nephilim

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Mar 28, 2016
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Well that's just it. There is a difference between opinion and fact, or what we THINK Scripture says.

There is NO ambiguity that it says they left their Heavenly body, and committed a sexual sin with strange flesh. That is THE reason they are in chains in Tartarus. That's what the text says. Not me.

As for giants, they are all over Scripture:
Goliath Isn’t the Only Giant in the Bible. Here’s Where They Came From.
Michael S. Heiser | Tue, July 18, 2017 | Articles


If they haven’t read it, most people have at least heard the story of David and Goliath of Gath (“the Gittite”). The names of the hero and villain have iconic status. But how many people know anything about the giant Goliath, other than that he lost his head to a boy named David from Israel?

Second Samuel 21:15–22 and 1 Chronicles 20:4–8 tell us that there were other unusually tall warriors among the Philistines. The lists are not identical, but putting them together we read that there were four: Saph (also called Sippai), Lahmi, Ishbibenob, and an unnamed warrior. The descriptions are similar to that given to Goliath, noting “great stature” and the dimensions of their weaponry. Unlike Goliath or any of the other named warriors, the unnamed giant is said to have six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot. This malformation, known as polydactylism, is only mentioned in the description of this giant. The Bible does not mention it when it discusses other giant clans.
Wait a minute—giant clans?
There are several people groups described as giants or among whom giants lived in the Old Testament:
  1. There are the Anakim, who are descendants from the Nephilim mentioned in Genesis 6:1–4 (compare Num 13:33), and whom the people of Israel encountered under Moses, and later under Joshua (Num 13:22–33; Josh 15:13–14).
  2. At one time, before the children of Israel traveled through the Transjordan, the land to the east of the Jordan River was heavily populated with tall people known as Emim (Deut 2:10–11) and the Zamzummim, also called the Zuzim (Deut 2:20).
  3. The Amorites, another group that stood in the way of Israel claiming the Promised Land, are described as being exceptionally tall (Amos 2:9–10).
  4. Lastly, there were the Rephaim, which are mentioned nearly 20 times, most often in association with the conquest of the promised land, when Moses encountered King Og of Bashan, whose bed measured to 13 feet in length (Deut 2:11, 20–22; 3:11–13; Josh 12:4; 13:13).
Goliath was Rephaim. He and the four giant warriors listed alongside him are descended from rapha (רפה) in Gath (2 Sam 21:22; 1 Chr 20:8). If rapha is interpreted as a proper name, Rapha, then the four warriors were all brothers of Goliath. The biblical text does not actually say this. Only one of these men, Lahmi, is specifically said to be the brother of Goliath. Therefore, it is best to translate the term as “giants” or “Rephaim” as many English translations do.
Some of the Rephaim giants survived the wars of Moses and Joshua, and their descendants settled in the Philistine city of Gath. The other warriors who accompanied Goliath may not have been brothers, but they were all part of an enduring and unusual lineage that challenged Israel for their land and opposed their God.
Why did Satan simply not apply his shift changer power in the garden?

I do not see any height restrictions in respect to the grace of God.. What is the minimum ?

What we are is not that in which we will be (no longer male and female. Jew or gentile. . . no multiply in heaven. We will be like the angels.

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

.Short or tall. All believers will receive a new body. . height has no value in salvation.

Yes and there are still giants . Just look to the NBA. The sexual sin was homosexuality with men sent with the message of God. Nothing more and nothing less.

The chain is the binding and loosening power of the gospel . Those who Jesus loosened are loosed those who are not will never rise to no spirit life forever and ever.
 

PennEd

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Apr 22, 2013
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I differ with you on this also. God knew all along what would and will happen. Everything is going according to plan.

I acquiesced angels experiencing sex through possession of humans. I also agreed there were many giants, just none 30 ft. tall.

As far as Genesis 6 goes, our argument is what does nephil describes. Scripture is not clear where the giants originated.

Gen. 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

giants = H5303
נְפִל נְפִיל
nephı̂yl nephil
nef-eel', nef-eel'
From H5307; properly, a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant: - giant.


I don't see any angels here. Only traditions of men, saying so.
I did not say the Nephilim were angels. They are not. They are the offspring of angels and human women. 2 Humans do not produce giants.

Tell me. Were the Angels that ate and drank with Abraham possessed humans? Or were they Angels able to take the form of humans?

You've also got huge problem trying to explain away giant people in the Bible.

These guys were so big the Jewish spies compared themselves as insects!
Numbers 13:32-33 New King James Version (NKJV)
32 And they gave the children of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, “The land through which we have gone as spies is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great stature. 33 There we saw the giants (Nephilim) (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like[b] grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.”
 
Mar 28, 2016
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I did not say the Nephilim were angels. They are not. They are the offspring of angels and human women. 2 Humans do not produce giants.

Tell me. Were the Angels that ate and drank with Abraham possessed humans? Or were they Angels able to take the form of humans?

You've also got huge problem trying to explain away giant people in the Bible.

These guys were so big the Jewish spies compared themselves as insects!
Numbers 13:32-33 New King James Version (NKJV)
32 And they gave the children of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, “The land through which we have gone as spies is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great stature. 33 There we saw the giants (Nephilim) (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like[b] grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.”
Humans don't produce giants ??? I think God the DNA King produces giaints as well as midgets .

Nephilim, another meaning. . bully .Even grasshopper can be bullies . No height requirement in the word Nephilim. Samson bullied the Philistines . David bullied the bully . Goliath thought in his eyes David was a grasshopper.

John the Baptist is called an “angelos” in Matthew 11:10. Its what believer do bring the message of God. He sends them out as apostles two by two

Angels are messengers sent from God who carry out tasks that God assigns them to perform on Earth. You could in that way we can call them apostles "sent ones". . the spirit of prophecy . . keeping the integrity of the living word .

Visiting Earth as unseen spirits of truth. .the power of the gospel . When they appear on Earth, angels may be in either human believers as sons of God that are led by the Spirit of God .And not the spirit of the anti-christ Satan , but as administering spirits of comfort, and assurance that bring to our minds that in which the spirit has taught us .

This shows he is working in us to both will and do His good pleasure. But they are never of human form just as the Spirit of Christ we have in these bodies of death .the power not of us..

Its the body they use to deceive after the three avenues of this world . Like Satan with the serpent or Satan working in Peter (Mathew 16:22-23 to make the gospel without effect. It is on the rise experience the new gospel moral decline seems to be picking up speed. .

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

When the word angel appears in the same context of men .Then we know it is the kind God messenger he has sent. The opposing spirit lusts after the flesh and what the eyes see (no faith that could come from hearing God. The pride of life gayly proudly.

Genesis 19 King James Version (KJV) And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat. But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

Now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. Kill the spirit of truth the messenger. Just as did Cain with Abel the first recorded angel as a messenger of God. Spirits of truth are in respect to the unseen faith as a law of faith or mankind bringing the message in a hope God will apply it to their hearts .

Do we think that every homosexual is a fallen angel and therefore not subject to salvation. are they out of luck? If so how could we judge any sin? Where does faith fit in? Do we simply conclude by that sexual sin they are fallen angels I would say. . God forbid .

Hebrews 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
.
As many as a led by the Spirit of God are Sons of God. Seen and not seen The ones not seen have no way to shift change.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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PennEd, I know what scripture says. It is just I do not agree with you on what you think it says. You have your own opinions, I have mine. I am fine with that. I see your version defining a weak Heavenly Father that can't keep His creation from getting out of hand.

I see no evidence of 30 foot giants unless your bring in non-canonical books to assert your claim. I disqualify them on the errors they contain. I don't see Jude quoting from the book of Enoch. I believe, as a Jew, he was quoting oral history.
There were undoubtedly and unquestionably giants in North America as well. Entire races. And there is more than ample evidence of human/giant wars replete with mass graves etc etc.
And this was post-flood.

 
Mar 23, 2016
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Not only that, but if God didn't allow His Creation to "get out of Hand" then we wouldn't have fallen in the 1st place!
Exactly!!! To even think to suggest that God is "a weak Heavenly Father that can't keep His creation from getting out of hand" goes beyond the pale.




 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Exactly!!! To even think to suggest that God is "a weak Heavenly Father that can't keep His creation from getting out of hand" goes beyond the pale.
Perhaps you haven't read Genesis 3... or 11, or Judges, etc....

The issue is not whether God is capable.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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LOL Your reality Hollywood style or the reality that the seed of Christ was passed on through Noah . The reason for the flood.
What are you smoking, that you keep making groundless accusations against me? Quote me, or don't bother making them. Your slander is getting tiresome.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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I don't see any angels here. Only traditions of men, saying so.
Peter is "traditions of men"?

2 Peter 2:4-5 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;


What did angels do in the days of Noah that caused God not only to cast the angels down to hell and deliver them into chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgment but also to utterly destroy all but Noah (all in whose nostrils was the breath of life ... died – Gen 7:22) ???


Jude is "traditions of men"?

Jude 1:6-7 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Angels kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation ... going after strange [héterosanother (of a different kind) ] flesh.


What did angels do in Sodom and Gomorrha that caused God not only to reserve in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of that great day but also to destroy Sodom and Gomorrha by raining fire and brimstone down so that no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it (Jer 49:18)???



 

Melach

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Mar 28, 2019
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Perhaps you haven't read Genesis 3... or 11, or Judges, etc....

The issue is not whether God is capable.
yes God can do everything He wants. its more what He chooses to do is the issue for us. God tells us what He has chosen to do.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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The sexual sin was homosexuality with men sent with the message of God. Nothing more and nothing less.
Men? According to Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even.

The sexual sin was angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation as well as the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them ... going after strange [héterosanother (of a different kind) ] flesh (Jude 1:7).


If the "sexual sin was homosexuality with men … Nothing more and nothing less" (your words) the going after strange [héterosanother (of a different kind) ] flesh

would be

the going after strange [állos ("another of the same kind") ] flesh




 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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I see no evidence of 30 foot giants unless your bring in non-canonical books to assert your claim. I disqualify them on the errors they contain. I don't see Jude quoting from the book of Enoch. I believe, as a Jew, he was quoting oral history.
Surely something worthy of consideration, in my view! (y)

The reader may consider the following quote by Gaebelein:

[quoting]

"V. THE TESTIMONY OF ENOCH

"Jude 1:14-16
"The Holy Spirit introduces quite abruptly Enoch, the seventh from Adam. There is a deep spiritual significance in this. Enoch lived as an age was about to close. Before the evil days of Noah, with universal violence, corruption and wickedness, had come, Enoch walked with God and bore a prophetic testimony of what was to come in the future. He suffered on account of the testimony he bore to that generation. The ungodly spoke against him, but he kept on in his walk with God and in his testimony, till the day came when he was suddenly removed from the earth. “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him, for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God” (Hebrews 11:5). Enoch represents prophetically the true Church living at the close of the age, bearing witness to the coming of the Lord, and waiting in faith for the promised translation. The Spirit of God mentions Enoch for this purpose and for our encouragement.

"Much has been made by critics and rationalists about this reference to Enoch. What Jude writes about Enoch is found in a Jewish apocryphal book by the name of “The Book of Enoch.” The book consists of supposed revelations which were given to Enoch and to Moses. Its object seems to be a vindication of the ways of providence and to set forth the coming and terrible retribution for sinners. The book was known to the early church fathers who refer to it often in their writings. For centuries it seems to have been lost. About the close of the 18th Century an Ethiopian translation was discovered in Abyssinia and translated into English and German. Critics claim that this book of Enoch was used by Jude, inasmuch as he inserted this reference to Enoch, which is almost verbatim found in that book. But according to these critics the book of Enoch was written in the second century and from this they reason that Jude did not write this Epistle in the year 65 A.D.

"But there are other scholars who have ascertained that the book of Enoch was in existence before Christ. Even if the critics were correct that this book was written in the second century of our era, it is no evidence that Jude could not have written his Epistle in the year as stated above. The writers of the book of Enoch might have used Jude’s statements about Enoch. The fact that Jude in giving by the Holy Spirit this paragraph concerning Enoch proves the record, whether it was handed down by tradition or written in the book of Enoch, to be true."

--Gaebelein, Commentary on Jude [source: BibleHub]

[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
 

Deade

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Peter is "traditions of men"?

2 Peter 2:4-5 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;


What did angels do in the days of Noah that caused God not only to cast the angels down to hell and deliver them into chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgment but also to utterly destroy all but Noah (all in whose nostrils was the breath of life ... died – Gen 7:22) ???


Jude is "traditions of men"?

Jude 1:6-7 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Angels kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation ... going after strange [héterosanother (of a different kind) ] flesh.


What did angels do in Sodom and Gomorrha that caused God not only to reserve in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of that great day but also to destroy Sodom and Gomorrha by raining fire and brimstone down so that no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it (Jer 49:18)???
Do any of those scriptures say that angels actually procreated? No, it says they sinned.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Peter is "traditions of men"?
2 Peter 2:4-5 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
What did angels do in the days of Noah that caused God not only to cast the angels down to hell and deliver them into chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgment but also to utterly destroy all but Noah (all in whose nostrils was the breath of life ... died – Gen 7:22) ???
Jude is "traditions of men"?
Jude 1:6-7 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Angels kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation ... going after strange [héterosanother (of a different kind) ] flesh.
What did angels do in Sodom and Gomorrha that caused God not only to reserve in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of that great day but also to destroy Sodom and Gomorrha by raining fire and brimstone down so that no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it (Jer 49:18)???
Here's what I see in Jude.

He's listing three things in each of the following sections, to remind them of "judgment"/"destruction" of, using the EXAMPLES of:

--in verse 11 - 1) "the way of Cain"; 2) "the error of Balaam"; 3) "the gainsaying of Core"

--in verses 5,6,7 - 1) "[re: 'the ppl out of Egypt'] them that believed not"; 2) "angels that kept not their first estate... left their habitation/dwelling"; 3) "Sodom and Gomorrah, like their neighbors, giving selves to fornication and going after strange flesh";

[and speaks of]

--in verse 8 - [these that] 1) "defile the flesh"; 2) "despise dominion"; 3) "speak evil of dignities"



In Peter also, I am seeing lists of things (in this same way ^ )... what I am not seeing (in that passage of Peter) is that the angels did certain things "in the days of Noah" (as you put it). I've mentioned in an earlier thread, what Genesis 6:5,7 explicitly states (as to the "reason" for the flood).



[consider also: what has been said about "the 5 'I WILLs'" of Isaiah 14, culminating in the last two, stated in verse 14's "... I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High" and that which is stated in Hebrews 2:7,9 "a little LOWER than the angels" (the word for "lower" also used in Jn3:30, for example)… "kept not" seems they intended "up higher, above the Highest," not "down lower" (as Jesus Himself condescended) ;) ]
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Do any of those scriptures say that angels actually procreated? No, it says they sinned.
Whatever "sin" they participated in resulted in nephilim, which further resulted in God bringing judgment to the extent that:

Genesis 7:

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.



 

TheDivineWatermark

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Numbers 13 -

30 Then Caleb quieted the people before Moses and said, “We must go up and take possession of the land, for we can certainly conquer it!”

31 But the men who had gone up with him replied, “We cannot go up against the people, for they are stronger than we are!”

32 So they gave the Israelites a bad report about the land they had spied out: “The land we explored devours its inhabitants, and all the people we saw there are great in stature. 33 We even saw the Nephilim there—the descendants of Anak that come from the Nephilim! We seemed like grasshoppers in our own sight, and we must have seemed the same to them!”

[???]

Were they at least "great in stature" ??? lol
 

TheDivineWatermark

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"There were giants [Nephilim] on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men [H1368] who were of old, men of renown.

"[H1368] 159 adjective strong, mighty (compare Arabic
one who magnifies himself, behaves proudly, a tyrant, who is bold, audacious)"...and/or... "2. noun masculine strong, valiant man Joshua 10:2 (E) Genesis 6:4 "
 

cv5

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Do any of those scriptures say that angels actually procreated? No, it says they sinned.
The problem you are encountering is:
if not fallen angels (in human form in like manner as those who visited Abraham eating and drinking)
who then are the perpetrators?