Galatian Conundrums

[FollowtheShepherd]

I didn`t ask how you view Paul. I`ve debated Hebrew Roots in the past so I already know.

I said you should believe what Paul said because he is affirmed by Acts and the epistles of Peter which you say you believe in.

I didn`t ask how you view Paul. I`ve debated Hebrew Roots in the past so I already know.

I said you should believe what Paul said because he is affirmed by Acts and the epistles of Peter which you say you believe in.

and I did anseer you multiple posts ago, you even replied to it:

The beginning of acts is written by Peter and the rest is recorded by Luke. Yes ACts and Peter's writings have nothing anti-word in them.

You continued to ask so I assuemd it was about Paul, after all this topis is about Paul's writings.

Also I find it funny how you already know my mind, you must be a mind reader? and how you classify me as "hebrew roots" very funny. Is that a smear tactic? Is this like here in modern times people throw around derogatory terms to classify others in groups so they can to any otsiders make them guilty of others peoples errors?

 

[RickStudies]

Also I find it funny how you already know my mind, you must be a mind reader? and how you classify me as "hebrew roots" very funny. Is that a smear tactic? Is this like here in modern times people throw around derogatory terms to classify others in groups so they can to any otsiders make them guilty of others peoples errors?

I`m not trying to do that to you and I don`t agree with the tactics often seen on this website of trying to win debate by personal attacks.

Your belief system is the same as many Hebrew Roots people and it would be surprising if you had not been exposed to their ideas. I think you have. Maybe even without realizing it because they often try to conceal their affiliation.

I press the epistle issue with you because if you don`t accept them as scripture then there is no point in me pointing out things that Paul said.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

I`m not trying to do that to you and I don`t agree with the tactics often seen on this website of trying to win debate by personal attacks.

Your belief system is the same as many Hebrew Roots people and it would be surprising if you had not been exposed to their ideas. I think you have. Maybe even without realizing it because they often try to conceal their affiliation.

I press the epistle issue with you because if you don`t accept them as scripture then there is no point in me pointing out things that Paul said.

THen I don;t see why you classified me with a group that I am not of, and certianly I do agree with them on some things like Jesus is the Messiah, there are things I agree with Catholics on, etc etc etc. But There are also things I disagree with hebrew roots on and all groups, and honeslty no 2 groups are the same.

I honestly think it's something that is so common in society that we probably all do it without realizing, stero typing people.

What strikes me about the main conversation we are having is, GOd sais Jesus is the one we should follow, yet not many people seem to quote Jesus or agree with His teachings, sure people say thats a good verse, but the doctrine seems very devoid of Jesus teachings.

What if we took at Jesus teachings and formed a doctrine from them, would that be ok?

What if we took at Jesus teachings and formed a doctrine devoid of them, would that be ok?

I hear people screaming Paul!!! but I dont hear many screaming Jesus even though the religion is supposedly from Jesus. Now each person is different and unique, but honestly I don't see much of Jesus doctrine believed, spoken taught and followed. It's like when Jesus words are ignored its no problem...

I believe Jesus and think His words are number 1. Peter, Paul, James, John, etc. are all fallible men, Jesus was perfect in walk, teaching, doctrine, etc. Can you read this and tell me His wrods are not above all others?

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words will not pass away.”

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

 

[Deade]

You asked about how I view Paul, I replied:

I think many people, just as 2 Peter warns, read Paul and think the law is "done away" and according to 2 Peter "carried away with the error of lawless"

I think Paul just like every other man is fallible, Jesus is not, Jesus is perfect. I think people read Paul's writings and toss Jesus out, think Paul is telling them the law is abolished and just as Peter warns they are "carried away with the error of lawless" Peter 2 says this right after mentioning Paul's writing are hard to understand and many people twist them...

Can you find one writer outside of Paul (establish everything in the mouth of 2 or 3 witensses) that even hint at the law being abolished?

If you can not is it possible that when people think the law is abolished they are doing exactly what 2 Peter warns of? Being "carried away with the error of lawless" from reading Paul.

Right on Follow, Paul was not introducing a doctrine of not keeping the law in Galatians.
You mention a scripture where Paul is speaking concerning some false teachings a few brought in. Here is the verse Gal. 2:4 "And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:"

That is what all the subsequent arguing about is refuting those false teachings. They were teaching extra things like separation (Gal. 2:12); then he went on to explain how we are justified by faith (vs. 13-21). All of Gal. 3 is about where our justification lies.

None of the law keepers in this forum think they are saved by keeping such laws. We are all saved by grace. Why do we constantly fight about where our salvation lies. We are free from the curse of the law. No amount of words is going to change that.

 

[RickStudies]

THen I don;t see why you classified me with a group that I am not of, and certianly I do agree with them on some things like Jesus is the Messiah, there are things I agree with Catholics on, etc etc etc. But There are also things I disagree with hebrew roots on and all groups, and honeslty no 2 groups are the same.

I honestly think it's something that is so common in society that we probably all do it without realizing, stero typing people.

What strikes me about the main conversation we are having is, GOd sais Jesus is the one we should follow, yet not many people seem to quote Jesus or agree with His teachings, sure people say thats a good verse, but the doctrine seems very devoid of Jesus teachings.

What if we took at Jesus teachings and formed a doctrine from them, would that be ok?

What if we took at Jesus teachings and formed a doctrine devoid of them, would that be ok?

I hear people screaming Paul!!! but I dont hear many screaming Jesus even though the religion is supposedly from Jesus. Now each person is different and unique, but honestly I don't see much of Jesus doctrine believed, spoken taught and followed. It's like when Jesus words are ignored its no problem...

I believe Jesus and think His words are number 1. Peter, Paul, James, John, etc. are all fallible men, Jesus was perfect in walk, teaching, doctrine, etc. Can you read this and tell me His wrods are not above all others?

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words will not pass away.”

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

I was a bit heated when you came onto this scene but I think you misunderstood me. I was trying to determine if there was a chance you would recieve some insight into some scriptures I would have brought to your attention. So far I`m not seeing it and was out to save both my time and yours. I`m not into meaningless debate which is what got me irritated at some members of this club. I apologize if I insulted you.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

I was a bit heated when you came onto this scene but I think you misunderstood me. I was trying to determine if there was a chance you would recieve some insight into some scriptures I would have brought to your attention. So far I`m not seeing it and was out to save both my time and yours. I`m not into meaningless debate which is what got me irritated at some members of this club. I apologize if I insulted you.

I get it, sometimes things are worded poorly and we can;t see people true intent.

But I have to ask why is it when I ask a hard question you never reply, some of those things I ask are to see if you (or anyone) can offer a view that makes sense while staying in line with the word as a whole. twice I posted a question concening you first post and got no reply. Again, im asking to see maybe you have something I have not though of, no matter how much we study single person will never know it all in a single lifetime.

 

[RickStudies]

I get it, sometimes things are worded poorly and we can;t see people true intent.

But I have to ask why is it when I ask a hard question you never reply, some of those things I ask are to see if you (or anyone) can offer a view that makes sense while staying in line with the word as a whole. twice I posted a question concening you first post and got no reply. Again, im asking to see maybe you have something I have not though of, no matter how much we study single person will never know it all in a single lifetime.

I could answer your questions but I don`t think you would be ready to give them serious consideration. i.e. Paul spent three years in the desert recieving his gospel directly from Jesus Himself. His doctrines are doctrines of Jesus but you say well he was a man, a sinner and use it as an excuse to reject what doesn`t fit your belief system. I`ve already tried out that rabbit hole, I just don`t want to spend my time on it if it`s not going to get anywhere. You`ve already got people hammering you with Paul. You don`t need me.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

I could answer your questions but I don`t think you would be ready to give them serious consideration. i.e. Paul spent three years in the desert recieving his gospel directly from Jesus Himself. His doctrines are doctrines of Jesus but you say well he was a man, a sinner and use it as an excuse to reject what doesn`t fit your belief system. I`ve already tried out that rabbit hole, I just don`t want to spend my time on it if it`s not going to get anywhere. You`ve already got people hammering you with Paul. You don`t need me.

Well I fell as soon as I asked a tugh question you stopped replying and use this as an excuse. ok so you know the truth but you wont say it, wHy are you here then? to conceal truth? I does not make sense to me.

and please at least answer this for me;

do you believe Jesus words while in the flesh are still binding and valid for the new testament christian?

 

[RickStudies]

Well I fell as soon as I asked a tugh question you stopped replying and use this as an excuse. ok so you know the truth but you wont say it, wHy are you here then? to conceal truth? I does not make sense to me.

and please at least answer this for me;

do you believe Jesus words while in the flesh are still binding and valid for the new testament christian?

If there is a question that is really that important to you for me to answer then ask away.

To answer this question.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.


Yes I believe in Jesus words and I quote them often in defending what I believe. However, Jesus made some amendments through Paul`s gospel and through the rulings of the Jerusalem church regarding Gentiles. This renders some of the things Jesus commanded the Jews to do void. If you reject Paul`s epistles there is no way to prove that to you Biblically which is why Hebrew Roots reject Paul. Without Paul Hebrew Roots doctrine is perfectly fine apart from a couple passages in the book of Acts which they explain away.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

If there is a question that is really that important to you for me to answer then ask away.

To answer this question.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.


Yes I believe in Jesus words and I quote them often in defending what I believe. However, Jesus made some amendments through Paul`s gospel and through the rulings of the Jerusalem church regarding Gentiles. This renders some of the things Jesus commanded the Jews to do void. If you reject Paul`s epistles there is no way to prove that to you Biblically which is why Hebrew Roots reject Paul. Without Paul Hebrew Roots doctrine is perfectly fine apart from a couple passages in the book of Acts which they explain away.

I asked multiple times concerning tour first post.

But I have a question, do you believe these 2 passage, ad I will point out in bold the part im talkng about but quote more for completeness:

Did Jesus send all the 12 disciples to Hebrews and gentiles alike:

Matthew 28:19-20, " 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Are the words of Jesus in the flesh still 100% valid and does the holy spirit still teach these, since you said "However, Jesus made some amendments through Paul`s gospel" that to me say you believe Paul taught differently than Jesus, along with what I said how do you reconcile this verse?

John 14:23-26, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

I ask because to me this principles are key foundational doctrines, Mat 7:24-27 and it helps me to know where others are coming from.

Matthew 7:24-27, " 24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
.

I forgot to say this,

John 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd."

and what about being "grafted in"

As if we search the word we will see since ancient times non-Hebrew/non-Jews were grafted in by partaking in the Passover, that Passover is truly Jesus.

Exodus 12:48-49, " 48 If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. 49 There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”

Revelation 7:9, “After this I looked and saw a great crowd which no one was able to count, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, and palm branches in their hands.”

 

[RickStudies]

I asked multiple times concerning tour first post.

But I have a question, do you believe these 2 passage, ad I will point out in bold the part im talkng about but quote more for completeness:

Did Jesus send all the 12 disciples to Hebrews and gentiles alike:

Matthew 28:19-20, " 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Are the words of Jesus in the flesh still 100% valid and does the holy spirit still teach these, since you said "However, Jesus made some amendments through Paul`s gospel" that to me say you believe Paul taught differently than Jesus, along with what I said how do you reconcile this verse?

John 14:23-26, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

I ask because to me this principles are key foundational doctrines, Mat 7:24-27 and it helps me to know where others are coming from.

Matthew 7:24-27, " 24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

These two issues require a complicated answer. I was addressing these very issues in my "galatians" thread until I got shouted down by people who think personal attack and false accusation are legitimate debate tactics.

On the issue of "make disciples of all nations". The apostles were never able to convert Israel which is something they had to do before they could fulfill this commandment. The world was to come to Christ through the rise of Israel. Instead, Israel fell which is why they are still waiting for their glorious kingdom and golden age promised to them in prophecy.

On the issue of "bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you". It`s a gift of the Holy Spirit and one that I operate in. I answer questions off the top of my head, drawing on my memory of scripture. I look them up when I want to quote them exactly. I can wield a very large portion of the Bible right from my memory. Probably everything in red letters. Takes years of study to get there.

 

[RickStudies]

I forgot to say this,

John 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd."

and what about being "grafted in"

As if we search the word we will see since ancient times non-Hebrew/non-Jews were grafted in by partaking in the Passover, that Passover is truly Jesus.

Exodus 12:48-49, " 48 If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. 49 There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”

Revelation 7:9, “After this I looked and saw a great crowd which no one was able to count, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, and palm branches in their hands.”

All good questions but what do you expect my answers to do for you?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I could answer your questions but I don`t think you would be ready to give them serious consideration. i.e. Paul spent three years in the desert recieving his gospel directly from Jesus Himself. His doctrines are doctrines of Jesus but you say well he was a man, a sinner and use it as an excuse to reject what doesn`t fit your belief system.

Agreed.

And I would just insert, "the risen, glorified and ASCENDED, EXALTED Jesus Christ Himself"!

Amen!

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

These two issues require a complicated answer. I was addressing these very issues in my "galatians" thread until I got shouted down by people who think personal attack and false accusation are legitimate debate tactics.

On the issue of "make disciples of all nations". The apostles were never able to convert Israel which is something they had to do before they could fulfill this commandment. The world was to come to Christ through the rise of Israel. Instead, Israel fell which is why they are still waiting for their glorious kingdom and golden age promised to them in prophecy.

On the issue of "bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you". It`s a gift of the Holy Spirit and one that I operate in. I answer questions off the top of my head, drawing on my memory of scripture. I look them up when I want to quote them exactly. I can wield a very large portion of the Bible right from my memory. Probably everything in red letters. Takes years of study to get there.

FIrst thank you for having a conversation on some harder issues. I agree, becasue the word is so inter-woven even simple principles can be complex in completeness. Im not sure Im understanding your endpoint or maybe you didn't fully expound.

Are you saying that because the majority Israel didn't accept Jesus as Messiah that the disciples never went out to the nations? I would disagree because every blood Israelite was never going to accept, not 100% of them and in Acts 10 we see Peter going to gentiles and saying he is sent to gentiles in Acts 15.

On the other one also when Jesus said "these words I have spoken while still with you" and "bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you"

What I meant was do you believe Jesus doctrine is still 100% in force and that that spirit will bring this doctrine with no chages to our minds, also Im interested becasue you said Paul had some different revelations or something along those lines.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

All good questions but what do you expect my answers to do for you?

Well If I disagree (or even agree) with someone on something but they refuse to tell their wiew or share their revelations than how could I ever be pursuaded?

I ahve in the past quoted a verses and people that hold a differnt voew will just ignore said verses but still try to pursude me.

If said verse makes me think a certian thing is true but they will not even touch on said verse how could I ever see things differnt?

It would be like a muslim that said Islam is right, but then I ask them what about what Jesus said in these places in the gospels, and they just started quoting the koran or history books or something. But im like hey, what about hwat Jesus said, this is why I beleive what I beleive, but they ignore said words of Jesus, I could never be pursuaded because they are ignoring the reasons why I hold a certian belief.

 

[RickStudies]

FIrst thank you for having a conversation on some harder issues. I agree, becasue the word is so inter-woven even simple principles can be complex in completeness. Im not sure Im understanding your endpoint or maybe you didn't fully expound.

Are you saying that because the majority Israel didn't accept Jesus as Messiah that the disciples never went out to the nations? I would disagree because every blood Israelite was never going to accept, not 100% of them and in Acts 10 we see Peter going to gentiles and saying he is sent to gentiles in Acts 15.

On the other one also when Jesus said "these words I have spoken while still with you" and "bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you"

What I meant was do you believe Jesus doctrine is still 100% in force and that that spirit will bring this doctrine with no chages to our minds, also Im interested becasue you said Paul had some different revelations or something along those lines.

The apostles did not go out after Gentiles. Acts 10 was about 10 years after Acts 2-3. They did go to Jews living outside of Israel after the persecution in Acts 8. This is history 101. People who dispute what I`m saying don`t know their history.

Jesus doctrine is still in force apart from what He amended through Paul`s gospel.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

SO I am thinking that a big reason for my disagreements with a few members here is because my view of this passage:

John 14:23-26, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

Because He says :

“These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you....the Holy Spirit....bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

I fell like the foundation is what JEsus spoke in the flesh and the holy spirit would only teach in line with these words nothing different. But it seems, I may be mistaken, that a number of members here believe those words have changed saying like Paul had new and different revelations.

It kinds of reminds me of Marcion, not saying anyone here is a Marcionite, not at all, but there are similarities if people think Jesus words are gone or chaned or dont accept His 12 chosen disciples.

Marcionism was an Early Christian dualist belief system that originated in the teachings of Marcion of Sinope at Rome around the year 144. Marcion believed Jesus was the savior sent by God, and Paul the Apostle was his chief apostle, but he rejected the Hebrew Bible and the God of Israel. Marcionists believed that the wrathful Hebrew God was a separate and lower entity than the all-forgiving God of the New Testament, accepting some parts of the New Testament (Paul and Luke) but denying Christ's corporality and humanity and condemning the Creator God of the Old Testament.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

The apostles did not go out after Gentiles. Acts 10 was about 10 years after Acts 2-3. They did go to Jews living outside of Israel after the persecution in Acts 8. This is history 101. People who dispute what I`m saying don`t know their history.

Jesus doctrine is still in force apart from what He amended through Paul`s gospel.

But Peter himself said he was sent to gentiles

Acts 15:6-7, “So the apostles and the elders met to consider this statement. After a lengthy debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God chose me to be the one among you through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the gospel and believe."

and Peter did meet with cornelius, a gentile:

Acts 10:1-2, " 1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.

Acts 10:29 So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me.”

 

[RickStudies]

But Peter himself said he was sent to gentiles

Acts 15:6-7, “So the apostles and the elders met to consider this statement. After a lengthy debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God chose me to be the one among you through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the gospel and believe."

and Peter did meet with cornelius, a gentile:

Acts 10:1-2, " 1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.

Acts 10:29 So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me.”

You are starting at Acts 10 and it was only one household which is the reference in Acts 15.