If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken

[notuptome]

1 Thessalonians 5: 19. Don't quench the Spirit. 20. Don't despise prophesies. 21. Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good.

So I don't think it's creating doubt, it's just being responsible in testing things. I think the ability to think critically is part of the sound mind that God has given us. We don't need to be afraid of what we will find if we are honest and consistent.

As I understand it, it was an accepted practice for a disciple of a person to write a letter in the name of that person. So if we take the book of Revelation as an example, it claims to be written by someone named John and is in a similar style do the gospel and the Epistles. But was it written by John one of the 12 apostles? This is not creating doubt, it is simply thinking critically, using one's sound mind.

Of course we can simply say that Christians throughout the centuries have regarded it as scripture. But that would be an appeal to tradition, in my opinion.

Now, I am not by any means trying to pick apart your words, but I think you put it really well here
"...allow the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth God has
for me
in His word." (Emphasis added)

If you approach the Bible on your own, looking for truths that God has for you personally, then of course you're going to come up with very different ideas than a group that's looking at the Bible as a group over centuries.

Your opinion is formed by what you wish to believe. You love to find little seams through which you can create doubt. Just what will you believe about Jesus? How certain will you be that Jesus and Jesus alone has saved you from eternal condemnation?

Will you rely solely on scripture or will you rely upon tradition as well as personal aspirations.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dan_473]

The Catholic Church puts "Tradition" on a par with Scripture. Therefore they have invented a false Christianity.

Hi Nehemiah6, great to see you again!

I disagree that your conclusion, that it is therefore a false Christianity, necessarily follows.

Also, and as I've talked about several times on this thread, people tend to use tradition to establish the Canon of scripture. Even people who want to use just the scriptures tend to do that.

 

[Dan_473]

Your opinion is formed by what you wish to believe. You love to find little seams through which you can create doubt. Just what will you believe about Jesus? How certain will you be that Jesus and Jesus alone has saved you from eternal condemnation?

Will you rely solely on scripture or will you rely upon tradition as well as personal aspirations.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Of course my opinion is affected by what I wish to believe. I disagree that my opinion is solely the product of that.

It's often called
Confirmation bias.
And it's much easier to see in other people that in yourself.
It's true for everyone.

I think that's one of the great things about a place like Christian chat. We can brush up against other people, and in that process possibly see things that we wouldn't otherwise see.

I tend to use what you call Little seams because if you use large subjects, people often tend to just want to shut you down immediately.

For example, if I said
How do we know that the gospels contain completely reliable quotes of Jesus?
Most people wouldn't even give that a hearing.

But if you say
What about the document we call third John?
Well it is kind of an odd little book. People may tend to hear, and be more open to seeing things about their own assumptions, for example.

I believe that Jesus is the messiah, the anointed one sent from God, and in fact God incarnate.

I am certain that I am free from condemnation now because
Romans 8: 16. The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.

 

[Dibby53]

.
My eldest brother (for convenience sake, call him Larry) was ordained to the
priesthood in 1965 and remained so for 53 years prior to passing away at
the age of 78 in May of 2018.

Larry graduated from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome. He taught
at the University of San Diego and has served in parishes in San Diego,
Mexico, Portland, the Tohono O'odham Indian Reservation, and Huntington
Beach. Larry served as the Director of Pastoral Ministry and the first Rector
of the Conventual Church of Our Lady of the Angels at the Franciscan
Renewal Center, Scottsdale, Arizona.

In 1973, he served at University of San Diego as an Assistant Professor of
Religious Studies in the College of Arts and Sciences. Larry then served as
the University Chaplain and Director of Campus Ministry from September
1974 until June 1984.

Larry entered the Franciscan Order to become a Friar in 1987 after serving
as a priest of the Diocese of San Diego for 22 years. During his semi
retirement years, Larry, he was a priest at the Mission San Luis Rey in
Oceanside, California.

Supposing Rome's version of Christianity is mistaken? (This is only a
hypothetical question; I'm not alleging Rome is mistaken.) The ramifications
of that would be too awful to contemplate. It would mean that my deceased
brother is right now, this very moment, in Hell regardless of the quality and
the extent of his devotion to The Church. It would also mean that my
brother was a minister of darkness rather than light; thus everyone he
influenced was led down a path leading directly to the lake of brimstone
depicted at Rev 20:11-15 where they would be facing a mode of death akin
to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

I can only imagine the crushing, unspeakable dismay that my brother would
undergo were it to turn out that all the while he sincerely believed himself
serving Christ's best interests, he was actually serving the Devil's.
_

I guess that Larry devoted his life to God, because he loves God. And by being a priest maybe he helped many, many people. It is not for us to judge Larry.....leave that to God. But I don't believe that God is a monster......he is the Father. And good Fathers don't tend to want to torment their children. You love him, so how much greater is god's love for him.

 

[stillness]

We are not saved by a Church, if anyone teaches this, wether he is Catholic or protestant, He is behaving like a cult leader, saying: unless you believe what we believe, your not saved. Those who are divided and cause divisions are babes in Christ, Paul's words, "There is quarreling and divisions among you, are you not behaving like men in the flesh."
There is no reason why a Catholic and Protestant can't be married: witch is the case with me presently. Tho I am called as evangelist to all churches and dont consider myself protestant or Catholic. Was sent to Catholic church a as a child and fell into the world, then to Pentecostal church and took pride in hearing the Lord; then He told me: Your going to fall that you may learn to continually repent. Later after marriage break fell into adiction. The Lord did not stop speaking to me and I did continue to repent and turn to Him. Among other things the Lord told me: Enter in as a little child and put away your divided spirit. Since I have been in recovery I came across books like The Dark Night of the Soul from a Catholic monks that lived over 500 years ago, tho its hard to underatand, there is nothing that would cause division between Catholic or protestant. It's about going on to perfection. I have a study work in progress in plain English, that began over 3 years ago from this book you can read the first part on my page.

 

[Jackson123]

Good catch! I'll attempt to reword to make it more clear what I meant. Bowing down in the process of worshiping a statue is prohibited. But I can't say for sure whether the Pope in that picture is worshipping the statue.

Again, it's not clear to me from the picture you posted earlier if he is worshipping the statue, or what the statue symbolizes.

No doubt some Catholic priests and bishops have lied. Was the process of selling forgiveness established by an ecumenical council?

So you believe bowing down unto the statue in not prohibit?

So why pope bowing down unto the statue?

 

[Jackson123]

It's possible the Catholic leaders are lying, it's possible that the Catholic church and Eastern Orthodox are founded heavily on lies.

How would you know that, apart from your own personal interpretation of the scriptures?

Did God tell you to interpret the scriptures by yourself, for yourself? Be honest, you probably feel that he did. Maybe not in a voice you could hear, but deep in your heart you feel that God wants you to read the Bible by yourself.

And if that's the case, it doesn't really make sense to continue going over this or that teaching of the Catholic Church, does it? We will continually come back to
It's a matter of interpretation.

Why Bible is in writing? Because for people to read. That is why I read the Bible.

And every body that read is try to understand what it say. Like if you read news paper, you understand what it mean, and if you do not understand some word, you ask or look at the dictionary.

Simple. You read mean you want understand. I feel you not interested in understand than don't read it

Why you believe vatican interpretation ? I don't because a lot of liar there, they love money.

Don't you watch the video I post, Karen Hudes ex senior legal council of world bank say 60% of us federal tax goes to vatican. They are thief and I do not trust in thief.

 

[Jackson123]

Yes, that's a good way to interpret it, though, in my opinion, not the only way.

Do you believe Paul spirit able to see what happen in Corinth while he was some where else?

Why he mention in verse one say it is reported.........

If his spirit was able to see what going on, than his spirit able to talk without his body present, than why he wrote a letter? Just say it.

 

[Jackson123]

Hi Nehemiah6, great to see you again!

I disagree that your conclusion, that it is therefore a false Christianity, necessarily follows.

Also, and as I've talked about several times on this thread, people tend to use tradition to establish the Canon of scripture. Even people who want to use just the scriptures tend to do that.

What kind of tradition?

Apostle tradition or pagan tradition.

Bowing down unto statue is pagan tradition not apostle tradition

Glorify God is apostle tradition

 

[Adstar]

Supposing Rome's version of Christianity is mistaken? (This is only a
hypothetical question; I'm not alleging Rome is mistaken.) The ramifications
of that would be too awful to contemplate. It would mean that my deceased
brother is right now, this very moment, in Hell regardless of the quality and
the extent of his devotion to The Church.

Christians believe Jesus and trust in the Atonement Jesus secured for their salvation on the cross.. They are followers of Jesus.. NOT followers of The Church..

Are people who are devoted to the Mormon Church, serving the truth of God? NO..
Are people who are devoted to the Jehovah's witness Church serving the truth of God? NO..
Are people who are devoted to the roman catholic church sering the truth if God? NO..

Only those who believe Jesus and trust in Him are serving the will of God..

 

[Heyjude]

Nice chatting with you also, and happy apple picking!

And yes, hear the voice of Jesus and respond to that! As I've talked about earlier on this thread, I know several people who grew up Catholic or Eastern Orthodox and felt Jesus calling them into a more personal bible-based Protestant style Church.

And then I also know people who grew up as Protestants, earnestly sought Jesus through that approach and personal Bible reading, and then ended up hearing Jesus call them to Catholicism or Eastern orthodoxy.

Of course, some people will read that and say that Jesus would never do that. But, in my opinion, that is simply using one's personal experience and knowledge as the standard by which to measure everyone else.

this is the part I was thinking of, where Jesus says he has more things to tell his disciples
John 16: 12. "I have yet many things to tell you, but you can't bear them now. 13. However when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming.

it's right next to the part where he talks about sending the spirit to guide his disciples into all truth. And again, Protestants tend to see that as the spirit guiding each individual person into all truth, Catholics and Eastern Orthodox see it as guiding the disciples as a group into all truth.

Sure thing Dan, I see where you are coming from.

Maybe its better not to see any "Church" as a material building people go to. I see it as people who form the "body" of the "church which was built with Jesus Christ as the foundation. So not strangers and foreigners from "different named places" or "physical buildings" with names over their door but a new foundation and building that isn't made with hands. I reckon these people are from all places across the Earth.

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together grows unto an holy temple in the Lord" Ephesians 2:19-21 KJV

 

[Dan_473]

So you believe bowing down unto the statue in not prohibit?

So why pope bowing down unto the statue?

Bowing down to a three dimensional object isn't necessarily prohibited, that's correct. As I talked about above, many Protestants feel it's perfectly fine to bow down to a cross.

The issue that I see is that we can't see whether a person is bowing down to an object or showing respect to the thing an object represents.

 

[Dan_473]

Why Bible is in writing? Because for people to read. That is why I read the Bible.

And every body that read is try to understand what it say. Like if you read news paper, you understand what it mean, and if you do not understand some word, you ask or look at the dictionary.

Simple. You read mean you want understand. I feel you not interested in understand than don't read it

Why you believe vatican interpretation ? I don't because a lot of liar there, they love money.

Don't you watch the video I post, Karen Hudes ex senior legal council of world bank say 60% of us federal tax goes to vatican. They are thief and I do not trust in thief.

It's fine if you want to just read the Bible by yourself, for yourself. Many people find that approach very satisfying.

As I've talked about numerous times already, I think there are good reasons to question that approach.

I didn't say that I accept the vatican's interpretation of the scripture. I would say that I can see how they arrived at their conclusions in a general sense, and I try to be aware of my own assumptions.

If you posted a video that talked about the IRS in the United States turning over 60% of the revenue it collects to the Vatican, and if you believe that, and I mean to say this as gently as possible, but I think you've been Hoodwinked.

 

[Dan_473]

Do you believe Paul spirit able to see what happen in Corinth while he was some where else?

Why he mention in verse one say it is reported.........

If his spirit was able to see what going on, than his spirit able to talk without his body present, than why he wrote a letter? Just say it.

I was simply pointing out that Paul says he was present in his spirit.

What does it mean to be present in the spirit?

But again we could probably trade a hundred posts about this.

In the end, you are welcome to your own interpretation!

 

[Dan_473]

What kind of tradition?

Apostle tradition or pagan tradition.

Bowing down unto statue is pagan tradition not apostle tradition

Glorify God is apostle tradition

What kind of tradition, that's a good question!

Let's look at an example.

in many cases when people want to show that we are using the correct 27 books for the New testament, they point to a letter written by athanasius in 367 ad.

What kind of tradition would you say that is?

 

[Dan_473]

Sure thing Dan, I see where you are coming from.

Maybe its better not to see any "Church" as a material building people go to. I see it as people who form the "body" of the "church which was built with Jesus Christ as the foundation. So not strangers and foreigners from "different named places" or "physical buildings" with names over their door but a new foundation and building that isn't made with hands. I reckon these people are from all places across the Earth.

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together grows unto an holy temple in the Lord" Ephesians 2:19-21 KJV

Yes, and amen!

And I'm not saying that other people have to reach the same conclusion that I do on this next part, but I ask myself...

The strangers and foreigners that were forming God's building, where were they in the middle ages? Say, 800 ad or 1100 ad?

Were they meeting in secret and leaving no trace? Or were they mixed in with the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox groups? Where they believing something close to what we would today call Calvinism? Were they believing things similar to what we hear today coming from mega churches?

I tend to think that they probably looked and talked very much like the other Catholics and Orthodox around them, they just displayed a lot more of the fruit of the Spirit!

 

[garee]

Interpretation of God's revelation through the scriptures is, I believe, the answer to your question of who and what at the beginning of your post.

Is it your view that we should only listen to God, and never to humans? If so, I would disagree

1 Timothy 3: 1. This is a faithful saying: if a man seeks the office of an overseer, he desires a good work. 2. The overseer therefore must be without reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, modest, hospitable,
good at teaching;

I would not disagree.. . not after me, the faith to believe God not seen as it is written (sola scriptura) is after no man.

Our brother Peter in the Lord learned that in Mathew 16:222-23 he was forgiven of His blasphemy .

Teaching is not venerable men "lording it over" a non venerable person's faith rather than the faith of Christ which alone comes from hearing (sola scriptura) .The Catholics Nemesis is clearly all things written in the law and the prophets the reforming authority in any generation . We seek the approval of the master teacher.

Its his commandment to do so (2 Timothy 2:15) not a law of the fathers that they call devine according to their book of the law CCC but the law of our Devine father in heaven..(sola scriptura)

CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 80 - 80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."

With the stroke of the pen Catholicism as a law of the fathers same kind law the apostate Jew sought after usurps the one authority by which we could believe our Divine God. giving it to sinful men

You have to define teaching as to what it means in that verse in respect to one wife..

It is his view which I believe he warns of those antichrists who say we do must have a man to teach us . Our Father in heaven is our master our infallible teacher .In that way we are call no man teacher on earth master or in your case Pope as a daysman on earth teach the congregation how to hear God.

The reference of those who would seduce us is in regard to antichrists.

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1 John 2: 26 -27

Truth or lie?

The law of the fathers or what some call Apostolic succession is simply is another source of faith (the book of their law CCC) in respect to men seen .

 

[garee]

What kind of tradition, that's a good question!

Let's look at an example.

in many cases when people want to show that we are using the correct 27 books for the New testament, they point to a letter written by athanasius in 367 ad.

What kind of tradition would you say that is?

What kind of tradition would you say the below is? One that puts ( sacred sola scriptura) second?

CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 80 - 80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."

Whose same goal of sacred venerable men or our father in heaven not seeen .

I would think no man can serve two teaching masters . Love one hate the other or hate one love the other?

Which one will you serve today .that odf men seen or of our father not seen?

 

[Heyjude]

We are not saved by a Church, if anyone teaches this, wether he is Catholic or protestant, He is behaving like a cult leader, saying: unless you believe what we believe, your not saved. Those who are divided and cause divisions are babes in Christ, Paul's words, "There is quarreling and divisions among you, are you not behaving like men in the flesh."
There is no reason why a Catholic and Protestant can't be married: witch is the case with me presently. Tho I am called as evangelist to all churches and dont consider myself protestant or Catholic. Was sent to Catholic church a as a child and fell into the world, then to Pentecostal church and took pride in hearing the Lord; then He told me: Your going to fall that you may learn to continually repent. Later after marriage break fell into adiction. The Lord did not stop speaking to me and I did continue to repent and turn to Him. Among other things the Lord told me: Enter in as a little child and put away your divided spirit. Since I have been in recovery I came across books like The Dark Night of the Soul from a Catholic monks that lived over 500 years ago, tho its hard to underatand, there is nothing that would cause division between Catholic or protestant. It's about going on to perfection. I have a study work in progress in plain English, that began over 3 years ago from this book you can read the first part on my page.

Hey Stillness how you doing?
I sure know what the dark night of the soul means from experience. I thank you for the recommendation of that book. I have just read a great book by the addict expert Gabor Mate. Its called "In the realm of Hungry Ghosts". A real eye opener. In fact everything Gabor Mate speaks of is fascinating as he has had a life time of experience to gather his words from.

 

[Dan_473]

Do you believe Paul spirit able to see what happen in Corinth while he was some where else?

Why he mention in verse one say it is reported.........

If his spirit was able to see what going on, than his spirit able to talk without his body present, than why he wrote a letter? Just say it.

Say, my brother Jackson,

Just to throw another idea into the mix,

When Jesus was walking the Earth, he talked to Moses. What was happening there, in your view?