I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that Christians should sometimes listen to human teachers?
If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken
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When a person changes the meaning of a word like apostle it can mean whatever person desires .
Like the word vision. The revealing of things not there a picture in ones mind .
God used Moses and Elijah to represent the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) we hear it as it is written.
Our brother in the Lord, Peter, the serial denier turned things upside down like he did in John 21 when he spread the rumor as a law of the fathers that John would not die. Not eulogizing worshiping the flesh the things seen.. . . .seemed difficult for him.
Matthew 17:1-5 King James Version (KJV) And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias While he yet spake, (God interrupted having nothing to do with what Peter sought after) behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: (the vision disaapered in a cloud )and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. (Ignore Peter)
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, (sola scriptura) neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Well I have no idea how they spoke - depends on whether they were rich or poor.
I don't know what they were doing with their time anywhere else, but in England we only know what happened around 1066.because it was The Battle of Hastings.
Halley's Comet was also in 1066. The Bayeux Tapestry shows Henry watching the Comet as they had taken it as an Omen of his fate. We see him on the Bayeux tapestry then taking an arrow in the eye
The Norman army was under the Duke William of Normandy and an English army under King Harold and it lasted all day and was exceptionally bloody even by medieval standards. Poor people were depicted as being superstitious poor farming peasants. They probably drank a lot of mead. We cannot tell how things were back then but we can gather things from how they lived. Calvinism hadn't been invented as John Calvin wasn't born until 1509.
When Harold was eventually killed and the English fled, the way was open for William to assume the throne of England. Tradition has it that William gave thanks to God for his victory and ordered that all in his army should do penance for the souls that they had killed that day. He himself paid for the foundation of Battle Abbey on the spot where Harold fell.
During the Norman Reign from 1066-1154 there were around 7000 Norman churches built and a lot of Cathedrals and great Abbeys. I live near one of them. Some of the Churches still stand today. They had plenty of Churches to go to that's for sure, like never before. In those days, before the Norman Conquest, the churches were slung up with mud and wattle and daub so you can only imagine how simple worship was. Probably with straw on the floor. If Balaam's donkey was there she would probably say she wouldn't sleep in one. Rich people and the nobles had places like Canterbury Cathedral and flash Abbeys and poor people had these slung up mud hovels to worship in before the Normans came. I think the worship was simple, yet full of superstition even so.
What did the religious do all day? How can we know really? I have no idea and can only imagine but even the Nobles were extremely superstitious and were always going on about evil omens, hobgoblin nonsense, or putting hexes on each other if the history books are anything to go by. I am sure not all of them did though.
All was alright, but you must never mention err…...”The Scottish Play”..
Funny video!
I just brought up the idea of what Christians were doing in the past because sometimes people will have the idea that true Christians I have always believed pretty much the same thing.
When I was growing up, we had the idea that the early church believed just like we did as Pentecostals. After the death of the apostles, though, true Christianity began to disappear from the Earth. Or the true church went to sleep. Or true Christians went deep underground and that's why you don't see them in the history books.
Then in more recent times (how recent depends on what flavor of Christianity one considers to be the truth), the truth began to be revealed once again. And this was proof that we were living in the last days.
But a challenge arose for me personally when I encountered the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox understanding of the thing where Jesus says that he would build his church and the gates of hell wouldn't stand up against it.
Because in my version of history, it looked like the gates of hell were holding up just fine against the church for most of history.
My brother, my standard is bible it do not matter protestant or catholic.
You want to say bowing down unto mary statue is not prohibit because some Protestant bowing unto the cross.
If some Protestant commit adultery is that mean adultery not prohibit?
If king David adultery and murder Uriah, is that mean murder not prohibit?
It started with a law of the fathers in the old testament as a oral traditions of men. the reason the tablets (10 commandments) were broken the first time
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Two sects come to mind. The Pharisees and Sadducees. Both walked after the things seen. Therefore no faith according to all things written in the law and the prophets(sola scriptura).
Today the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox sect like that of the Pharisees with Sadaucesss come together as one man putting aside their deference's .They demanded show us a miracle then we will believe. In effect saying. . . We will not believe in a Holy Father not seen.
Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Matthew 16:1The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
Matthew 16:6Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Matthew 16:11How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Matthew 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
When Paul was born again and became a member of the Nazarene sect. They in which Paul was previously a member of, wanted to make him disappear like the other Christians in which Paul was previously a member of .
They received written documents from the high Priest during the 1st century reformation just as during the 15 th. century reformation from the Pope. You could say a carbon copy of another manner of spirit other than that as it is written. . the Spirit of Christ.
(Acts 22:4-5 (KJV)And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.
Acts 24:5-6 (KJV) For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law. (Sacred traditions of the fathers. . men seen).
They called sola scriptura a "heresy." Trying to make all things written in the law and the prophets without effect by what they called Sacred traditions of the fathers men seen .But they failed and walked away in unbelief. This reveal to us they had no faith that alone comes from hearing our father in heaven not see.
Acts 24:13-14 (KJV) Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
They worshipped the fathers as if they were God, our one devine Father in heaven as gods in the likeness of men . Unlike Paul establishing the proper manner of faith the unseen eternal .
Jesus in John 3 said to those kind of fathers who hold the faith of our o unseen father in heaven rather in respect to men seen .Its one of the think not doctrines.
Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
These stones. the living stones that do make up the spiritual unseen house of God the church. We walk by faith (the unseen) not by sight after the temporal.
Do you don't accept vatican interpretation but you see where coming from, than where do you think bowing unto mary statue coming from?
Is that apostle tradition to now unto Jesus statue?
Or Peter statue?
When Peter alive on earth, he refused Cornelius bowing unto him.
Than where catholic bowi unto Peter statue from?
About vatican steal money, not only Karen Hudes, a lot more people say that. If it is wrong, why vatican not sue Karen.
Here's another clue how vatican love money
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...ican-bank-holocaust-suit-2009dec29-story.html
VATICAN CITY —
An American appeals court on Tuesday dismissed a lawsuit by Holocaust survivors who alleged the Vatican bank accepted millions of dollars of their valuables stolen by Nazi sympathizers.
The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco upheld a lower court ruling that said the Vatican bank was immune from such a lawsuit under the 1976 Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act, which generally protects foreign countries from being sued in U.S. courts.
If you want to read more go to the link
Than what it is to do with pray to st Peter? Is this verse say please pray to Mary spirit, or mary spirit able to hear billions people pray in thausand different city in the same time, or able to heal the sick ?
I do not understand why they use athanasius letter, is he the man that have ottentic apostle written teaching?
I never hear about it.
Jesus is God, he able to talk to who ever He want to, but we as a human can't.
Devil pretend to be mary may talk to catholic and they think real mary.
My neighbors always use t shirt with heart symbol on it. She say mary told her to.
One day her neighbor call ambulance on her, because she not eat for some time and so weak. After gain her
Consciousness she said the reason she not eat is because Mary told her to. She is devoid catholic.
Jesus is God, He can tapell the different between real Mary or Moses Spirit and devil pretending to be Mary, but we are human, that is why bible prohibit us to talk to Spirit.
1. They not able to hear
2. If they talk back Tom us, it is devil pretend to be them
The reason I brought up Protestants bowing to a cross is that I understand that according to your personal interpretation of the scripture, bowing to a cross is prohibited. But many people interpret the Bible differently than that. And it's not just Catholics, it's Protestants as well.
But that's the beauty of everyone having their own personal interpretation. You can read the Bible and say it's wrong, someone else can read the Bible and say it's okay.
Yes, some Protestants commit adultery. But I think your analogy is faulty, because most Protestants will say that adultery is wrong, so it's a different situation than bowing to a cross.
If it started with the Israelites in the wilderness, then I would say it is an Israelite tradition.
The Catholic and Eastern Orthodox teachings on the use of objects in worship, which I think is the situation you're talking about that you're calling bowing to a statue, come from their interpretation of the scriptures and also decisions of church councils.
Of course you can have a different interpretation of the scriptures!
Catholics would say that yes, these traditions are apostolic, because the office of apostle has continued to serve in interpreting scripture and church councils. I think they would say that.
The situation with Peter and Cornelius would again be a matter of Bible interpretation, I would say. Did Cornelius think that Peter was a god?
Not everyone who says something wrong gets sued. Lawsuits can be expensive!
It doesn't surprise me if people in the Vatican love money. People in all sorts of Christian groups love money, unfortunately!
Say, my brother, the verse that you are referring to, is that Leviticus 26:1?
Because another aspect of Bible interpretation is that many people, including many Protestants, say that the law of Moses is not to be followed by Christians today.
Of course, as we can see from numerous threads and posts here on Christian chat, there are loads of different interpretations about that!
I believe you had asked me what possible scripture Catholics might be using as part of their ideas about praying to Mary.
I don't know when the idea of praying to Mary came about, I think it's probably pretty old. Do you know when it started?
I think They point to the letter from athanasius probably because it's the first time that a complete list of books in what we call the New testament was published.
Yes, that's a possible interpretation, that Jesus could talk with Moses just because he's God.
But I if I remember right, you had asked questions about if it was right to talk to a dead person. Jesus did obey the law of Moses, yet he talked to a dead person.
Also I think there had been a question about how a dead person could talk in the first place. But Moses talks at the time of Jesus, and the disciples see him.
"The first instance of the formal invocation of Mary occurs in the prayers of Ephraim Syrus († 379), addressed to Mary and the saints, and attributed by the tradition of the Syrian church, though perhaps in part incorrectly, to that author. "
http://prayerfoundation.org/why_protestants_dont_pray_to_mary.htm
