Not By Works

KJV1611 · Sep 24, 2019

VCO said:

You’re proving my point VCO. The newer translations using all these different terms for hell has gotten you confused. Hell IS Hades.

Abraham’s bosom was in hell. Lazarus was in hell. Hell is the place located in the lower parts of the earth and that’s where Jesus DESCENDED to.

Hell contains TWO SECTIONS. One is what most people Abraham’s bosom. A chasm separates Abraham’s bosom from the place of torment.

Abraham’s bosom is empty now. And when all the wicked are dead, hell will be been done, finished and it will be tossed in the lake of fire.

fredoheaven · Sep 24, 2019

VCO said:

I will try, but the evidence I gave was as Plain as the Nose on your face, in my opinion.

O.T. Saints, are those who believed GOD that HE would send a MESSIAH.

N.T. Saints, are those who believed GOD that HE did send a MESSIAH.

The same way HE saves everybody, as been the SAME WAY throughout history in both O.T. times and N.T. times.

Malachi 3:6 (NKJV)
6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

Therefore the same way HE SAVED ABRAHAM is the Same Way HE SAVED EVERYBODY.

Romans 4:3 (HCSB)
3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.

What did Abraham believed GOD, meant?

From the example of providing the Ram, he understood GOD WOULD PROVIDE A MESSIAH FOR THE ONCE FOR ALL TIME SACRIFICE.

THERFORE, the same destiny for true believers in N.T. Times, is the SAME as the Destiny of O.T. TIMES, HE SAID HE DOES NOT CHANGE.

2 Corinthians 5:8 (NKJV)
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

What's more, JESUS never did use the would CHURCH in his entire life, and Neither did the Apostles.
Translators inserted that WORD, "CHURCH" into our BIBLES.

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly,
and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

NOTICE: JESUS did not say the
BAD HALF OF HADES WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT.
View attachment 204410
HE KNEW THERE WAS ONLY ONE SET OF GATES.
and HE DID NOT CALL US THE CHURCH, HE CALLED US MY ASSEMBLY.

John 10:14-16 (ESV)
14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. [.At the Rapture.] [.And WE are the other sheep.]

Who is HE talking to ? ? ? Obviously the Last of the O.T. Assembly (O.T. Saints), because the Birthday of the N.T. Assembly (Church) is not until Pentecost after HIS Ascension. There is a time in the Future when the O.T. Saints and the N.T. Saints, will be ONE ASSEMBLY or FLOCK, at the Rapture. Move over Christians, the Dead in Christ includes the O.T. Saints.

WE ALL HAVE THE SAME FAITH ABOUT THE MESSIAH, THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM, AND THE EXACT SAME DESTINY.

Luke 16:23 (HCSB)
23 And being in torment in Hades, he looked up and saw Abraham a long way off, with Lazarus at his side.

Apparently human spirits in HADES, can see Believers IN HEAVEN, and it is part of their torment.

Fully agreed with you in the way of salvation but I do not subscribe when it comes to the translation of some Greek words. I think we have some discussions over the word "church" I just don't know what thread is that. But if you're a disciple of John Macarthur, you have to beleived church is still a good translation in the English Versions of the Bibles.

BTW, quoting Luke 16:23 in HCSB? I ask, is the word hades there a translation or a transliteration?

Thanks,

dcontroversal · Sep 24, 2019

KJV1611 said:

I don’t see how you can say that. I showed you Jesus speaking through David with Jesus being in place of suffering crying out to God.

The book of Jonah is all about Christ being in the belly of hell.

Jon 2:1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,

Jon 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Jon 2:3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

Jon 2:4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.

Jon 2:5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.

Jon 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Jon 2:7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.

Do you see what I’m saying?

I know what you are saying and you're wrong....end of story...the context points to the grave not HELL.....and Jesus was clear....he told the thief they would be IN PARADISE....NOT HELL....wake up man your interpretation is wrong!!

dcontroversal · Sep 24, 2019

UnderGrace said:

It utterly amazes me how some will say God used and inspired false teachers even though that contradicts the way God gave every book of the bible.....and then go so seed on said fallacy and end up worshipping a version which leads many astray over the God of the version......

KJV1611 · Sep 24, 2019

dcontroversal said:

You got any scripture to back that up?

VCO · Sep 24, 2019

KJV1611 said:

KJV is not an actual TRANSLATION it is a Paraphrase from Older English Translations with Know Errors.

Believe what you want, that is the facts.

Remember, I told your UNIQUE strange TERMS, would be the source of arguments.

Hell is the Lake of Fire in our Bibles.

(QOUTE)
Hell

The beast, false prophets, and the devil will be thrown into. Rev. 19:20; 20:10.

Body suffers in. Matt. 5:29; 10:28.

Described as

Devouring fire. Isa. 33:14.

Everlasting burnings. Isa. 33:14.

Everlasting fire. Matt. 25:41.

Everlasting punishment. Matt. 25:46.

Fire and brimstone. Rev. 14:10.

A furnace of fire. Matt. 13:42, 50.

A lake of fire. Rev. 20:15.

Unquenchable fire. Matt. 3:12.

Holman Concise Topical Concordance.
(END QUOTE)

UnderGrace · Sep 24, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Yes, so true and good point

VCO · Sep 24, 2019

KJV1611 said:

(QUOTE) dcontroversal had sad:

I know what you are saying and you're wrong....end of story...the context points to the grave not HELL.....and Jesus was clear....he told the thief they would be IN PARADISE....NOT HELL....wake up man your interpretation is wrong!! (END QUOTE)

I DO, here is the verses that PROVE that the PARADISE is HEAVEN the eternal dwelling place of GOD.

Luke 23:43 (NRSV)
43 He replied, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (ESV)
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—
4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.

The First Heaven is the Atmosphere above us, the Bible says Birds sour in it, and Clouds form in it.
The Second Heaven is where the Stars and Galaxies are in the Universe.
The Third Heaven is the Eternal Dwelling place of GOD, His Throne Room, were God's Holy Angels come from.

Revelation 2:7 (HCSB)
7 “Anyone who has an ear should listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. I will give the victor the right to eat
from the tree of life, which is in God’s paradise.

Revelation 22:1-4 (NASB)
1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.

Macabeus · Sep 24, 2019

KJV1611 said:

Ok, if by Hell you mean Hades, then your last post, this one is correct and any further disagreement would be a semantic one. That is, if I could change the word hell in your post to Hades in every instance, If by hell you mean Hades, what you JUST NOW said is true., ( except I don’t believe Hades is Hell). And if by hell they mean Gehenna, everything they said is true

Jesus did not go to Gehenna, He went to Hades. Acts 2:31

And I don’t think He went to the torment part, but I have to admit I haven’t studied that part sufficiently to be dogmatic about it

Edit, what VCO said about thief on cross and paradise is a compelling argument that paradise was the part of Hades, Jesus went to

KJV1611 · Sep 24, 2019

dcontroversal said:

You got any scripture to back that up?

KJV1611 · Sep 24, 2019

Macabeus said:

Ok, if by Hell you mean Hades, then your last post, this one is correct and any further disagreement would be a semantic one. That is, if I could change the word hell in your post to Hades in every instance, If by hell you mean Hades, what you JUST NOW said is true., ( except I don’t believe Hades is Hell). And if by hell they mean Gehenna, everything they said is true

Jesus did not go to Gehenna, He went to Hades. Acts 2:31

And I don’t think He went to the torment part, but I have to admit I haven’t studied that part sufficiently to be dogmatic about it

Edit, what VCO said about thief on cross and paradise is a compelling argument that paradise was the part of Hades, Jesus went to

Yes, hell and hades are the same. And yes the thief went to the paradise part of hell.

Macabeus · Sep 24, 2019

VCO said:

(QUOTE) dcontroversal had sad:

I know what you are saying and you're wrong....end of story...the context points to the grave not HELL.....and Jesus was clear....he told the thief they would be IN PARADISE....NOT HELL....wake up man your interpretation is wrong!! (END QUOTE)

I DO, here is the verses that PROVE that the PARADISE is HEAVEN the eternal dwelling place of GOD.

Luke 23:43 (NRSV)
43 He replied, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (ESV)
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—
4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.

The First Heaven is the Atmosphere above us, the Bible says Birds sour in it, and Clouds form in it.
The Second Heaven is where the Stars and Galaxies are in the Universe.
The Third Heaven is the Eternal Dwelling place of GOD, His Throne Room, were God's Holy Angels come from.

Revelation 2:7 (HCSB)
7 “Anyone who has an ear should listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. I will give the victor the right to eat
from the tree of life, which is in God’s paradise.

Revelation 22:1-4 (NASB)
1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.

Just for clarification, VCO. When Jesus said “this day you will be with me in paradise” (and you believe paradise there means heaven) do you hold that that means that Jesus the thief went to paradise in heaven that very day?

Macabeus · Sep 24, 2019

KJV1611 said:

Where did Jesus go for three days?

UnderGrace · Sep 24, 2019

KJV1611 said:

KJV you know this sounds funny right.... come on now just admit it.

KJV1611 · Sep 24, 2019

UnderGrace said:

That’s because most people have no idea what hell is.

The Bible doesn’t lie, if the Bible says Jesus went to hell then Jesus went to hell.... it’s that simple.

UnderGrace · Sep 24, 2019

KJV1611 said:

Could we then state the..... hell part of paradise

UnderGrace · Sep 24, 2019

KJV1611 said:

Well I have not done a word study on it, where one looks at the original language/word in context .... but I do know that sometimes the reference was to the grave.

KJV1611 · Sep 24, 2019

Macabeus said:

He went to hell. I’ve posted several passages where foreshadowing tells exactly what he did.

KJV1611 · Sep 24, 2019

UnderGrace said:

If you do original language studies you’ll be lost. But thats something you’ll have to discover for yourself.

KJV1611 · Sep 24, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Not sure what you mean. You mean use paradise instead of hell?

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