame but ourselves. I do hope this will have others understand what I am saying and what I truly mean and believe as such is well supported in God's Holy Spirit inspired Word and Truth. Eternal life in heaven is for the victorious. Anyone who would be forced to go to heaven when he/she has CHOSEN to sin and not repent is not victorious and did not endure in doing God's Will but, instead, his/her own sinful unrepenting will and he/she perishes for such.
Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO to all those questions. I do not believe in OSAS as many do. I truly believe there is more to it than just believing. Believing that Jesus Christ is the ONE and ONLY Way to Heaven is a MUST but only a first step. IF we believe, we must ENDURE believing no matter what. Once one loses belief and does not find it again, one loses all. IF we believe, we must love Christ. IF we love Christ, we must do what He Himself said: "IF you love ME, [THEN] keep my commandments" (the two great commandments which cover all things). Of course, we may strive to obey but we fail to do so from time to time and when we do, we have two choices: repent and be forgiven, our sins forgotten, and no punishment suffered OR don't repent and keep on sinning. If we repent genuinely and God knows if we do or not as He alone can read our hearts, we shall have eternal life. If we sin and refuse to repent, we shall have the lake of fire. Again, as I have repeated over and over, God wants none to perish but many will because they will put their will ahead of God's. God will force no one to come to Him or stay with Him. That has to be our choice. Salvation is a gift to ALL from God. As with all gifts, it can be accepted or rejected. If accepted, it can be kept forever or it can be lost by sinning and going one's own wrongful way as did the prodigal son and then as did the prodigal son, one can repent aka turn back to God aka change back to doing God's Will. If accepted and then lost by sinning, one may refuse to repent and just do his/her own will and abandon God and His Will and if one does so and never repents, one is choosing by his/her own free will to be condemned to the lake of fire for eternity. The latter would not be God's wish or God's doing but God ALLOWS us to make our own free will choices and to take the good or bad consequences of such. IF anyone ends up in the lake of fire for eternity, it will be because he/she remained an unbeliever or he/she believed but disobeyed and refused to repent. God will be like the prodigal son's father who loved his son but let him go his way and kept on loving him, missing him, wanting him back, but never forcing him to return. His son repented and returned to his father who welcomed him with open loving arms and celebrated his return as does Christ over finding one lost sheep and the prodigal son's father explained all this celebration as being because his son had been lost but now was found and had been dead but was now alive. This is the exact parallel to how God treats His prodigal children. Like the prodigal son, some of us prodigal children repent and return to God, our Heavenly Father, but some do not repent and do not return. ALL were offered the gift of Salvation and ALL could have it and keep it but EACH has to decide IF he/she will believe, love, obey, repent when he/she fails to obey and we all fail from time to time. If we remain saved, it is because we submitted to God and His Will. If we do not remain saved, it is because we chose to go our own way and never repent aka return and such is entirely on our heads as God did not make us do such and nor did Satan or anyone else .. it was our choice and ours alone .. no one to blame but ourselves. I do hope this will have others understand what I am saying and what I truly mean and believe as such is well supported in God's Holy Spirit inspired Word and Truth. Eternal life in heaven is for the victorious. Anyone who would be forced to go to heaven when he/she has CHOSEN to sin and not repent is not victorious and did not endure in doing God's Will but, instead, his/her own sinful unrepenting will and he/she perishes for such.
So you are looking to save yourself based on the merits of your performance? Salvation by works? In regards to 1 Timothy 4:16, we are not passive in perservering in our faith, but it's not in our own power that we perservere. (1 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; 1 Peter 1:5) God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through perserverance in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well.
If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down and rope and pulled you out, "in a sense" you can say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope until that person pulled you out, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us.
Hi Margo.
Can I just ask that you break down your posts into paragraphs.
It makes it a lot easier to read.
Some do not read long unbroken posts.
So you are looking to save yourself based on the merits of your performance? Salvation by works? In regards to 1 Timothy 4:16, we are not passive in perservering in our faith, but it's not in our own power that we perservere. (1 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; 1 Peter 1:5) God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through perserverance in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well.
If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down and rope and pulled you out, "in a sense" you can say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope until that person pulled you out, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us.
I really believe the parable of the prodigal son clearly parallels we children of our Heavenly Father. When we go our own way, not by God's Will, we are prodigal children. God will allow us to go our own way and will keep on loving us and wanting us to come back to Him, but He won't force us. He will let aka ALLOW us to do our own thing but IF we later choose to come back to Him, He will welcome us with open loving arms and celebrate our return because we "were lost but now found" and "dead but now alive". By going our own way and choosing to sin, we chose to become lost and dead and God allowed such to happen but did not want that nor make it happen. IF we later repented aka returned to God, we were now found, not lost, and alive, not dead. God gives all but we must receive His all and not all receive it coz they choose not to. I am not talking about working aka earning Heaven as obeying is not work but, rather, simply choosing to do God's Will (and I do try but don't always manage, so I repent, and get back on track) and as with the person in the well, that person is saved by the one who pulls him/her out of the well but that person cannot save him/her if he/she does not take hold of the rope. God saves us but only if we take hold of the rope He throws to us and that rope is submitting to Him and His Word, His Truth, His Will. If we submit to such, He can and will save us. If we do not submit to such, He can't save us and such is not His failure, but our failure. The road to heaven and the gate are narrow and only a "few" find them. We know where the road and gate are but we must choose to stay on the road and enter through the gate. God will guide us through such IF we stay with Him but IF we choose to travel the broad road, God will ALLOW us to and we shall be choosing to end up in the lake of fire. God can and will save us IF we let Him and not all let Him. He WILL never force anyone to be saved. Again, it would be like doctor and patient. A doctor can cure some conditions we experience but only IF we follow his/her advice. We will not be healed IF we choose to ignore what the doctor advises. So, God can and will save us IF we do as He says - believe, love, obey, repent when disobedient.
So you are looking to save yourself based on the merits of your performance? Salvation by works? In regards to 1 Timothy 4:16, we are not passive in perservering in our faith, but it's not in our own power that we perservere. (1 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; 1 Peter 1:5) God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through perserverance in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well.
If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down and rope and pulled you out, "in a sense" you can say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope until that person pulled you out, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us.
So, do we 'save ourselves' 'in a sense'? is that what you are saying?
I do not know how mailmandan will respond but my response would be that only God can and does save BUT only IF we co-operate and submit to His Will aka Way to be saved. If we refuse to do as God commands, we refuse to let Him save us. We let go of the rope by turning to sin and not turning back. Sin leads to death and God leads to life and repentance returns us to God and life. No repentance keeps us on the path of sin leading to certain death. God offers - we accept. God gives - we receive. God keeps us - we stay with Him. Without our appropriate response, God's offer and His gift and His keeping us will not come to fruition, not by His failure but by ours as for us to choose death over life or lake of fire over heaven is most certainly failure on our part, not God's.
Rev 14:
12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”
God does not cause people to keep/obey His commands, if He does, then He failed Adam and whole humanity (God forbid).
How does a 3 year old get saved?
When answering the above, remember Jesus said, "if you don't become like little children, you will not inherit the kingdom of God".
I want to inherit the kingdom of God like a little child, please explain.
God reads our hearts and knows how much we believe in Him, love Him, try to obey Him, repent when we disobey. Just as healing of disease becomes easier the more we take the medicine prescribed as prescribed, the easier obedience becomes to God's Will, not our will, the more we do obey and the more readily we repent when we fail to obey. Repentance restores and strengthens and works as a healer in us so we more easily and more effectively endure in fighting against and overcoming sinfulness. GodFULLness is directly opposite to sinFULLness. We must choose to be FULL of God or FULL of sin as we cannot serve both - God and sin .. One or the other .. not both.
We do not try to obey Him, we MUST obey Him.
John 13:34A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so also you must love one another.
Are you looking to save yourself in the sense that you helped Christ save you? Are you looking for credit? We 'save ourselves' in the same 'sense' that we would save ourselves by grabbing a rope when we are stuck in a well (with no way out) and allowing the person at the top of the well to pull us out, but ultimately, the person who pulled us out of the well saved us, as I already explained in post #3,022.
How does a 3 year old get saved?
You tell us.
How does a little child inherit the kingdom of God.
Please tell us?
It's not by their works or obedience or their sin.
That's for sure.
Baby/Child card played again.
A 3 year old or baby will not know how to obey him.
So how much love and obedience does it take? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have loved and obeyed "enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you?
That would be salvation by works/based on the merit of performance.In regards to the prodigal son, when interpreting a parable, you need to examine the setting, who is being addressed and the purpose of why the parable is being told. In context, we see that the Pharisees and scribes complained about Jesus eating with sinners, so the Pharisees and scribes are being addressed and are being rebuked for criticizing Jesus for eating with sinners when they should have been rejoicing at the salvation of sinners.
Now certain people will argue that the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation) from Luke 15:32 based on certain translations which read: ..thy brother was dead, and is alive AGAIN (KJV) ..for your brother was dead and is alive AGAIN (NKJV) ..this brother of yours was dead and is alive AGAIN (NIV)
Others will argue that in this parable, being made "alive again" foreshadows the "born again" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually. *I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found (NAS).
Where is the must in your Bible that you read in the verse you quoted?
It's not in the various bibles I have.
I'm not saying we should not but you have used the word MUST and it ain't in that passage.
John 13:34-35
34 So now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other.35 Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.”
You have added MUST
@mailmandan will respond in love and compassion.
He will respond with his words backed up with Bible verses.
Yes, we MUST obey Him but some sinfulness takes many tries to overcome so we keep trying and trying and I believe repenting each time we fail at it does help strengthen us in being more effective - has worked for me. But, yes, we MUST obey Him and His commandments which are not "suggestions".
Obeying, doing, submitting or working out salvation is indeed scripturally base. It must be kept by the true believers, saved, redeemed as part of his growth. Obedience is not necessarily to be the agency that we are saved, keep to be saved, we are saved forever by grace through faith in what Christ did, not needing some extra effort from yours It must be God's way, not your way. It must be his works, not our works. It is the will of God for someone who doesn't believe Christ only saves to repent or perish!
Titus 3:5-7 King James Version (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
I think you need to understand some Bible words relative to salvation, this is perhaps you are confused. Of course, not all men were justified and not all are given life at Christ's death on the cross. It is true that Christ is the propitiation of the sins of the Apostles and to the whole world yet only those who respond by faith are to benefit it.
The fact, that the blood offering of Christ is for the sins of the whole world and that the complete benefits of Christ sacrifice are available only to those who by faith accept the provision for sin.
Romans 3:24-26 says:
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Of course, Adam is a good example of how his works could not save him.
Abraham is a good example that even without works yet believes in God has counted him for righteousness.
Romans 4:3-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.