Was Lot a carnal christian or unbeliever

[eternally-gratefull]

Nobody walked perfectly on earth other than Jesus, maybe you can go through and accuse everyone in the word that did God's will.

Why not attack

Jonah? he got in a boat to escape his duties

Moses? struck the rock twice

Abraham? doubted a old age child birth

Paul? he hunted, arrested and killed believers, ohh I bet you would never say this about Paul?

Yeah im done with this topic.

You can accuse Lot all you want, I would not advise it, but The word says:

2 Peter 2:7-8, " 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

Genesis 19:28-29, " 28 He looked off toward Sodom, Gomorrah, and the entire plain, and he saw smoke rising from the land like smoke from a furnace. 29 And so it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, He remembered Abraham and brought Lot out from the midst of the destruction when he overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.

Look at his life compared to Abraham,

Abraham learned from his mistakes, and his faith grew

Lot did not learn from his mistakes, and look what happened

It is night and day between these two.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Exactly. All have sinned. even those considered "righteous" and everyone did something displeasing, foolish or bad towards God. Even Moses murdered a man and buried him in the sand. And just to show he knew what he was doing, Scripture says, he looked to the left and the right before hand to make sure nobody saw.

"After looking in all directions to make sure no one was watching, Moses killed the Egyptian and hid the body in the sand". Exodus 2:12

Exactly, Abraham made some pretty grave sins too. He did nto even obey God at first and when he went into the land, he went in disobeying God

Yet look at Abraham's life vs lots

Abraham grew in faith, and at the end was a man of faith

Lot continued to serve his self. and never grew and in the end, was a man of God, but a man who never really grew in faith..

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Exactly. All have sinned. even those considered "righteous" and everyone did something displeasing, foolish or bad towards God. Even Moses murdered a man and buried him in the sand. And just to show he knew what he was doing, Scripture says, he looked to the left and the right before hand to make sure nobody saw.

"After looking in all directions to make sure no one was watching, Moses killed the Egyptian and hid the body in the sand". Exodus 2:12

This is true, and an example of God's mercy to those who turn to Him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is true, and an example of God's mercy to those who turn to Him.

Even when they are carnal, like Lot was

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Even when they are carnal, like Lot was

Right ... so when you see Lot in eternity, are you going to talk to him about his weakness? Maybe ask him why he wasn't more like Abraham?

or are you going to tell Lot what Peter wrote about him and give the glory to God due to Him for His immeasurable mercy and grace?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Right ... so when you see Lot in eternity, are you going to talk to him about his weakness? Maybe ask him why he wasn't more like Abraham?

or are you going to tell Lot what Peter wrote about him and give the glory to God due to Him for His immeasurable mercy and grace?

Nope

It is not about heaven

It is about when i see a carnal brother or sister, and how i can encourage them because god has not given up on them, like he did not Lot, and pray they see what happens by lots example, and wish to be more like abraham

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Right ... so when you see Lot in eternity, are you going to talk to him about his weakness? Maybe ask him why he wasn't more like Abraham?

or are you going to tell Lot what Peter wrote about him and give the glory to God due to Him for His immeasurable mercy and grace?

Oh, and also to let this who claim there is no such thing as a carnal christian, that they are wrong, stop judging because as romans 8 says, who can bring a charge to gods elect?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Nope

It is not about heaven

It is about when i see a carnal brother or sister, and how i can encourage them because god has not given up on them, like he did not Lot, and pray they see what happens by lots example, and wish to be more like abraham

God reveals Lot's example in 2 Peter 2 that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds.

God knew the heart of Lot and God judged Lot as a righteous man dwelling among sinners, seeing, hearing ... vexed with their unlawful deeds. That's what we know about Lot's heart, notwithstanding the fact that he looked at the plain and saw how green it was (Gen 13:10 says garden of the Lord) and he dwelled in the cities of the plain and pitched his tent toward sodom.

In Gen 19:9, the men who came to Lot's house to do those awful things to the "men" Lot was protecting said This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge. They were tired of Lot "judging" them ... telling them they could not do what they wanted. There is no indication Lot sat in the gate and assented to the unlawful deeds. What if Lot was a dissenting voice in the gate of Sodom? Just like we find ourselves today. We speak out against what we know is not according to God's Will and we are called "haters". Responses to our warnings are "don't judge".

When the two men appeared at the gate of the city, Lot offered his protection to them. Lot knew what the men of the city were like and he was more than hospitable to the two men. When they told Lot they would not go with him but would spend the night in the street, Lot insisted they come home with him. He made them a feast and baked unleavened bread for them.

Lot having been taught by Abraham, welcomed strangers and cared for them, just as Abraham had done in the previous chapter ... maybe not with the flair Abraham had done (Sarah made bread, Abraham fetched a calf, dressed it, took butter, and milk), but Lot made them a feast and baked unleavened bread (Gen 19:3).

Does that sound like a carnal believer to you? Wouldn't the carnal believer be the one who joins in and does the same things, rationalizing the behavior? Lot may have lived in Sodom but it doesn't appear that he joined in with the wicked men.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God reveals Lot's example in 2 Peter 2 that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds.

God knew the heart of Lot and God judged Lot as a righteous man dwelling among sinners, seeing, hearing ... vexed with their unlawful deeds. That's what we know about Lot's heart, notwithstanding the fact that he looked at the plain and saw how green it was (Gen 13:10 says garden of the Lord) and he dwelled in the cities of the plain and pitched his tent toward sodom.

In Gen 19:9, the men who came to Lot's house to do those awful things to the "men" Lot was protecting said This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge. They were tired of Lot "judging" them ... telling them they could not do what they wanted. There is no indication Lot sat in the gate and assented to the unlawful deeds. What if Lot was a dissenting voice in the gate of Sodom? Just like we find ourselves today. We speak out against what we know is not according to God's Will and we are called "haters". Responses to our warnings are "don't judge".

When the two men appeared at the gate of the city, Lot offered his protection to them. Lot knew what the men of the city were like and he was more than hospitable to the two men. When they told Lot they would not go with him but would spend the night in the street, Lot insisted they come home with him. He made them a feast and baked unleavened bread for them.

Lot having been taught by Abraham, welcomed strangers and cared for them, just as Abraham had done in the previous chapter ... maybe not with the flair Abraham had done (Sarah made bread, Abraham fetched a calf, dressed it, took butter, and milk), but Lot made them a feast and baked unleavened bread (Gen 19:3).

Does that sound like a carnal believer to you? Wouldn't the carnal believer be the one who joins in and does the same things, rationalizing the behavior? Lot may have lived in Sodom but it doesn't appear that he joined in with the wicked men.

Lot should have never been there to begin with

I do not think you read the whole thread, we went over this

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Oh, and also to let this who claim there is no such thing as a carnal christian, that they are wrong, stop judging because as romans 8 says, who can bring a charge to gods elect?

I know there are carnal christians. Scripture tells us so in 1 Cor 1-3.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I know there are carnal christians. Scripture tells us so in 1 Cor 1-3.

Some people disagree with you

I am not one of them

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Lot should have never been there to begin with

If we go back and read the whole record from the time God told Abraham to leave Haran, Lot should never have been with Abraham to begin with:

Genesis 12:

1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.


God told Abraham to leave his country, his kindred, his father's house. Abraham chose to bring Lot with him. Lot never should have been there, but Abraham brought Lot with him.

I do not think you read the whole thread, we went over this

I did read through the thread.

I just think God shows us the heart of Lot in 2 Peter 2. I am in agreement with Scripture concerning Lot. He was a righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds (2 Peter 2:8).

And if we read Gen 13, there was no strife between Abraham and Lot. The strife was between the herdmen of Abraham's stock and the herdmen of Lot's stock (Gen 13:8).

 

[maxwel]

God reveals Lot's example in 2 Peter 2 that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds.

God knew the heart of Lot and God judged Lot as a righteous man dwelling among sinners, seeing, hearing ... vexed with their unlawful deeds. That's what we know about Lot's heart, notwithstanding the fact that he looked at the plain and saw how green it was (Gen 13:10 says garden of the Lord) and he dwelled in the cities of the plain and pitched his tent toward sodom.

In Gen 19:9, the men who came to Lot's house to do those awful things to the "men" Lot was protecting said This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge. They were tired of Lot "judging" them ... telling them they could not do what they wanted. There is no indication Lot sat in the gate and assented to the unlawful deeds. What if Lot was a dissenting voice in the gate of Sodom? Just like we find ourselves today. We speak out against what we know is not according to God's Will and we are called "haters". Responses to our warnings are "don't judge".

When the two men appeared at the gate of the city, Lot offered his protection to them. Lot knew what the men of the city were like and he was more than hospitable to the two men. When they told Lot they would not go with him but would spend the night in the street, Lot insisted they come home with him. He made them a feast and baked unleavened bread for them.

Lot having been taught by Abraham, welcomed strangers and cared for them, just as Abraham had done in the previous chapter ... maybe not with the flair Abraham had done (Sarah made bread, Abraham fetched a calf, dressed it, took butter, and milk), but Lot made them a feast and baked unleavened bread (Gen 19:3).

Does that sound like a carnal believer to you? Wouldn't the carnal believer be the one who joins in and does the same things, rationalizing the behavior? Lot may have lived in Sodom but it doesn't appear that he joined in with the wicked men.

I don't think we have any indication Lot was ever doing anything right at all.
We have no indication he was making right judgements in the gate or anywhere else.
And Ge.19:9 simply doesn't give any specific reference to ANYTHING prior to the event at hand.... so to speculate it's referring to earlier incidents is just a speculation.

I can't see ANYTHING in the text to show Lot is righteous in ANY way that we would normally use the word "righteous" to describe.

I ONLY believe Lot was righteous because God said so.
Lot seemed, overall, like a pretty messed up guy.
But as I said in a previous post, sometimes the word "righteous" refers not to our behavior, but to our standing with God.

Lot was considered righteous in his standing with God.
It was probably in a similar way to our righteous standing with God.
It is something God does.

Lot was righteous in his STANDING with God.
Everyone on this forum, who is saved, is righteous in a particular sense, and that sense is in their STANDING with God.
No one has righteous standing before God because of their own human good works, we only have that righteous standing because of God's good works.... his grace.

Maybe somewhere down deep, below all the sin, and failure, and obstinance, and imprudence... maybe somewhere down deep Lot had a really tender heart toward God.
Maybe.
I really don't know.
But I also don't need to know.


Lot was a fallen human, a sinner, who had favor with god.

And you know what?
That sounds like every Christian I know.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Some people disagree with you

I am not one of them

Understood EG. Always a pleasure, sir.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If we go back and read the whole record from the time God told Abraham to leave Haran, Lot should never have been with Abraham to begin with:

Genesis 12:

1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.


God told Abraham to leave his country, his kindred, his father's house. Abraham chose to bring Lot with him. Lot never should have been there, but Abraham brought Lot with him.

True but this was abrahams sin not lots.

I did read through the thread.

I just think God shows us the heart of Lot in 2 Peter 2. I am in agreement with Scripture concerning Lot. He was a righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds (2 Peter 2:8).

And if we read Gen 13, there was no strife between Abraham and Lot. The strife was between the herdmen of Abraham's stock and the herdmen of Lot's stock (Gen 13:8).

Alot of people have no strife with walking believers

Yet they are still carnal.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Understood EG. Always a pleasure, sir.

Just sad that people think that way. I am glad you do not

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I can't see ANYTHING in the text to show Lot is righteous in ANY way that we would normally use the word "righteous" to describe.

I ONLY believe Lot was righteous because God said so.
Lot seemed, overall, like a pretty messed up guy.
But as I said in a previous post, sometimes the word "righteous" refers not to our behavior, but to our standing with God.

Lot was considered righteous in his standing with God.
It was probably in a similar way to our righteous standing with God.
It is something God does.

God says Lot was vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked (2 Peter 2:7) and also that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds (2 Peter 2:8).

Lot being vexed (tormented) with the filthy behavior of the wicked is indicative of his abhorrence of the unlawful deeds committed by the wicked. To me, this is more than "Lot was righteous because God said so". God reveals to us what was in Lot's heart as he saw and heard what went on around him.

Lot was a fallen human, a sinner, who had favor with god.

And you know what?
That sounds like every Christian I know.

Exactly.

 

[Shekinahglory]

Lot was a canal Christian he is said ti be a righteous man. while with Abraham a faminr strikes and Abraham looks arond, walking by sight. Down to edgypt a picture of the world both men are very successful and all they gained in the world became a problem and having lied to Pharaoh iy was rime to move. They headed out of Egyot and Abraham does something interesting he gives Lot choice when Abraham had been given the land and he should have chosen. Lot showing he has learned nothing looks around and sees all the lush green land by Sodom and still walking by sight heads down to Sodom. Abraham remain an alien and pilgrim. Lot moves next to Sodom rhen into Sodom and into the Gate which was where the government was. Lot wanted to stop te wickedness but instead of Lot getting rid of the leaven spread through hjs family. His spiritual time is not as full as Abraham and the woyld keeps disrupting his spiritual time. A case could be made this is happening to parts of the church who have settled into the politics of this country and the leaven is spreading through the church rather than them easing the evil. It took a rapture like experience to hget him out he lost almost everyone and the rwo who were saved were thorns in his side for the rest of his like,

sort for thr errors I have involuntary jerks and when I try to correct I jave to retype the entire sentence when it is just one letter wrong st timrs. Anything mot clear I would fix if needed, thanks