What do you mean when you say, "The Bible is the Word of God"?
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Sorry didn't notice those! Yeah that is a great explanation.
Me personally I believe God has the same freedom to save whoever it is. I don't believe in libertarian free will, but I got no beef with you because you are a cool guy! I like your idea of defending the faith and answering questions and erasing doubts. Keep doing what you're doing!
My answer when people have asked me that has always been to quote Ecclesiastes and Deuteronomy, where the HIDDEN THINGS belong to God, but that which is REVEALED is for us. Our job is to DO what God says and keep it moving!
But most definately I will incorporate some elements of your reply to my answer, especially the part where its NOT our CALL to make!
Me personally I believe God has the same freedom to save whoever it is. I don't believe in libertarian free will, but I got no beef with you because you are a cool guy! I like your idea of defending the faith and answering questions and erasing doubts. Keep doing what you're doing!
My answer when people have asked me that has always been to quote Ecclesiastes and Deuteronomy, where the HIDDEN THINGS belong to God, but that which is REVEALED is for us. Our job is to DO what God says and keep it moving!
But most definately I will incorporate some elements of your reply to my answer, especially the part where its NOT our CALL to make!
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An interesting article. It basically says they were so overwhelmed by the holy spirit that they got it perfect. Sort of like automatic writing?
"By A.D. 240, Origen from Alexandria was using all our 27 books as “Scripture,” and no others, and referred to them as the “New Testament.”13 He believed them to be “inspired by the Spirit.”14 But it was not until A.D. 367 that Athanasius, also from Alexandria, provided us with an actual list of New Testament books identical with ours.15"
I find this interesting since certainly Origen and Clement of Alexandria and perhaps Athanasius were believers in apokatastasis, universal salvation. A view very widely held by the early church fathers. Isn't that heretical in your view?
"By A.D. 240, Origen from Alexandria was using all our 27 books as “Scripture,” and no others, and referred to them as the “New Testament.”13 He believed them to be “inspired by the Spirit.”14 But it was not until A.D. 367 that Athanasius, also from Alexandria, provided us with an actual list of New Testament books identical with ours.15"
I find this interesting since certainly Origen and Clement of Alexandria and perhaps Athanasius were believers in apokatastasis, universal salvation. A view very widely held by the early church fathers. Isn't that heretical in your view?
The gospel God's word or the entire cannon is not decided on by men as if God was served with human hands in any way shape or form
That's is a claim of Catholics as a law of the fathers . . not what the Bible teaches .God is in the business of moving men that he works in to both will and do His good pleasure.
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Why would we accredit the work of God to man? What's the hope in that?
Another aspect to this question is it is a objection based on morality. Basically the one who asks the question is questioning the actions of God who is the source of morality. Almost like the clay telling the potter I disagree with your methods lol.
It is even more troubling for a materialist that doesn't believe in morality but yet asks a question from their belief on morality as if their view is correct. But by their belief morality can only be subjective so technically if you can point this out then they will have two of their views in competition.
It is even more troubling for a materialist that doesn't believe in morality but yet asks a question from their belief on morality as if their view is correct. But by their belief morality can only be subjective so technically if you can point this out then they will have two of their views in competition.
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I haven’t posted in awhile here because most people, self included, have fully committed their thoughts to a belief. There is no teaching and learning, only lecturing and arguing. This is my understanding that should make sense to anyone who is seriously interested in wisdom over doctrine:
The “Word” of God, isn’t made up of letters (alphabet). Translating “logos”(Greek) to “word” is similar to taking a word meaning “liquid”, and translating it to “water”. Logos is where we get the word logic. It represents thoughts and order. Words are a representation of thought. Since we can’t read peoples minds, we agreed on an alphabet and order of words to communicate our thoughts to people by speaking and writing. This is so our thoughts are downloaded into someone else’s heads. From there it can affect their understanding and behaviour. The alphabet is more like the wire in an electric circuit. It conveys the power of the battery, to the lightbulb, so the light can shine. God is Power so we can shine. The Spirit can teach us directly but most prefer to follow men, and words written by men because they are carnally relatable.
To best describe logos, think of DNA. All of the information of how you started from a fertilized ovum. Then bang! As it unfolds, develops, sprouts and forms into a walking, talking, growing person. It wasn’t and accident. It was an ordered, engineered design.
Short story long...I know. The point is, and always has been, it’s not the words, it’s the message. The message that is designed to transform this world. It’s a call to act on the words, not just to read them. We are the hands and feet. He is the Logos, directing us, uniting us, as One. We are the Body, connected by the nervous system (Holy Spirit), moving to the impulses of the Brain, the Head our Lord, Christ.
As Paul wrote, don’t deceive yourself by merely reading the words, do what it says.
The “Word” of God, isn’t made up of letters (alphabet). Translating “logos”(Greek) to “word” is similar to taking a word meaning “liquid”, and translating it to “water”. Logos is where we get the word logic. It represents thoughts and order. Words are a representation of thought. Since we can’t read peoples minds, we agreed on an alphabet and order of words to communicate our thoughts to people by speaking and writing. This is so our thoughts are downloaded into someone else’s heads. From there it can affect their understanding and behaviour. The alphabet is more like the wire in an electric circuit. It conveys the power of the battery, to the lightbulb, so the light can shine. God is Power so we can shine. The Spirit can teach us directly but most prefer to follow men, and words written by men because they are carnally relatable.
To best describe logos, think of DNA. All of the information of how you started from a fertilized ovum. Then bang! As it unfolds, develops, sprouts and forms into a walking, talking, growing person. It wasn’t and accident. It was an ordered, engineered design.
Short story long...I know. The point is, and always has been, it’s not the words, it’s the message. The message that is designed to transform this world. It’s a call to act on the words, not just to read them. We are the hands and feet. He is the Logos, directing us, uniting us, as One. We are the Body, connected by the nervous system (Holy Spirit), moving to the impulses of the Brain, the Head our Lord, Christ.
As Paul wrote, don’t deceive yourself by merely reading the words, do what it says.
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It is according to how you define universal salvation. If you mean all mankind has the opportunity to respond by faith in natural revelation before Jesus or after Jesus by faith in Jesus then yes I agree. But if you mean salvation to all as in without faith then that definitely and easily is destroyed by scripture.
But if course you have main denominations that will disagree today on the topic of salvation as in some say Christ only died for a few pre elected number and not all have the opportunity.
But this technically has nothing to do with how the canon of the Bible came to be.
But if course you have main denominations that will disagree today on the topic of salvation as in some say Christ only died for a few pre elected number and not all have the opportunity.
But this technically has nothing to do with how the canon of the Bible came to be.
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K
There are promises to the saints throughout the Bible. If the Bible isn't infallible, how do we know any one of God's promises are true? Maybe someone made a mistake. While the Bible was written by human hands it was written under the unction of the Holy Spirit. Each thing that is written in the Bible is there for a reason.
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K
Jesus put much importance on His Word. He quoted Scripture Himself when the Pharisees came against Him. He taught from the Scriptures. Just because they didn't have a handheld Bible doesn't mean they didn't have Scriptures. If Christ saw the Word as important and used it as His defense, how much more should we find it important?!
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Universalism is the idea that hell is restorative and not forever and ever. That once purged people will be able to turn to God and be saved. It's an idea I share. ( I,m reading an excellent book on it called: Universalism, the prevailing doctrine of the Christian church during its first 500 years, by John Wesley Hanson). For another thread, I,m sure. But the point is that the article you sent me, about the bible canon, uses early church fathers as support for a holy spirit inspired set of scriptures that you would consider heretical; and therefore, not led by the spirit!
I think Christ teaching from scripture is different than man teaching from scripture. Because man is fallable and presumptuous, even if the Scipture is accurate it doesn’t mean the understanding by men is. I think the fact that the religious leaders of the day were incorrect and preaching their interpretation should make men question, “What if I have been taught wrong? If the Zealots of their day, reading from their own language were so off track, they crucified the Messish, how off track can I be?”
The answer has less to do with what you know, and more to do with what you are. As a born again believer, follower of Christ, you are grafted spiritually into the living God. The hand doesn’t need to read about how to grasp a cup. The message is sent through the nervous system. The Holy Spirit is our nervous system. We are intuitively, spiritually connected. We should all hear His voice avoiding argument regarding doctrine. The Christian message is simple...Love.
The answer has less to do with what you know, and more to do with what you are. As a born again believer, follower of Christ, you are grafted spiritually into the living God. The hand doesn’t need to read about how to grasp a cup. The message is sent through the nervous system. The Holy Spirit is our nervous system. We are intuitively, spiritually connected. We should all hear His voice avoiding argument regarding doctrine. The Christian message is simple...Love.
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1. The Hebrew Bible (the Tanakh) had 24 books in three major divisions (as confirmed and approved by Jesus Himself). The 39 books of our Old Testament are exactly the same, but several of the Hebrew books were divided, such as as Samuel, Kings, Chronicles and the twelve minor prophets (which are all in one book).
2. In the New Testament, there are only five books which do not plainly indicate that they are inspired. Which simply means that they do not declare their inspiration. But by the 2nd century, almost all the books of the NT were listed in the Muratori Canon. And the Syriac Peshitta from the 2nd century confirms the NT canon.
3. The Protestant Bibles (such as the original KJB) printed the Apocrypha and placed it between the Old and New Testaments. But also made it clear that it was not Scripture.
4. The corrupted Greek translation of the Hebrew Tanakh (the Septuagint or LXX from about 200 B.C.) included all the apocryphal books, but the Catholic and Orthodox Churches chose them selectively and included them in their bibles.
5. When the Catholic scholar Jerome translated the Bible from the original Hebrew and Greek into the Latin Vulgate (4th century AD), he was not inclined to include the Apocrypha, but was compelled to do so. Then the Catholic Council of Trent decided to call those seven extra books Scripture, and so Catholic bibles have the following extra books:
1. Tobit
2. Judith
3. Wisdom of Sirach
4. Ecclesiasticus
5. Baruch
6. 1 Maccabees
7. 2 Maccabees
The Orthodox bibles have a few more, and the LXX has quite a few more.
2. In the New Testament, there are only five books which do not plainly indicate that they are inspired. Which simply means that they do not declare their inspiration. But by the 2nd century, almost all the books of the NT were listed in the Muratori Canon. And the Syriac Peshitta from the 2nd century confirms the NT canon.
3. The Protestant Bibles (such as the original KJB) printed the Apocrypha and placed it between the Old and New Testaments. But also made it clear that it was not Scripture.
4. The corrupted Greek translation of the Hebrew Tanakh (the Septuagint or LXX from about 200 B.C.) included all the apocryphal books, but the Catholic and Orthodox Churches chose them selectively and included them in their bibles.
5. When the Catholic scholar Jerome translated the Bible from the original Hebrew and Greek into the Latin Vulgate (4th century AD), he was not inclined to include the Apocrypha, but was compelled to do so. Then the Catholic Council of Trent decided to call those seven extra books Scripture, and so Catholic bibles have the following extra books:
1. Tobit
2. Judith
3. Wisdom of Sirach
4. Ecclesiasticus
5. Baruch
6. 1 Maccabees
7. 2 Maccabees
The Orthodox bibles have a few more, and the LXX has quite a few more.
Kayla, the bible books don't have to be infallible to be deeply inspirational. You can experience God's love for yourself! Personally. Isn't that good news? Then you will have the holy spirit to speak to you through scriptures. Some people, I think, misunderstand me when I say the bible is not infallible or inerrant. They think I am saying it is useless and uninspired. Not so!
Hi thanks for the reply.
We must be careful how we hear if we desire to hear what the Spirt says to the churches. Sounds more like reincarnation .Is the what Universalism is?
The Bible speaks of two kinds of church fathers. The ones that claim cannon is in respect to venerable men seen, a law of the fathers (plural) And the other those who understand that God through the Holy Spirit moves men to perform his will, called a law of our father (singular) in heaven all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) .
Therefore those who walk by faith the unseen and those who walk by sight after what the eyes do see. . A clear distinction must be made between the things of men and those of God that is if we are to seek the approval of our father in heaven.
Paul coming from a sect that did practice a law of the fathers, plural, as oral traditions of men. Again not the law of our one Father in heaven, the scriptures . It became their nemesis they called sola scriptura heresy. It made their oral traditions without effect. In that way no man can serve to teaching masters.
Paul applies it to his own self. . . not to think of men as a law of the fathers above that which is written And it includes those who lay a false claim to fame they are the cannon assemblers. This is as if the work that worked in them was not freely given from heaven .
God is not served by human hands
1 Corinthians 4:5-7 King James Version (KJV) And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
Those who look to be venerated because of the work of God that possibly worked in them is called a law of the fathers. Oral tradition of men that make the scripture without effect. .
Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, (God's tradition the Bible) that ye may keep your own tradition. . . .(Law of the fathers)
We must be careful how we hear if we desire to hear what the Spirt says to the churches. Sounds more like reincarnation .Is the what Universalism is?
The Bible speaks of two kinds of church fathers. The ones that claim cannon is in respect to venerable men seen, a law of the fathers (plural) And the other those who understand that God through the Holy Spirit moves men to perform his will, called a law of our father (singular) in heaven all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) .
Therefore those who walk by faith the unseen and those who walk by sight after what the eyes do see. . A clear distinction must be made between the things of men and those of God that is if we are to seek the approval of our father in heaven.
Paul coming from a sect that did practice a law of the fathers, plural, as oral traditions of men. Again not the law of our one Father in heaven, the scriptures . It became their nemesis they called sola scriptura heresy. It made their oral traditions without effect. In that way no man can serve to teaching masters.
Paul applies it to his own self. . . not to think of men as a law of the fathers above that which is written And it includes those who lay a false claim to fame they are the cannon assemblers. This is as if the work that worked in them was not freely given from heaven .
God is not served by human hands
1 Corinthians 4:5-7 King James Version (KJV) And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
Those who look to be venerated because of the work of God that possibly worked in them is called a law of the fathers. Oral tradition of men that make the scripture without effect. .
Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, (God's tradition the Bible) that ye may keep your own tradition. . . .(Law of the fathers)
There are plenty of resources on universalism on the internet, so probably not for this thread.
I love Jesus because he is constantly trying to get people to go deeper into things. To him the motivation of the heart is primary. That's why he speaks out against the religious in his time. They have lost the point. Would he have a go at the church today , I wonder? When doctrines and beliefs obscure love and compassion? When I was a fundamentalist I upset my brother once by telling him he was going to hell. It was an abuse of him, and I deeply regret it. To me something has gone seriously wrong with christianity. The judgementalism, intolerance and self righteousness was surely not the message of Christ? I,m on this site to share what I have found, think, feel and to see if I can get to the heart of the message of Jesus. I think that the bible has been elevated to the level of an idol that can obscure the love of God.
I love Jesus because he is constantly trying to get people to go deeper into things. To him the motivation of the heart is primary. That's why he speaks out against the religious in his time. They have lost the point. Would he have a go at the church today , I wonder? When doctrines and beliefs obscure love and compassion? When I was a fundamentalist I upset my brother once by telling him he was going to hell. It was an abuse of him, and I deeply regret it. To me something has gone seriously wrong with christianity. The judgementalism, intolerance and self righteousness was surely not the message of Christ? I,m on this site to share what I have found, think, feel and to see if I can get to the heart of the message of Jesus. I think that the bible has been elevated to the level of an idol that can obscure the love of God.
I agree with that fully. My only concern is that like Paul, before Christ opened his eyes, was acting on misplaced zeal. Perhaps those who have a heart for Christ have adopted a less genuine doctrine. Maybe if some had heard the authentic Message rather than the fabricated ramblings of Joseph Smith, we would be gaining members rather than losing them in recent decades.