Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

Romans 12 teaches a transformational process.....that requires a period of growth, study and renewal of the mind....it is not instantly given.....NOW salvation, justification, being sanctified positionally and sealed ARE......but the OUTWARD man must be changed by growth and maturity which is described as an ongoing process of growth and maturity.....it is subject to successes and or failures and is tied directly to Romans 12:1-2.......as the man is changed inwardly by growth and maturity based upon a study of the word and application of the word they begin to change OUTWARDLY........for some this can be an accelerated process based upon the level of teaching they get and how they apply the word of GOD....for some it may be a very slow process if they are fed milk nonstop and never really apply what they learn.....This process is NOT hard to grasp and LIKE JESUS and others which constantly referenced creation which speaks loud and clear this can be seen easily.......

Take for instance my tame black berry plants.......I have about 20 planted......the ones that got more fertilizer, water etc. and were in better soil grew vines frmo 8 to 10 feet long this summer........the ones which had less fertilizer, water and were in soil a little harder and drier only put off about three foot vines.........

DAY unto DAY and NIGHT unto NIGHT sets forth KNOWLEDGE unless one is to challenged in an ocular manner to SEE..............

10 to 1 the ten foot vines bear more fruit than the three foot vines......NEXT YEAR

 

[dcontroversal]

I love the suggestion that if the Bible does not record it, no fruit has been produced. Moses did not produce a single fruit worthy of repentance before he started leading Israel

Faith worketh by love, God pours out love to our hearts, and it manifests righteousness. Its not just a positional standing with God but in conduct you remain the same, some "Protestants" teach it today but they are misinformed on the "Faith alone" held by Luther himself. Luther did not argue for a faith that produces nothing.

By faith we have these precious promises of God. We can do all things through Christ.

I never said that.......and congratulations.....you just proved you like to embellish like both of them......what does that make a man or woman into....when they embellish or suggest something that was said that was not said......I would say but then get rebuked for calling a spade a spade

And you you, as well as the other two entirely missed the point.........

 

[Macabeus]

Romans 12 teaches a transformational process.....that requires a period of growth, study and renewal of the mind....it is not instantly given.....NOW salvation, justification, being sanctified positionally and sealed ARE......but the OUTWARD man must be changed by growth and maturity which is described as an ongoing process of growth and maturity.....it is subject to successes and or failures and is tied directly to Romans 12:1-2.......as the man is changed inwardly by growth and maturity based upon a study of the word and application of the word they begin to change OUTWARDLY........for some this can be an accelerated process based upon the level of teaching they get and how they apply the word of GOD....for some it may be a very slow process if they are fed milk nonstop and never really apply what they learn.....This process is NOT hard to grasp and LIKE JESUS and others which constantly referenced creation which speaks loud and clear this can be seen easily.......

Take for instance my tame black berry plants.......I have about 20 planted......the ones that got more fertilizer, water etc. and were in better soil grew vines fro 8 to 10 feet long this summer........the ones which had less fertilizer, water and were in soil a little harder and drier only put off about three foot vines.........

DAY unto DAY and NIGHT unto NIGHT sets forth KNOWLEDGE unless one is to challenged in an ocular manner to SEE..............

10 to 1 the ten foot vines bear more fruit than the three foot vines......NEXT YEAR

Why do you always leave regeneration out?

 

[dcontroversal]

Interesting concept....when one that teaches salvation can be lost or is not given unto the end joins hand in hand with one that supposedly believes in eternal salvation and both embellish or skew what someone else has to say.........interesting.......What kind of fruit is that?????

 

[TooFastTurtle]

I'm not even sure at what point Moses came to know God. Does the Bible even say?

What text indicates that he knew God before the Burning Bush episode?

Exactly. It does amaze me that so much time is spent by the seminary educated doctorates of all stripes and colors to defend a dead faith.

They go back and forth the pages of the Bible, just to find something to hold on to, to justify their position. Maybe to ease their conscience? Look at this guy, he was saved, I can do that and be saved too. I have said it before and will say it again: God is not playing games. Paul told us to not test God as the jews did in the wilderness.

I have to unfortunately say this again, pre-emptively because I know the way people operate. "We never said that" "we are not defending sin". Just like dr. Charles Stanley, he teaches how to walk in the Spirit, he teaches against the negative consequences of sin, so I cannot say he is defending sin. Oh yes I can! Because I have seen and heard with my own eyes on his tv program where he answers a question and spills the beans that Yes a Christian can live anyway he wants and still be saved. Of course he then goes on to damage control mode, talking about how terrible your life will be in sin, how you will lose rewards and things of that kind.

But what did he just really do there? He just told people to go and sin some more, cause Jesus paid it all. Thats what the people listening at home heard, people dont care one bit about rewards or their testimony, if they can have their cake and eat it too, they will choose that. If they are still going to heaven, while in open willful defiant rebellion against God, they are happy. Anyone who has done any work in the field of evangelism or spreading the Gospel knows what I am saying is true.

Now praise God, this problem is only common in America, Europe, Australia, the western world at large. But if you go to the persecuted churches of Africa or Asia, or the ones that are on fire for God in Europe and America, they know the truth. They know they cant fool God. They know With Christ I can do all things (Except repent? Or is it a "process"?)
Even lost people seem to know this, because they judge some of the churches to be hypocrites, and rightly so, they say things such as "Why should I stop being gay, Jesus died for all my sins right?" and there is no good rebuttal to that from the easy-believism side.

Another thing I find hilarious is that me and others get called all sorts of names, but wait. Jesus paid for all my sins as well, and if according to you what I preach is heretical, isn't heresy just one sin among many? Nobody is perfect right? Jesus' blood covers that sin too, no worries. This is what you would be saying, if you were consistent in what you teach.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Outward sins are the measure of the state of the inward heart. If a person struggles for a time with a certain sin, it does not mean they lose their salvation. God will give them progressive victory over sin as they grow

But if someone says "I'm under grace, so the things in the texts you mentioned are permissable for me", they do not know Grace.

Amen and Amen!

I remember you saying you are not a Calvinist, but the way you talk about regeneration and preservation of the saints makes it sound like you are. I have said it all along: While I disagree with certain aspects of Calvinism, I appreciate the fact that they dont sweep repentance under the rug and preach holiness and repentance. I consider them brothers in Christ.

 

[dcontroversal]

The Greek word translated OF or FROM indicates source..........now think on that a bit........

So THAT NO MAN may BOAST.......why does the bible say this?

Who produces the fruit/works in a believer..........I can tell you by the following.....

MANY will come to me in that day saying LORD, LORD have we not DONE............bad day for them!

 

[Macabeus]

Why do you always leave regeneration out?

Romans 12 teaches a transformational process.....that requires a period of growth, study and renewal of the mind....it is not instantly given.....NOW salvation, justification, being sanctified positionally and sealed ARE......but the OUTWARD man must be changed by growth and maturity which is described as an ongoing process of growth and maturity.....it is subject to successes and or failures and is tied directly to Romans 12:1-2.......as the man is changed inwardly by growth and maturity based upon a study of the word and application of the word they begin to change OUTWARDLY........for some this can be an accelerated process based upon the level of teaching they get and how they apply the word of GOD....for some it may be a very slow process if they are fed milk nonstop and never really apply what they learn.....This process is NOT hard to grasp and LIKE JESUS and others which constantly referenced creation which speaks loud and clear this can be seen easily.......

Take for instance my tame black berry plants.......I have about 20 planted......the ones that got more fertilizer, water etc. and were in better soil grew vines frmo 8 to 10 feet long this summer........the ones which had less fertilizer, water and were in soil a little harder and drier only put off about three foot vines.........

DAY unto DAY and NIGHT unto NIGHT sets forth KNOWLEDGE unless one is to challenged in an ocular manner to SEE..............

10 to 1 the ten foot vines bear more fruit than the three foot vines......NEXT YEAR

This post is missing something. There is nothing about regeneration and it's effects. That is the piece that is missing in your soteriology, DC. Look at your post. No mention or inference to regeneration whatsoever.

Your doctrine of regeneration is a New Nature that is seperated and cut off from the person by a wall of flesh.

 

[dcontroversal]

Exactly. It does amaze me that so much time is spent by the seminary educated doctorates of all stripes and colors to defend a dead faith.

They go back and forth the pages of the Bible, just to find something to hold on to, to justify their position. Maybe to ease their conscience? Look at this guy, he was saved, I can do that and be saved too. I have said it before and will say it again: God is not playing games. Paul told us to not test God as the jews did in the wilderness.

I have to unfortunately say this again, pre-emptively because I know the way people operate. "We never said that" "we are not defending sin". Just like dr. Charles Stanley, he teaches how to walk in the Spirit, he teaches against the negative consequences of sin, so I cannot say he is defending sin. Oh yes I can! Because I have seen and heard with my own eyes on his tv program where he answers a question and spills the beans that Yes a Christian can live anyway he wants and still be saved. Of course he then goes on to damage control mode, talking about how terrible your life will be in sin, how you will lose rewards and things of that kind.

But what did he just really do there? He just told people to go and sin some more, cause Jesus paid it all. Thats what the people listening at home heard, people dont care one bit about rewards or their testimony, if they can have their cake and eat it too, they will choose that. If they are still going to heaven, while in open willful defiant rebellion against God, they are happy. Anyone who has done any work in the field of evangelism or spreading the Gospel knows what I am saying is true.

Now praise God, this problem is only common in America, Europe, Australia, the western world at large. But if you go to the persecuted churches of Africa or Asia, or the ones that are on fire for God in Europe and America, they know the truth. They know they cant fool God. They know With Christ I can do all things (Except repent? Or is it a "process"?)
Even lost people seem to know this, because they judge some of the churches to be hypocrites, and rightly so, they say things such as "Why should I stop being gay, Jesus died for all my sins right?" and there is no good rebuttal to that from the easy-believism side.

Another thing I find hilarious is that me and others get called all sorts of names, but wait. Jesus paid for all my sins as well, and if according to you what I preach is heretical, isn't heresy just one sin among many? Nobody is perfect right? Jesus' blood covers that sin too, no worries. This is what you would be saying, if you were consistent in what you teach.

Yeah they accused Paul of the same crap you do here in this post........think on that a a bit.....but I fully expect you to disregard the fact that you do the same thing by your verbiage above........funny as

 

[TooFastTurtle]

The Greek word translated OF or FROM indicates source..........now think on that a bit........

So THAT NO MAN may BOAST.......why does the bible say this?

Who produces the fruit/works in a believer..........I can tell you by the following.....

MANY will come to me in that day saying LORD, LORD have we not DONE............bad day for them!

It sure is a bad day, why? Because of those good works? Nope. Because of "trusting in works" which no born again Christian does? No. Because they are "workers of iniquity". Iniquity would be evil/sin. They have not repented and are still dead in their sins, much like many charismatic churches are filled with signs and wonders but no repentance, they are still working iniquity and are still worldly.

I have never heard of any Christian who boasts about their works or says they are saved because they did A B or C! They all believe its by God's grace anyone is saved.

Even if we kept the law perfectly after coming to faith, we would still need grace. Because returning to obedience does not merit forgiveness. Grace is needed.

 

[Macabeus]

Amen and Amen!

I remember you saying you are not a Calvinist, but the way you talk about regeneration and preservation of the saints makes it sound like you are. I have said it all along: While I disagree with certain aspects of Calvinism, I appreciate the fact that they dont sweep repentance under the rug and preach holiness and repentance. I consider them brothers in Christ.

I pretty much only hold to the P in Tulip. I have a different view than Calvinists on ULIP.

 

[Macabeus]

The Greek word translated OF or FROM indicates source..........now think on that a bit........

So THAT NO MAN may BOAST.......why does the bible say this?

Who produces the fruit/works in a believer..........I can tell you by the following.....

MANY will come to me in that day saying LORD, LORD have we not DONE............bad day for them!

No one denies that the source of the fruit is Jesus. But a new Christian has Jesus just as much as a person who has been saved 100 years.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

I pretty much only hold to the P in Tulip. And I don't know or claim to understand fully the doctrine of election. Total depravity, yes we cannot do anything unless God enables us and draws us. The rest, Limited Atonement and Irresistable grace I reject, except to say that atonement is only effected upon those who believe.

Good.

That is one of the philosophical questions the Calvinist likes to pose to us: If Christ died for all, then all are saved.

This L in TULIP is easily refuted by understanding atonement in the Torah. The way atonement works is that it was made for the entire nation of Israel, yet it did not benefit them at all unless they humbled themselves on that day of atonement. It all goes back to repentance and faith again.

 

[dcontroversal]

It sure is a bad day, why? Because of those good works? Nope. Because of "trusting in works" which no born again Christian does? No. Because they are "workers of iniquity". Iniquity would be evil/sin. They have not repented and are still dead in their sins, much like many charismatic churches are filled with signs and wonders but no repentance, they are still working iniquity and are still worldly.

I have never heard of any Christian who boasts about their works or says they are saved because they did A B or C! They all believe its by God's grace anyone is saved.

Even if we kept the law perfectly after coming to faith, we would still need grace. Because returning to obedience does not merit forgiveness. Grace is needed.

It is the blend that gives it away man......FAITH plus FOR.............like the Galatian assembly..........

Begin in the spirit <--FAITH
FINISHED by works of the law <----FLESH

Most teach this in some form or fashion........saved by faith but kept or maintained by some religious hoop jumping..............

And the reason they were found in iniquity is because they DID NOT trust CHRIST fully.........even though they identified him as LORD twice.....

Like JESUS said....YOU will die in your SINS because you do NOT BELIEVE I AM HE......

 

[Macabeus]

This post is missing something. There is nothing about regeneration and it's effects. That is the piece that is missing in your soteriology, DC. Look at your post. No mention or inference to regeneration whatsoever.

Your doctrine of regeneration is a New Nature that is seperated and cut off from the person by a wall of flesh.

 

[dcontroversal]

Why is it that the lawyers cannot grasp that the NEW COVENANT was ratified by the death of CHRIST and the OLD's ONLY application in this era is to CONDEMN those that have NOT BY FAITH acknowledged the NEW...........

OIL and WATER do not mix.......and the NEW SUPERCEDES the OLD

 

[Macabeus]

It is the blend that gives it away man......FAITH plus FOR.............like the Galatian assembly..........

Begin in the spirit <--FAITH
FINISHED by works of the law <----FLESH

Most teach this in some form or fashion........saved by faith but kept or maintained by some religious hoop jumping..............

And the reason they were found in iniquity is because they DID NOT trust CHRIST fully.........even though they identified him as LORD twice.....

Like JESUS said....YOU will die in your SINS because you do NOT BELIEVE I AM HE......

There is a plus. FAITH PLUS THE GRACE AND POWER OF GOD. I have never been talking about human works. Always about the works of God who raises the spiritually dead, cause the lame to walk and the blind to sea, and parts seas for His people to cross over

 

[TooFastTurtle]

It is the blend that gives it away man......FAITH plus FOR.............like the Galatian assembly..........

Begin in the spirit <--FAITH
FINISHED by works of the law <----FLESH

Most teach this in some form or fashion........saved by faith but kept or maintained by some religious hoop jumping..............

And the reason they were found in iniquity is because they DID NOT trust CHRIST fully.........even though they identified him as LORD twice.....

Like JESUS said....YOU will die in your SINS because you do NOT BELIEVE I AM HE......

There is no blend because faith works by love. Faith is not dead.

Hebrews 11 is the faith chapter, it shows us how faith works by love, by faith Noah built (action) the boat.

Faith is simply trust, belief, reliance and if there is no level of obedience, there is no trust or belief. That is what you would call a dead faith. Which is what is preached by the easy-believism. Stuck in the elementary milk doctrines. To be frank, most easy believism churches have not even made it to the fundamentals of the faith, we arent even in the faith toward God pricinple yet, because they preach a dead faith, as James calls it, a worthless useless faith, the same faith that the devils have.

Hebrews 6:1-3
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits.

Its about accept these certain facts we happen to believe and you are saved. The reasons for why some like the new IBF cult can preach hard against sin is because its always pre-faced with: "Dont worry, this has nothing to do with salvation". So you can rip face on stage, make a few jokes and act hard and believe all those warnings in the Bible are for lost people, despite them being written to churches. All of these warnings in the easy-believism world would be absolutely useless, and that is one question worthy of a reply from your side. Why are there so many warnings of falling away, being led astray and deception when those really are no danger to a Christian, because even if he does fall away or gets deceived he is still saved, no matter what.

Some even encourage sinning by saying "If you keep sinning God will take you home early". That must be the worst doctrine I have ever heard, a person hears that and believes they can eat their cake and have it too, I can sin as much as I want, and still make it to the kingdom, God will just take me out early and I lose rewards. (Ignoring 1 Corinthians 6:9 and Galatians 5:19-21, as often is the case)
I have yet to meet the man who cared about any rewards. The reward itself to most people is the fact that they even go to heaven

 

[dcontroversal]

This post is missing something. There is nothing about regeneration and it's effects. That is the piece that is missing in your soteriology, DC. Look at your post. No mention or inference to regeneration whatsoever.

Your doctrine of regeneration is a New Nature that is seperated and cut off from the person by a wall of flesh.

There is nothing missing in that post.......only in your mind there is because I wrote it.....do not address me.......

 

[dcontroversal]

There is no blend because faith works by love. Faith is not dead.

Hebrews 11 is the faith chapter, it shows us how faith works by love, by faith Noah built (action) the boat.

Faith is simply trust, belief, reliance and if there is no level of obedience, there is no trust or belief. That is what you would call a dead faith. Which is what is preached by the easy-believism. Stuck in the elementary milk doctrines. To be frank, most easy believism churches have not even made it to the fundamentals of the faith, we arent even in the faith toward God pricinple yet, because they preach a dead faith, as James calls it, a worthless useless faith, the same faith that the devils have.

Hebrews 6:1-3
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits.

Its about accept these certain facts we happen to believe and you are saved. The reasons for why some like the new IBF cult can preach hard against sin is because its always pre-faced with: "Dont worry, this has nothing to do with salvation". So you can rip face on stage, make a few jokes and act hard and believe all those warnings in the Bible are for lost people, despite them being written to churches. All of these warnings in the easy-believism world would be absolutely useless, and that is one question worthy of a reply from your side. Why are there so many warnings of falling away, being led astray and deception when those really are no danger to a Christian, because even if he does fall away or gets deceived he is still saved, no matter what.

Some even encourage sinning by saying "If you keep sinning God will take you home early". That must be the worst doctrine I have ever heard, a person hears that and believes they can eat their cake and have it too, I can sin as much as I want, and still make it to the kingdom, God will just take me out early and I lose rewards. (Ignoring 1 Corinthians 6:9 and Galatians 5:19-21, as often is the case)
I have yet to meet the man who cared about any rewards. The reward itself to most people is the fact that they even go to heaven

Sure there is a blend.......and numerous books cover these false gospels with no power to save....Galatians being one of them.......maybe read chapter one and verse seven.......they were peddling a gospel of a DIFFERENT KIND which was double cursed, had no power and those that believe it are fools and bewitched.......

FAITH PLUS FOR salvation = hell

And I never said FAITH is dead.....and have ALWAYS said ANYTHING beyond faith are the results of the faith and salvation ONE already possess in Christ....get the facts straight about me before you attribute anything to me.....!