3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists

[Whispered]

Even God's elect, before they are born of the Holy Spirit, cannot discern the things of the spirit. God can do anything that he wants, but God does not allow his own elect to understand him until he has changed them to be born again with a new heart. I hate to repeat this, but your scriptures do not harmonize with all of the scriptures.

I'm not surprised you would repeat that. However your doctrine does not harmonize with the scriptures that inform us of the mission of Jesus Christ.

And what you say there is a travesty in that respect. God created people to be totally depraved and until He forces His grace into a person, they will not discern the things His Spirit communicated as His word. And until that forced grace, also called Irresistible Grace, is forced into God's elect they will not be able to come to faith until God forces that into them to as, Unconditional Election.
Then they can understand not by their own ability to come to Christ having heard the Good News that beckons those who are lost in their sins, but only when God does all the work so as to insure only those elect one's, can hear and understand.

That makes every single scripture , God breathed, that speaks of the whole world being part of God's plan of Salvation, a lie.

And God is not a man that He would lie.
"Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest." The Book of Matthew chapter 11 verse 28

And it came to pass when Jesus had finished commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and preach in their cities.

2 Now when John heard in the prison the works of the Christ, he sent by his disciples 3 and said unto him, Art thou he that cometh, or look we for another? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and tell John the things which ye hear and see: 5 the blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have [a]good tidings preached to them. 6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall find no occasion of stumbling in me.

7 And as these went their way, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to behold? a reed shaken with the wind? 8 But what went ye out to see? a man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they that wear soft raiment are in kings’ houses. 9 [b]But wherefore went ye out? to see a prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet. 10 This is he, of whom it is written,
[c]Behold, I send my messenger before thy face,
Who shall prepare thy way before thee.

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not arisen a greater than John the Baptist: yet he that is [d]but little in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and men of violence take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye are willing to receive [e]it, this is Elijah, that is to come. 15 He that hath ears [f]to hear, let him hear. 16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the marketplaces, who call unto their fellows 17 and say, We piped unto you, and ye did not dance; we wailed, and ye did not [g]mourn. 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a demon. 19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of [h]publicans and sinners! And wisdom [i]is justified by her [j]works.

20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his [k]mighty works were done, because they repented not. 21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the [l]mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon which were done in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, shalt thou be exalted unto heaven? thou shalt [m]go down unto Hades: for if the [n]mighty works had been done in Sodom which were done in thee, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say unto you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

25 At that season Jesus answered and said, I [o]thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes: 26 yea, Father, [p]for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight. 27 All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[Whispered]

why do some yet perish in their sins if all their sins are taken away?
how do they perish in what they do not have?

What about your doctrine of faith as pertains to that question? If God only saves His Elect from Sin then why would God take the sins of the whole world upon himself on the cross, when God did not intend the whole world to be saved from their sin?

 

[notuptome]

Goats can never become sheep. God separates them at the last day placing the sheep on the right and the goats on the left.

You mix analogies and entrench your error. Goats represent unsaved and sheep the saved of the nations of the earth. All are unsaved until they come to Christ and are saved by grace. The new birth in Christ is when they become new creatures.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Whispered]

um, i was talking about God, not Mssr. Calvin..?

what does John 12:37-40 mean?

What an excellent chapter to cite. In its entirety so that we may, as you say, talk about God, not John Calvin. I've colored those passages you cite in your remarks quoted above so that they may be read into the full context of our Lord's teaching below.
The Book of John chapter 12
Jesus therefore six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, whom Jesus raised from the dead. 2 So they made him a supper there: and Martha served; but Lazarus was one of them that [a]sat at meat with him. 3 Mary therefore took a pound of ointment of [b]pure nard, very precious, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odor of the ointment. 4 But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples, that should [c]betray him, saith, 5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred [d]shillings, and given to the poor? 6 Now this he said, not because he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and having the [e]bag [f]took away what was put therein. 7 Jesus therefore said, [g]Suffer her to keep it against the day of my burying. 8 For the poor ye have always with you; but me ye have not always.

9 The common people therefore of the Jews learned that he was there: and they came, not for Jesus’ sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead. 10 But the chief priests took counsel that they might put Lazarus also to death; 11 because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

12 On the morrow [h]a great multitude that had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 13 took the branches of the palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried out, Hosanna: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel. 14 And Jesus, having found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, 15 [i]Fear not, daughter of Zion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass’s colt. 16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him. 17 The multitude therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of the tomb, and raised him from the dead, bare witness. 18 For this cause also the multitude went and met him, for that they heard that he had done this sign. 19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, [j]Behold how ye prevail nothing; lo, the world is gone after him.

20 Now there were certain Greeks among those that went up to worship at the feast: 21 these therefore came to Philip, who was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and asked him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. 22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: Andrew cometh, and Philip, and they tell Jesus. 23 And Jesus answereth them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a grain of wheat fall into the earth and die, it abideth by itself alone; but if it die, it beareth much fruit. 25 He that loveth his [k]life loseth it; and he that hateth his [l]life in this world shall keep it unto [m]life eternal. 26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will the Father honor. 27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this [n]hour. But for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. There came therefore a voice out of heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 29 The multitude therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it had thundered: others said, An angel hath spoken to him. 30 Jesus answered and said, This voice hath not come for my sake, but for your sakes. 31 Now is [o]the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up [p]from the earth, will draw all men unto myself. 33 But this he said, signifying by what manner of death he should die. 34 The multitude therefore answered him, We have heard out of the law that the Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man? 35 Jesus therefore said unto them, Yet a little while is the light [q]among you. Walk while ye have the light, that darkness overtake you not: and he that walketh in the darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 36 While ye have the light, believe on the light, that ye may become sons of light.
These things spake Jesus, and he departed and [r]hid himself from them. 37 But though he had done so many signs before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,
[s]Lord, who hath believed our report?
And to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39 For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again,

40 [t]He hath blinded their eyes, and he hardened their heart;
Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart,
And should turn,
And I should heal them.

41 These things said Isaiah, because he saw his glory; and he spake of him. 42 Nevertheless even of the rulers many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess [u]it, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 43 for they loved the glory that is of men more than the glory that is of God.

44 And Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that beholdeth me beholdeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me may not abide in the darkness. 47 And if any man hear my sayings, and keep them not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, he hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life eternal; the things therefore which I speak, even as the Father hath said unto me, so I speak.

FOOTNOTES

 

[ForestGreenCook]

What about your doctrine of faith as pertains to that question? If God only saves His Elect from Sin then why would God take the sins of the whole world upon himself on the cross, when God did not intend the whole world to be saved from their sin?

Read John 6:38 again, and, again, and, again and maybe you will finally see the words "all that the Father gave me" and also, "I will lose none, but raise them up at the last day". That does not mean all mankind, and you are smart enough to know that, I think!!!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You mix analogies and entrench your error. Goats represent unsaved and sheep the saved of the nations of the earth. All are unsaved until they come to Christ and are saved by grace. The new birth in Christ is when they become new creatures.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You are right, that the new birth makes new creatures out of them, but you are wrong about "they come to Christ". Eph 2 says they were yet dead (spiritually) in their sins when God quickened them. Spiritually dead men cannot react toward a God who is a Spirit that they cannot discern (1 Cor 2:14). God only quickens his elect. In God's mind they never were goats. When Jesus died for them on the cross it made them, in God's eyes, holy and without blame.

 

[Whispered]

Read John 6:38 again, and, again, and, again and maybe you will finally see the words "all that the Father gave me" and also, "I will lose none, but raise them up at the last day". That does not mean all mankind, and you are smart enough to know that, I think!!!

I've read that. I think I'm also smart enough to know that Jesus wasn't speaking of those whom He had forced into His grace, so he would force them into faith, while allowing the rest of humanity whom He'd created to be Totally Depraved , were to remain as such by His will.

Jesus mission was to take the sins of the world upon Himself on the cross. That death was sufficient to pay the price for all sins in the world, as the Book of 1st John chapter 2 and verse 2 tells us. "and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. "
Propitiation -Strong's Concordance
hilasmos: propitiation
Original Word: ἱλασμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hilasmos
Phonetic Spelling: (hil-as-mos')
Definition: propitiation
Usage: a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice.
HELPS Word-studies
2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós ("propitiation").

 

[Whispered]

You are right, that the new birth makes new creatures out of them, but you are wrong about "they come to Christ". Eph 2 says they were yet dead (spiritually) in their sins when God quickened them. Spiritually dead men cannot react toward a God who is a Spirit that they cannot discern (1 Cor 2:14). God only quickens his elect. In God's mind they never were goats. When Jesus died for them on the cross it made them, in God's eyes, holy and without blame.

The atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross paid for the sins of the whole world. That payment is effective, efficacious, for the one who believes that Jesus die for them. The Book of Romans chapter 10 and particularly verses 9 thru 13.
You'll note that the Saint Apostle Paul makes an astute observation in this letter that refutes TULIP. Particularly the T, Total Depravity. That's in verses 14, 15, and 17.

Brethren, my heart’s [a]desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses writeth that [b]the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith saith thus, [c]Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down 7 or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? [d]The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach: 9 [e]because if thou shalt [f]confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: 10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, [g]Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame. 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: 13 for, [h]Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, [i]How beautiful are the feet of them that bring [j]glad tidings of good things!

16 But they did not all hearken to the [k]glad tidings. For Isaiah saith, [l]Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily,
[m]Their sound went out into all the earth,
And their words unto the ends of [n]the world.

19 But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses saith,
[o]I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation,
With a nation void of understanding will I anger you.

20 And Isaiah is very bold, and saith,
[p]I was found of them that sought me not;
I became manifest unto them that asked not of me.

21 But as to Israel he saith, [q]All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

 

[Whispered]

The atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross paid for the sins of the whole world. That payment is effective, efficacious, for the one who believes that Jesus die for them. The Book of Romans chapter 10 and particularly verses 9 thru 13.
You'll note that the Saint Apostle Paul makes an astute observation in this letter that refutes TULIP. Particularly the T, Total Depravity. That's in verses 14, 15, and 17.

Brethren, my heart’s [a]desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses writeth that [b]the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith saith thus, [c]Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down 7 or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? [d]The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach: 9 [e]because if thou shalt [f]confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: 10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, [g]Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame. 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: 13 for, [h]Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, [i]How beautiful are the feet of them that bring [j]glad tidings of good things!

16 But they did not all hearken to the [k]glad tidings. For Isaiah saith, [l]Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily,
[m]Their sound went out into all the earth,
And their words unto the ends of [n]the world.

19 But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses saith,
[o]I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation,
With a nation void of understanding will I anger you.

20 And Isaiah is very bold, and saith,
[p]I was found of them that sought me not;
I became manifest unto them that asked not of me.

21 But as to Israel he saith, [q]All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Commentary Romans 10:20

• But Esaias is very bold, and saith
  The apostle here produces another testimony in proof of this, that the Israelites must needs have some knowledge of this truth, the calling of the Gentiles; since a famous prophet of theirs, Isaiah, also spake out with great freedom; he did not mince the matter, or cover it with dark sayings, but with all plainness and perspicuity, and with great courage and intrepidity declared it; though he knew he run the risk, not only of his fame and credit among the Jews, but of his life also, for so doing: the citation is made from ( Isaiah 65:1) .
  I was found of them that sought me not, I was made manifest unto
  them that asked not after me;
  here also the Gentiles are meant by "them that sought me not, and asked not after me"; the Messiah; and so R. Moses the priest says F14, that these words are to be understood, (Mlweh twmwa le) , "concerning the nations of the world". The common people among them sought after the things of the world; their philosophers sought after the wisdom of it; and the more devout and religious among them sought the observance of superstitious rites and ceremonies, and, at best and most, a little morality and external righteousness; but none sought after Christ, for they knew nothing of him, and therefore did not so much as ask after him; they did not ask counsel of him, nor ask concerning him, nor ask for him; not for his coming into the world, as the Jews did, nor for the preaching of the Gospel among them, for it came among them unasked for, unexpected, and undesired, as well as undeserved by them, nor for any blessing of his; and yet such was his grace and goodness, that he was "found" of these persons, in the preaching of the Gospel; which by his kind providence was brought among them, and they were brought under the hearing of it; and by the Spirit of God directed to him in it, in whom they found life, peace, pardon, righteousness, food, and rest, and every valuable blessing; a pearl of great price they found, a finding which can never be lost: he is also said to be "made manifest" unto them, not in the flesh, but in the ministry of the word; in which his person, blood, righteousness, and sacrifice, are evidently set forth, and clearly manifested; and besides the outward manifestation of Christ to them by the Gospel, they had no internal revelation of him in their hearts by his Spirit, setting forth to them his grace and fulness, and showing them their interest therein: from this prophecy, also, the Jews could not but have some knowledge of this mystery of grace.
  
  FOOTNOTES:
  
  F14 In Aben Ezra in Isa. lxv. 1.

• Romans 10:19
• Romans 10:21

Read Romans 10:20

 

[posthuman]

What about your doctrine of faith as pertains to that question? If God only saves His Elect from Sin then why would God take the sins of the whole world upon himself on the cross, when God did not intend the whole world to be saved from their sin?

what is it you think "my doctrine" is?

i've just been asking questions - except for trying patiently to correct your obvious error w/regard to whether sin existed before the law - i haven't been arguing any doctrine at all, AFAIK.

is atonement the same as bearing the sin?
the scriptures say He made propitiation for all, and bore the sins of "many"
if He made atonement for all - does that mean all are saved? what do you believe?

 

[Whispered]

what is it you think "my doctrine" is?

i've just been asking questions - except for trying patiently to correct your obvious error w/regard to whether sin existed before the law - i haven't been arguing any doctrine at all, AFAIK.

You need not show patience with my error but perhaps show contrition toward your own. The law pre-existed sin. As the Saint Apostle Paul said, where there is no law there is no transgression (of the law, i.e. sin) As was evident in Genesis. But we've gone through this already.

The Saint Apostle Paul was correct in the sense that sin was in the (newly created) world before the law, being that Lucifer in whom all unrighteousness was found, was on the earth in those days so as to slither in and lead Eve to violate the Father's law concerning the knowledge tree.
That the law of God predated Eve's sin is evidence that the law itself was in the world before Eve ate of the apple and then led Adam to eat thereof also. As we're told, by one man, Adam, did sin enter the world.

is atonement the same as bearing the sin? the scriptures say He made propitiation for all, and bore the sins of "

many"
if He made atonement for all - does that mean all are saved? what do you believe?

Jesus was the Propitiation for the whole world's sins.
Strong's Concordance
hilasmos: propitiation
Original Word: ἱλασμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hilasmos
Phonetic Spelling: (hil-as-mos')
Definition: propitiation
Usage: a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice.
HELPS Word-studies
2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós ("propitiation").

Jesus sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to pay the price for the sins of the whole world. The Book of 1st John chapter 2 verse 2 “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”
However, the scriptures say we must believe. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him will not perish in their sins but shall have immortal life.
Jesus' sacrifice was effective , as that passage tells us, for those who believe. As the Saint Apostle Paul relates in his letter to the Romans, chapter 10 and particularly verses 9 thru 13.

 

[posthuman]

You need not show patience with my error but perhaps show contrition toward your own. The law pre-existed sin. As the Saint Apostle Paul said, where there is no law there is no transgression (of the law, i.e. sin) As was evident in Genesis. But we've gone through this already.

um, yah we've already seen, Paul said extremely clearly "to be sure sin was in the world before the law"
and yah, i've explained to you that your denying this logically leads to sinless Satan being cast from heaven for - what, no reason? the capriciousness of God? i.e. your position on this calls God evil.

Jesus was the Propitiation for the whole world's sins.
Strong's Concordance
hilasmos: propitiation
Original Word: ἱλασμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hilasmos
Phonetic Spelling: (hil-as-mos')
Definition: propitiation
Usage: a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice.
HELPS Word-studies
2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós ("propitiation").

Jesus sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to pay the price for the sins of the whole world. The Book of 1st John chapter 2 verse 2 “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”
However, the scriptures say we must believe. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him will not perish in their sins but shall have immortal life.
Jesus' sacrifice was effective , as that passage tells us, for those who believe. As the Saint Apostle Paul relates in his letter to the Romans, chapter 10 and particularly verses 9 thru 13.

none of this even addresses my questions at all.
i really don't think you comprehend much of what i ask or say -- i'm trying to be clear:

the scripture says He made propitiation for all.
the scripture does not say He bore the sins of all - but "many"

are all saved?
does atoning for your sin = salvation?
does bearing your sin = salvation?
does propitiation = bearing your sin?
both? neither? one or the other?

you say Jesus' sacrifice was effective for those who believe -- is your position then that His sacrifice was not for the whole world, only for those who believe? or was God ineffective in His purpose, and He 'failed' to atone for some?
why does it matter that the Bible says only "many" have their sins carried by Him but also says "all" have their sins atoned for in Him?
or does it not matter? are all these words interchangeable and God didn't really use different words in different places for any reason other than 'variety' to keep our interest while we read?

i will say - here is my position on that - i believe when God means "sin" He has "sin" written in His book, and when He means "transgression" He has transgression written, and i believe God is wise enough to know the difference and that He does so for very certain reasons. i believe He says "many" when He means "many" and "all" when He means "all" and He says "propitiation" when He means "propitiation" and "bear" when He means "bear" -- i don't think God screws that up and puts the wrong word in the wrong place so humans need to correct Him or replace words with what they figure He meant to say. God means what He says, says what He means, and does what He says He will do.
that's "my doctrine" if you want to attack it. but i'd rather you work at figuring out answers to the questions i have; i ask them because i believe they need answering.

 

[Whispered]

um, yah we've already seen, Paul said extremely clearly "to be sure sin was in the world before the law"
and yah, i've explained to you that your denying this logically leads to sinless Satan being cast from heaven for - what, no reason? the capriciousness of God? i.e. your position on this calls God evil.

You don't get that Paul could have been misquoted, or misinterpreted? You can't consolidate Paul saying that where there is no law there is no transgression, sin, with what you insist is meant by Paul saying , to be sure sin was in the world before the law.
You have Paul contradicting himself.
And you have no logic applying to your misunderstanding of Lucifer's fall from Heaven. Is it because you do not know why he was cast out so as to become later known as ha Satan, Adversary?

none of this even addresses my questions at all.
i really don't think you comprehend much of what i ask or say -- i'm trying to be clear:

No, you're trying to be argumentative because you will not concede your point. Furthermore, you are misrepresenting in that quest the truth of the scriptural account of Jesus on the cross.
propitiation[prəˌpiSHēˈāSHən]

NOUN

1.the action of propitiating or appeasing a god, spirit, or person.
"he lifted his hands in propitiation"

• atonement, especially that of Jesus Christ.

the scripture says He made propitiation for all.
the scripture does not say He bore the sins of all - but "

many"

The Book of Hebrews chapter 2 verse 17 Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
The Book of 1st John chapter 2 verse 2 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 3:21-26 21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished- 26he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

are all saved?
does atoning for your sin = salvation?
does bearing your sin = salvation?
does propitiation = bearing your sin?
both? neither? one or the other?
you say Jesus' sacrifice was effective for those who believe -- is your position then that His sacrifice was not for the whole world, only for those who believe? or was God ineffective in His purpose, and He 'failed' to atone for some?
why does it matter that the Bible says only "many" have their sins carried by Him but also says "all" have their sins atoned for in Him?
or does it not matter? are all these words interchangeable and God didn't really use different words in different places for any reason other than 'variety' to keep our interest while we read?

I think you're now being facetious. You are well aware of the verses that tell us Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself on the cross. You are well aware, though you appear to deny, the import of the Book of John chapter 3 and verse 16.

i will say - here is my position on that - i believe when God means "sin" He has "sin" written in His book, and when He means "transgression" He has transgression written, and i believe God is wise enough to know the difference and that He does so for very certain reasons. i believe He says "many" when He means "many" and "all" when He means "all" and He says "propitiation" when He means "propitiation" and "bear" when He means "bear" -- i don't think God screws that up and puts the wrong word in the wrong place so humans need to correct Him or replace words with what they figure He meant to say. God means what He says, says what He means, and does what He says He will do.

Interesting that you don't believe God meant it when he said Jesus took the sins of the whole world upon himself on the cross. That whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have immortal life.

that's "my doctrine" if you want to attack it. but i'd rather you work at figuring out answers to the questions i have; i ask them because i believe they need answering.

To be clear, it is your words that claim I attack your doctrine. I believe your doctrine needs to be reviewed and addressed to see if it comports with scripture.

 

[Whispered]

You don't get that Paul could have been misquoted, or misinterpreted? You can't consolidate Paul saying that where there is no law there is no transgression, sin, with what you insist is meant by Paul saying , to be sure sin was in the world before the law.
You have Paul contradicting himself.
And you have no logic applying to your misunderstanding of Lucifer's fall from Heaven. Is it because you do not know why he was cast out so as to become later known as ha Satan, Adversary?



No, you're trying to be argumentative because you will not concede your point. Furthermore, you are misrepresenting in that quest the truth of the scriptural account of Jesus on the cross.
propitiation[prəˌpiSHēˈāSHən]

NOUN

1.the action of propitiating or appeasing a god, spirit, or person.
"he lifted his hands in propitiation"

• atonement, especially that of Jesus Christ.

The Book of Hebrews chapter 2 verse 17 Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
The Book of 1st John chapter 2 verse 2 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 3:21-26 21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished- 26he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.




I think you're now being facetious. You are well aware of the verses that tell us Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself on the cross. You are well aware, though you appear to deny, the import of the Book of John chapter 3 and verse 16.


Interesting that you don't believe God meant it when he said Jesus took the sins of the whole world upon himself on the cross. That whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have immortal life.

To be clear, it is your words that claim I attack your doctrine. I believe your doctrine needs to be reviewed and addressed to see if it comports with scripture.

I will say, the system here has put quote blocks repeatedly in some of my post above when I separated parts of PH's reply, and I in the time allotted have corrected those system errors. Time and again as I do that the system reverts it back to what was there prior. Odd.

 

[notuptome]

You are right, that the new birth makes new creatures out of them, but you are wrong about "they come to Christ". Eph 2 says they were yet dead (spiritually) in their sins when God quickened them. Spiritually dead men cannot react toward a God who is a Spirit that they cannot discern (1 Cor 2:14). God only quickens his elect. In God's mind they never were goats. When Jesus died for them on the cross it made them, in God's eyes, holy and without blame.

You do not heed what God is telling you. You remain lost in your own conceits and vanities.

God calls the whosoever wills to come to Him. John 3:18-21 is a passage you need to study and glean from it knowledge.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Moses_Young]

Calvinism is said to be making a resurgence in America of late. I don't know about that (article), however, I do know it appears to be surging through BDF here.
Calvinism, also called The Reformed Doctrine, cannot in all its formula, TULIP included, make sense of the crucifixion and still affirm its own tenets.

I'm not sure that "Calvinism" was specifically defined, so my response is focused around the TULIP acronym provided. Although more Calvinist-leaning than Armenian-leaning, I believe some aspects of both beliefs have scriptural support.

T = TOTAL DEPRAVITY = No one can believe the Gospel unless he is first regenerated
Inaccurate. But, no one can believe the Gospel unless the Father calls him, so we cannot boast.
John 6:44 No man can come to me [Jesus], except the Father which hath sent me [Jesus] draw him: and I [Jesus] will raise him up at the last day.

U = UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION = God chooses some for salvation and many for damnation
Although it may not palettable to us, this does seem the scriptural position, at least so far as choosing salvation for some. In this, we should remember that salvation is an act of mercy by God, in that all of us would rightfully be damned. The damnation for the others could also be attributed to the the others rejection of Christ. i.e. God provides those who reject His mercy strength to continue in their rejection of His mercy (e.g. as He hardened Pharaoh's heart in Exodus).

Romans 9:11
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

L = LIMITED ATONEMENT = Christ died only for the elect, and if you are not one of them, you are out of luck
Unscriptural, in my view.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God's offer of salvation is for "whosoever believeth in Him", not a select few. However, only the elect will benefit from the sacrifice of Christ, simply because they are those who "believeth in Him".

I = IRRESISTIBLE GRACE = If you are one of the elect, you can't help but be saved
While this may technically be true from an omniscient perspective (i.e. God's perspective), for one to rely on this rather than believing on Christ crucified most likely means that one is among the damned, rather than one of the elect.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

P = PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS = The elect will persevere in their Christianity
1 John 2:19
Accurate.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[posthuman]

You don't get that Paul could have been misquoted, or misinterpreted?

i sure do know Paul can be misinterpreted: case in point:

To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given
(Romans 5:13)

sin did not exist and was not in the world before the law was given
(Whispered)
​

You can't consolidate Paul saying that where there is no law there is no transgression, sin, with what you insist is meant by Paul saying , to be sure sin was in the world before the law.
You have Paul contradicting himself.

Paul is not contradicting himself; you are misinterpreting the second half of this verse, ignoring the first half of it, and failing to recognize that there are two very different words being used. ((is that "3 tactics arminians use?" lol))

ἁμαρτία hamartia​

Word Origin​

from hamartanó​

Definition​

a sin, failure​

NASB Translation​

sin (96), sinful (2), sins (75)​

​

παράβασις parabasis ​

Word Origin​

from parabainó​

Definition​

a going aside, a transgression​

NASB Translation​

breaking (1), offense (1), transgression (2), transgressions (2), violation (1)
​

"sin" and "transgression" are not the same thing. "transgression" is a particular type of sin which signifies sin being imputed by means of countermanding law, and cannot exist when there is no law. not all transgression is sin and not all sin is transgression.
because you conflate these two, you are the one making the Bible contradict itself.

To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given​

(Romans 5:13)

where there is no law there is no transgression
(Romans 4:15) ​

these two sayings are in perfect harmony with each other. sin existed and existed also in the world before the law was given. transgression did not exist before law, but sin did. they are not the same things. related, but not identical.
sin was in the world without the law, but sin was not imputed until the law was given.

And you have no logic applying to your misunderstanding of Lucifer's fall from Heaven. Is it because you do not know why he was cast out so as to become later known as ha Satan, Adversary?

when was sin first found in Satan?
you say, before sin existed.
i say, that's ridiculous.

 

[posthuman]

Interesting that you don't believe God meant it when he said Jesus took the sins of the whole world upon himself on the cross.

it doesn't say that.
it says He made propitiation for all.
it says He bore the sins of many.

just like with "sin" and "transgression" you are conflating "making propitiation for" and "bearing the sin of" -- and it logically leads to profound contradictions. with your sin/transgression error, you have Satan being cast out of heaven before sin even existed, so Satan must have been sinless -- therefore you call God unjust & evil. with your atonement/bearing error, you have sinless people condemned to hell for sin -- therefore in the same way you call God unjust & evil.
of course you aren't literally saying, 'God is evil' -- you are not able to logically follow through the implications of what you are saying. you are too busy being too proud to receive correction and too angry at the thought that you need to be corrected to think clearly about it. i think this is why your replies show that you hardly comprehend anything i have been telling you this week; you're too upset to recognize what i am saying.
please calm down. we're not enemies. this is only about, Romans 5:13 is very clearly stated, and you are very clearly saying exactly the opposite of what it says. it is a very simple thing to correct.

I believe your doctrine needs to be reviewed and addressed to see if it comports with scripture.

what i said was "my doctrine" is that God means what He says and He doesn't use words accidentally and doesn't need His vocabulary to be corrected by human eisegesis.

do you think that idea is contrary to scripture?
what that doctrine is, is essentially this: "God is not a liar: the scripture is true"
do we need to review that???

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I've read that. I think I'm also smart enough to know that Jesus wasn't speaking of those whom He had forced into His grace, so he would force them into faith, while allowing the rest of humanity whom He'd created to be Totally Depraved , were to remain as such by His will.

Jesus mission was to take the sins of the world upon Himself on the cross. That death was sufficient to pay the price for all sins in the world, as the Book of 1st John chapter 2 and verse 2 tells us. "and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. "
Propitiation -Strong's Concordance
hilasmos: propitiation
Original Word: ἱλασμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hilasmos
Phonetic Spelling: (hil-as-mos')
Definition: propitiation
Usage: a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice.
HELPS Word-studies
2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós ("propitiation").

When you take the position that Jesus died for all mankind, you have to completely ignore the simplicity of the language in John 6:38, and here I go again, reminding you that all scriptures must harmonize and you cannot ignore them, just because you do not know how to explain them. 1 John 2 - John is speaking to an audience of believers telling them "not for ours only" but that there will be a whole world of believers born into this world after the death of those he is speaking to. The scriptures are written in a mystery to dumbfound the wise and prudent. The scriptures can be compared to a puzzle. You can pick up a piece (scripture) that has all of the ears positioned in the right place and are the right size and color, but if you have to force a piece into a place that it does not belong, you will never be able to see the finished picture, because you will have a lot of pieces (scriptures) left over that are not used (they must all harmonize).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You do not heed what God is telling you. You remain lost in your own conceits and vanities.

God calls the whosoever wills to come to Him. John 3:18-21 is a passage you need to study and glean from it knowledge.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Verse 21- "but he that doeth truth cometh to the light" 1 Cor 2:14 - The natural man that is spiritually dead cannot discern spiritual truths and therefore will not doeth truth or cometh to a spiritual light until, Eph 2, God quickens him to a spiritual life. All scripture must harmonize before you can understand the doctrine that Jesus taught.