Twinkling of an eye

Ahwatukee · Sep 7, 2019

Wall said:

Hello again Wall,

The following is a good explanation from "Got Questions" regarding the bride/church and the New Jerusalem, which is what Rev.21:9 is referring to and which I agree with:

In the eternal state, believers will have access to the heavenly city known as New Jerusalem, also called “the holy city” in Revelation 21:2 and 10. The New Jerusalem is not the church, but it takes on some of the church’s characteristics. In his vision of the end of the age, the apostle John sees the city coming down from heaven adorned “as a bride,” meaning that the city will be gloriously radiant and the inhabitants of the city, the redeemed of the Lord, will be holy and pure, wearing white garments of holiness and righteousness. Some have misinterpreted verse 9 to mean the holy city is the bride of Christ, but that cannot be because Christ died for His people, not for a city. The city is called the bride because it encompasses all who are the bride, just as all the students of a school are sometimes called “the school.”

Believers in Jesus Christ are the bride of Christ, and we wait with great anticipation for the day when we will be united with our Bridegroom. Until then, we remain faithful to Him and say with all the redeemed of the Lord, “Come, Lord Jesus!” (Revelation 22:20).

Absolutely · Sep 8, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
(Rev 3)

Those on fire for Jesus and obedient go in the rapture.
"Because you have kept my word"
Obedience,not just pedigree determines who goes and who stays.

"But pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the world"

The 10 virgins,only 5 were worthy

The one taken one left is also the same.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Jesus says it is the rapture in vs 42

Ahwatukee · Sep 8, 2019

Absolutely said:

I agree with you up to this point my friend, but in regards to the "one taken and the other left."

In consideration of the state of the world, if you are trying to convince me that half of the population of the earth is going to be caught up, I would have to greatly disagree. Besides, I have already shown you that the "one taken" group is being compared with those "taken" in the flood, which would make the comparison wicked to wicked and not wicked to righteous. That alone would tell me that those the "one taken" is not referring to the gathering of the church.

One taken = Those gathered and taken by the angels at the end of the age

Where are they going to be taken = Wherever the carcass/dead body is, there will the eagles/vultures gather which includes the "one taken" by the angels to be killed by the double-edged sword.

My friend, while I respect your view on this, we can only agree to disagree on this issue. I have studied this for decades, debating with many, taking into consideration all the related scriptures and therefore I will not be moved from my belief that the "one taken" group are the wicked who the angels gather first and take back to where Armageddon is taking place and to be killed by that double-edged sword that proceeds out of the Lords mouth.

Blessings!

Absolutely · Sep 11, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

Lets see what it SAYS;
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be...
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(SO WE HAVE A PRE JUDGEMENT SCENE...JESUS FRAMES INTO A PICTURE A PREJUDGEMENT SCENE)

40 THEN shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

(HUH?? DONT WE NEED A POST JUDGEMENT SCENE/DYNAMIC??)

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(More pretrib framing by Jesus...there is no commerce after the gt.)
And your template places a satan worshipper working alongside a born again believer and likewise a demon possesed in bed with a believer. On top of that you have placed commerce in a destroyed planet.

That alone debunks the idea that angels are harvesting wicked and leaving righteous.)

Still not convinced?

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

But maybe those pictures and commands are all we have?
Nope
Jesus continues to frame the one taken in the rapture.;
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

He is telling the righteous,not the wicked to be ready.

There is no 50% wicked harvested to Armageddon.

That is half the earths population saved and half unsaved (wearing the mark)

It just does not survive a test fit.

Where does it fit?
Here;

25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.......
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Like a glove.
Half the church not ready,no spark or fire in their walk,half ready and wise
.....and framed exactly like the one taken verses

WATCH AND BE READY

THE EXACT SAME DYNAMIC.
Jesus in mat 24 ends with the rapture and starts ch 25 with the rapture.

One taken,one left is 50%. Your template has half the world righteous going through the wrath till armageddon and half the worlds population taken(raptured) to armageddon.

Not plausable.

But it does fit the 50-50 virgin dynamic like a glove

Wall · Sep 14, 2019

another question

1 THES. 4 [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1COR.15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Will Job be amoung the dead in Christ who will be “changed” at the 1Cor.15 event?

1 CORINTHIANS 10[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all OUR FATHERS were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; [2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; [3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat; [4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they DRANK OF THAT SPIRITUAL ROCK that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.

Yes, according to scripture

JOB 14 [10] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?[11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:[12] So MAN LIETH DOWN, AND RISETH NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.

Job says after the heavens be no more, then shall his "change" come

2PET.3 [10] But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

Job says his "change" will come when the heavens be no more. Above scripture tells us the heavens be no more at the coming of the Day of the Lord. Which occurs {according to scripture} after the great tribulation

ISAIAH 34 [2] For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.[3] Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.[4] And all the host of HEAVEN SHALL BE DISSOLVED, and the heavens shall be rolled together AS A SCROLL: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. [8] For it is THE DAY OF THE LORD'S VENGEANCE, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

REVELATION 6 [12] And I beheld when he had opened THE SIXTH SEAL, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; ......[14] And the heaven departed AS A SCROLL when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places...... [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So scripture proves Job will be changed {in the twinkling of an eye} after the tribulation period on the Day of the Lord. So why wasnt he invited to the to Darbys pre-trib rapture

Wall · Sep 17, 2019

JOHN 3 [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN AGAIN, HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How CAN A MAN BE BORN WHEN HE IS OLD? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

JOB 14 [10] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?[11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:[12] So MAN LIETH DOWN, AND RISETH NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.

Not a coincedence

Wall · Sep 19, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

I myself dont know how many will be caught up, but i do know where they will be going after being caught up.

MATTHEW 24 [36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. [37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [40] Then SHALL TWO BE IN THE FIELD; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, and THE OTHER LEFT.

So where shall they be taken to? The rapturist say they will be taken to heaven.

ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and YE SHALL BE GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel. [13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

Here we find the Great Trumpet being blown {Last Trumpet} Seems were goin to Jerusalem. To the kingdom.

JEREMIAH 3 [12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou BACKSLIDING ISRAEL, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever. [13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord. [14] Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: and I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION: [15] And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. [16] And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the Lord, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the Lord: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. [17] AT THAT TIME THEY SHALL CALL JERUSALEM THE THRONE OF THE LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

I am married unto you! The bride! Are they goin to heaven as the Rapturist claim? Nope! Goin to Zion for the 1000 yr period of rest.

MATTHEW 24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In Matthew we find when this event happens. Its AFTER the tribulation on the Day of the Lord. Take note that the GREAT trumpet is blown in both Matt.24 and Isaiah 27. The Rapturist claim the "Last Trumpet" will be blown before the tribulation period. Simply read Matt. 24 and youll see scripture has a trumpet being blown AFTER the tribulation

Hevosmies · Sep 19, 2019

Wall said:

You didn't think this one through did you? If the resurrection/rapture doesnt happen before the HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY, that would mean NOBODY would get transformed or raptured into their glorified bodies, BECAUSE that would mean God would SLAUGHTER all of us Christians by destroying the heaven and the earth WHILE we are still in our regular bodies. Only after that our "change" will happen according to you

You tried so hard to tie together all the proof-texts, yet it FAILED miserably. Let this be a lesson to everyone, THINKING is not a SIN!

Wall · Sep 19, 2019

Hevosmies said:

No so my confused friend.

PROVERBS 3 [24] When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. [25] BE NOT AFRAID of sudden fear, neither OF THE DESOLATION OF THE WICKED, when it cometh. [26] For THE LORD SHALL BE THY CONFIDENCE, AND SHALL KEEP THY FOOT FROM BEING TAKEN.

The desolation of the wicked takes place on the return of Christ. Yup, the Day of the Lord. I guess you dont understand the power of God. He can and will protect us while the wicked are being destroyed.

ZEPH. 2 [1] Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; [2] Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER come upon you. [3] SEEK YE THE LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: IT MAY BE YE SHALL BE HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER.

Scripture above points out that we should seek the Lord BEFORE the “Day of the Lord”. We shall be hid during the Day of the Lords anger. The Rapturist claim they will be in heaven at this time. Guess they got that one wrong

JOHN 3 [12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? [13] And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, BUT HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Can any of you Rapturist tell me if scripture above will suddenly vanish from your bibles after you are raptured to heaven

Hevosmies · Sep 19, 2019

Wall said:

God can protect us somehow while He destroys the heaven and earth??? Without transforming us (rapture) to glorified bodies?

AIIGHT Then

John 3:12 is in the Bible still yes, but you need to look at the timeframe. The two witnesses ascend to heaven, at the time of Jesus' earthly ministry John 3:12 was indeed the case. But Jesus is the first of MANY as the Bible teaches, we will be LIKE HIM (Jesus) in the resurrection bodies

Absolutely · Sep 20, 2019

Hevosmies said:

Can you imagine how hard they had to look to find that issue with Job ?
Then put him all that doctrine to make a post trib rapture that is proven impossible?

Hevosmies · Sep 20, 2019

Absolutely said:

I dont mind post-trib rapture if the arguments are solid but this one from Job is just terrible.

I remember we had one preterist here make a thread about it defending amillennialism. He used the same argument from Job saying the resurrection only happens after the earth is gone.

WHICH AGAIN is SO DUMB that I cannot find a nice way to put it, its just a DUMB argument IM SORRY guys. That would mean GOD destroys His church with the wicked and then resurrects us AFTER the destruction of the earth!

Shut it down boys! Nothing to see here!

Wall · Sep 20, 2019

Hevosmies said:

The "church" is protected by God. Yes, He can do that! Nothing to see here!

PSALM 37 [34] WAIT ON THE LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, THOU SHALT SEE IT.

Yeah, theres somethin to see here! Where will we be waiting on the Lord? Trying to keep His ways? Yeah, right here on Gods green earth. And when He comes to destroy the wicked...were gonna see it happen

Hevosmies · Sep 20, 2019

Wall said:

HOW? I got an idea: How about He gives us a RESURRECTION BODY before He melts the earth?
THAT'LL WORK. If only we had any Scripture to prove that theory..... O WAIT we do. Before Noah's flood came, Noah entered the ark. Before Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed, Lot was taken out the city!

You realize the theory you are peddling is not even post-trib rapture? You would have to say that Jesus returns, destroys the earth and THEN resurrects/raptures us. WHICH IS RIDICILOUS
The correct order would be: Jesus returns, resurrects/raptures and THEN later on destroys the earth.

I dont know why im replying, if you dont give up this WILD THEORY, that nobody has ever heard of in church history!

Wall · Sep 20, 2019

Matthew 13:48-50 (KJV)
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Wall · Sep 20, 2019

Hevosmies said:

Youll notice that i post scripture to back up my "wild theory". You do not

Hevosmies · Sep 20, 2019

Wall said:

I just REFERENCED many verses. Oy vey!

Wall · Sep 20, 2019

Hevosmies said:

Its not my theory

1THES.4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

When 1Thes.4 takes place, what really happens? The rapturist would have you to believe we fly off to heaven. What do the scriptures say? Keep in mind that many Rapturist claim youll find nothing of the so called rapture in the book of the prophets {the old testament} but.... Surely thats not true

AMOS 3 [7] Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

EZEK.37
[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, and bring you into the land of Israel.
[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Theres THE DEAD IN CHRIST who rise first (1Thes.4). The first resurrection. But..... there not headin for heaven.

[21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will GATHER THEM on every side, and BRING THEM INTO THEIR OWN LAND:

Its the gathering of Gods people, THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AT HIS COMING. The gathering will be done in the twinkling of an eye. Not by public transit. And were all headin for the land of Israel as promised in the Word.

[24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
[25] And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

There are many that claim that this scripture is speaking about Isreal becoming a nation in 1948. Not so. They do not have one Shepherd over them. Nor is Christs tabernacle in their midst.

[26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will SET MY SANCTUARY IN THE MIDST OF THEM FOR EVERMORE. [27] MY TABERNACLE ALSO SHALL BE WITH THEM: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Verses 26 and 27. “And so shall we ever be with the Lord” {1Thes.4 v17}. Its quite obvious that 1Thes.4 and Ezek.37 are speaking of the same event. No so called rapture. But the gathering of Gods people to the kingdom

Theres my "wild theory" all wrapped up in scripture

Wall · Sep 20, 2019

Now? Can you show me even one scripture that says we are going to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event?

Wall · Sep 20, 2019

Hevosmies said:

Actually theres a few that believe as i do. A post trib "rapture", not to heaven but to the kingdom. Anyways......

Matthew 24:5 (KJV)
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Prophecy fulfilled

Twinkling of an eye

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