3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists

[posthuman]

I think you're now being facetious. You are well aware of the verses that tell us Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself on the cross. You are well aware, though you appear to deny, the import of the Book of John chapter 3 and verse 16.

you say this because you do not hear what i am saying. i am saying what the scripture says: He made atonement for all; He bore the sins of many. if this were not so, how is it He says to those who do not believe Him, "you will die in your sins" ?
how do they have sins to die in if He has taken them upon Himself? to all, He has made atonement. to those who accept Him, He has borne their sin. the way you are conflating these two leads to universal salvation, which i think we both certainly agree is contradictory to what the scripture says.

this is what i believe: one drop of His blood is sufficient to atone for all the sins of the whole world, and this is why He shed it. however not all believe, and therefore those who do not, remain in their sin; whoever does not believe is condemned, bearing their own sin, and whoever believes, He bears their sin, and they are not condemned.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross paid for the sins of the whole world. That payment is effective, efficacious, for the one who believes that Jesus die for them. The Book of Romans chapter 10 and particularly verses 9 thru 13.
You'll note that the Saint Apostle Paul makes an astute observation in this letter that refutes TULIP. Particularly the T, Total Depravity. That's in verses 14, 15, and 17.

Brethren, my heart’s [a]desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses writeth that [b]the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith saith thus, [c]Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down 7 or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? [d]The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach: 9 [e]because if thou shalt [f]confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: 10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, [g]Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame. 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: 13 for, [h]Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, [i]How beautiful are the feet of them that bring [j]glad tidings of good things!

16 But they did not all hearken to the [k]glad tidings. For Isaiah saith, [l]Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily,
[m]Their sound went out into all the earth,
And their words unto the ends of [n]the world.

19 But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses saith,
[o]I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation,
With a nation void of understanding will I anger you.

20 And Isaiah is very bold, and saith,
[p]I was found of them that sought me not;
I became manifest unto them that asked not of me.

21 But as to Israel he saith, [q]All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Salvation is "a deliverance". If you believe that you are eternally delivered by your good works then your quote from Romans 10:9 would hold up as truth. I do not think the other scriptures will harmonize with the idea that our good works will deliver us eternally, however, our good works will deliver us as we sojourn here on earth, such as Romans 10:9 suggests. If all salvation scriptures are used to mean an eternal deliverance the scriptures will not harmonize. Romans 10 starts out speaking to and about regenerated children of God who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They are already saved (delivered) eternally and in verse 9 they are delivered here in this world the moment that they follow his instructions to confess and believe. Verse 9 is still on the subject of convincing them to give up on their good works to deliver them eternally and believing that it is Jesus that delivered them eternally.

 

[Whispered]

you say this because you do not hear what i am saying. i am saying what the scripture says: He made atonement for all; He bore the sins of many. if this were not so, how is it He says to those who do not believe Him, "you will die in your sins" ?

No, I made the observation because you assume a defensive posture when encountering those who question Calvinist doctrine and then become rude in the process. That's not the sign of a secure position in Apologetics.

how do they have sins to die in if He has taken them upon Himself? to all, He has made atonement. to those who accept Him, He has borne their sin. the way you are conflating these two leads to universal salvation, which i think we both certainly agree is contradictory to what the scripture says.

No, Calvinism corrupts scripture and twists it to fit into one man's ideal vision of God. A God that creates all humanity to be Totally Depraved, for all that is defined as in Calvin's doctrine. And then from among those predestined to suffer that destiny, He predetermines, all this before creation, whom from among the many damned He shall select to put by His own power not just into His grace, but allow to hold faith in Him.
And this occurred after He came into the world as Jesus.
What of the Old Testament peoples? Did they simply perish in total Totally Depraved? Because God had not yet come as the Christ of the New Testament?

And why would eternally knowing God send Himself as Jesus so as to take the sins of the entire world for all time upon Himself on the cross when He had already predetermined the select few whom He would actually save from those sins? Making the foretelling of the cause of Christ's birth, whosoever, null and void.
Yes, the Elect are referred to in scripture. However, Reformed , Re-Formed Theology, corrupts the promise. Re-Formed Theology makes everything concerning Salvation God's doing. And then there are those who argue still that even as those Elect of God under that doctrine of Re-Formed Theology, those elect are still Totally Depraved and able to sin.
Which is why critics note concerning Perseverance of the Saints, that OSAS, which is part of PS, gives license to sin at will without fear.
Re-Formed Theology teaches God is the source of Double Predestination. He predestined His select number of those he first created Totally Depraved to save from that condition and imbue them with faith. None of which they can do on their own due to being created TOTALLY Depraved. And that would mean He also predetermined those whom remained Totally Depraved to suffer Hell.

Jesus in fact under those clauses in Re-Formed Theology did not have to die. Because God, who was Jesus, did everything as pertains to saving grace himself. After the death of Jesus. Becaus the Totally Depraved are not capable of holding faith until God inbues them with faith after he's imbued them with His Grace.
This is why some who follow the Re-Formed Theology believe that the scripture references to the wide and narrow road can both be traveled by the Elect. They can do no thing to remove God's grace from them and their future because they did no thing to enter into that grace nor did they choose to hold faith in God because they were created incapable of that as the Totally Depraved of God. And as some believe, remain so even after God works that all out for them.

This is what i believe: one drop of His blood is sufficient to atone for all the sins of the whole world, and this is why He shed it. however not all believe, and therefore those who do not, remain in their sin; whoever does not believe is condemned, bearing their own sin, and whoever believes, He bears their sin, and they are not condemned.

That's not what the scripture says.

I am so grateful God is merciful. God knows the heart of all people and I hope that the countless people who followed Calvin straight to Hell are at the judgment given mercy because they were led by a highly gifted mouthpiece of His great Adversary.
Mayhaps my Father will even deem to have mercy on John Calvin himself. Once a Roman Catholic who never fully cast off that faith system so as to manifest his own using the delusions of others so as to have the result be his namesake for all time; Calvinism.

God is Love. It is entirely possible . For John knew not his fate when he was led by the spirit of the Adversary of my Father so as to lead countless people into Hell.
And not so surprising, as this world is full of strife, some insist they are correct to believe in Calvin as they follow the compass straight toward that destination.

 

[Whispered]

The Book of 1st Timothy chapter 4
4 But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 through the hypocrisy of men that speak lies, [a]branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron; 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by them that believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 for it is sanctified through the word of God and prayer.
6 If thou put the brethren in mind of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished in the words of the faith, and of the good doctrine which thou hast followed until now: 7 but refuse profane and old wives’ fables. And exercise thyself unto godliness: 8 for bodily exercise is profitable [b]for a little; but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life which now is, and of that which is to come. 9 Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe. 11 These things command and teach. 12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an ensample to them that believe, in word, in manner of life, in love, in faith, in purity. 13 Till I come, give heed to reading, to exhortation, to teaching. 14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 15 Be diligent in these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy progress may be manifest unto all. 16 Take heed to thyself, and to thy teaching. Continue in these things; for in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee.


Footnotes

1. 1 Timothy 4:2 Or, seared
2. 1 Timothy 4:8 Or, for little

The Book of Revelation chapter 22
17 [r]And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add [s]unto them, God shall add [t]unto him the plagues which are written in this book: 19 and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, [u]which are written in this book.



The Book of Isaiah chapter 55
Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. 2 Wherefore do ye [a]spend money for that which is not bread? and your [b]labor for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. 3 Incline your ear, and come unto me; hear, and your soul shall live: and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. 4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the peoples, a [c]leader and commander to the peoples. 5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not; and a nation that knew not thee shall run unto thee, because of Jehovah thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
6 Seek ye Jehovah while he may be found; call ye upon him while he is near: 7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto Jehovah, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, and giveth seed to the sower and bread to the eater; 11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. 12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing; and all the trees of the fields shall clap their hands. 13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir-tree; and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle-tree: and it shall be to Jehovah for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.
FOOTNOTES




May every Calvinist here, every single one for whom Re-Formed Theology speaks truth as they accept God created them Totally Depraved, wake up! May God get past the armor of falsity that currently captures your mind and heart so that the truth of God in Christ shall forever set you free. While there is still time. Amen.

 

[posthuman]

No, I made the observation because you assume a defensive posture when encountering those who question Calvinist doctrine and then become rude in the process. That's not the sign of a secure position in Apologetics.

No, Calvinism corrupts scripture and twists it to fit into one man's ideal vision of God. A God that creates all humanity to be Totally Depraved, for all that is defined as in Calvin's doctrine. And then from among those predestined to suffer that destiny, He predetermines, all this before creation, whom from among the many damned He shall select to put by His own power not just into His grace, but allow to hold faith in Him.
And this occurred after He came into the world as Jesus.
What of the Old Testament peoples? Did they simply perish in total Totally Depraved? Because God had not yet come as the Christ of the New Testament?

And why would eternally knowing God send Himself as Jesus so as to take the sins of the entire world for all time upon Himself on the cross when He had already predetermined the select few whom He would actually save from those sins? Making the foretelling of the cause of Christ's birth, whosoever, null and void.
Yes, the Elect are referred to in scripture. However, Reformed , Re-Formed Theology, corrupts the promise. Re-Formed Theology makes everything concerning Salvation God's doing. And then there are those who argue still that even as those Elect of God under that doctrine of Re-Formed Theology, those elect are still Totally Depraved and able to sin.
Which is why critics note concerning Perseverance of the Saints, that OSAS, which is part of PS, gives license to sin at will without fear.
Re-Formed Theology teaches God is the source of Double Predestination. He predestined His select number of those he first created Totally Depraved to save from that condition and imbue them with faith. None of which they can do on their own due to being created TOTALLY Depraved. And that would mean He also predetermined those whom remained Totally Depraved to suffer Hell.

Jesus in fact under those clauses in Re-Formed Theology did not have to die. Because God, who was Jesus, did everything as pertains to saving grace himself. After the death of Jesus. Becaus the Totally Depraved are not capable of holding faith until God inbues them with faith after he's imbued them with His Grace.
This is why some who follow the Re-Formed Theology believe that the scripture references to the wide and narrow road can both be traveled by the Elect. They can do no thing to remove God's grace from them and their future because they did no thing to enter into that grace nor did they choose to hold faith in God because they were created incapable of that as the Totally Depraved of God. And as some believe, remain so even after God works that all out for them.


That's not what the scripture says.

I am so grateful God is merciful. God knows the heart of all people and I hope that the countless people who followed Calvin straight to Hell are at the judgment given mercy because they were led by a highly gifted mouthpiece of His great Adversary.
Mayhaps my Father will even deem to have mercy on John Calvin himself. Once a Roman Catholic who never fully cast off that faith system so as to manifest his own using the delusions of others so as to have the result be his namesake for all time; Calvinism.

God is Love. It is entirely possible . For John knew not his fate when he was led by the spirit of the Adversary of my Father so as to lead countless people into Hell.
And not so surprising, as this world is full of strife, some insist they are correct to believe in Calvin as they follow the compass straight toward that destination.

Why are you so wildly misrepresenting everything?

I haven't been talking about 'Calvinism' at all, except for making one note about the facts of history, which you fully corroborated with another post later.

I've been asking what I think are pertinent questions to the thread and patiently trying to correct your obvious direct contradiction of Romans 5:13.

 

[posthuman]

i asked:

scripture says: He made atonement for all; He bore the sins of many. if this were not so, how is it He says to those who do not believe Him, "you will die in your sins" ?
how do they have sins to die in if He has taken them upon Himself? to all, He has made atonement. to those who accept Him, He has borne their sin. the way you are conflating these two leads to universal salvation, which i think we both certainly agree is contradictory to what the scripture says.

@Whispered replied:

No, Calvinism corrupts scripture and twists it to fit into one man's ideal vision of God. A God that creates all humanity to be Totally Depraved, for all that is defined as in Calvin's doctrine.

you said "no" -- which question were you answering?

did you mean, "no, you don't agree universal salvation is contrary to scripture" ?
because that's the only yes/no question in the post you quoted..

do you believe in universal salvation?
or were you not even attempting to answer any of the dozens of questions i've asked in this thread - just ranting instead on unrelated things?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Salvation is "a deliverance". If you believe that you are eternally delivered by your good works then your quote from Romans 10:9 would hold up as truth.

Why are you misrepresenting Romans 10:9 since it does NOT teach salvation (deliverance) by good works? The entire 10th chapter of Romans presents salvation by grace through faith, and refutes both Limited Atonement, Unconditional Election, and Irresistible Grace.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

If you did not do this, then you are not saved. But if you did do this, then you have no business calling this salvation by good works. That is a contradiction of the Gospel and God's truth. It is clear that you do not really believe God. You prefer to believe men and their false gospel.

 

[notuptome]

Verse 21- "but he that doeth truth cometh to the light" 1 Cor 2:14 - The natural man that is spiritually dead cannot discern spiritual truths and therefore will not doeth truth or cometh to a spiritual light until, Eph 2, God quickens him to a spiritual life. All scripture must harmonize before you can understand the doctrine that Jesus taught.

You poor man. Jesus said He is the Light that has come into the world that lighteth every man. God provides every man with the light sufficient for him to come to Christ. John 16:8-11 is the ministry of the Holy Spirit bringing every man to the point of decision.

You cannot understand anything beyond you are a sinner in need of salvation before you are saved. Unsaved people can only be religious and proclaim every wind of doctrine while never being grounded in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Whispered]

One last little thing that God put on my heart just this afternoon. Re-Formed Theology, Calvinism, makes prayer of none effect.
Why? Because those who are Totally Depraved are incapable of praying due to their condition.
Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.

Linked to Calvin's, Concerning The Predestination Of God

 

[Whispered]

Why are you so wildly misrepresenting everything?

I haven't been talking about 'Calvinism' at all, except for making one note about the facts of history, which you fully corroborated with another post later.

I've been asking what I think are pertinent questions to the thread and patiently trying to correct your obvious direct contradiction of Romans 5:13.

No, it isn't patience that you're demonstrating repeatedly here. Though you have successfully demonstrated the breadth of the OP article and title itself. Thank you.

 

[Whispered]

Why are you misrepresenting Romans 10:9 since it does NOT teach salvation (deliverance) by good works? The entire 10th chapter of Romans presents salvation by grace through faith, and refutes both Limited Atonement, Unconditional Election, and Irresistible Grace.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

If you did not do this, then you are not saved. But if you did do this, then you have no business calling this salvation by good works. That is a contradiction of the Gospel and God's truth. It is clear that you do not really believe God. You prefer to believe men and their false gospel.

The Book of Romans chapter10
1. Brethren, my heart’s [a]desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses writeth that [b]the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith saith thus, [c]Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down 7 or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? [d]The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach: 9 [e]because if thou shalt [f]confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: 10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, [g]Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame. 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: 13 for, [h]Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, [i]How beautiful are the feet of them that bring [j]glad tidings of good things!
16 But they did not all hearken to the [k]glad tidings. For Isaiah saith, [l]Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily,[m]Their sound went out into all the earth,
And their words unto the ends of [n]the world.19 But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses saith,[o]I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation,With a nation void of understanding will I anger you. 20 And Isaiah is very bold, and saith,[p]I was found of them that sought me not;I became manifest unto them that asked not of me.21 But as to Israel he saith, [q]All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

 

[Whispered]

Calvinism and Arminianism:Myths & Realities

Arminian Charge: Calvinism is a Depraved Theology.

Myth or Reality: The allegation is basically that Calvinism is dark and twisted.

Calvinist: It’s interesting to note that the choice of words adds to the effect of this NOT being the subject. That child IS a sinner! Full stop.

Arminian: And who predestined the child to be born as a sinner and rendered it certain? I mean, don’t stop there. Follow through on the logic, brother.

Calvinist: There is NONE righteous, NO NOT ONE. That’s all the logic needed.

Arminian: And who predestined that? So what you’re really saying is that the child is guilty of God’s immutable decree of predestination?


Calvinism should trouble the conscience, which otherwise is dehumanizing, and treats people as mere objects.

Calvinist, James White, states: “Man appears in the golden chain of redemption solely as the object of gracious redemption.” (Debating Calvinism, p.151, emphasis mine)

While some are the fortunate “object” of Unconditional Election, others are the unfortunate “object” of Unconditional Reprobation, immutably decreed from eternity-past.

John Calvin adds: “All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.” (Institutes of Christian Religion: Book 3, Chapter 21, Section 5, emphasis mine)

John Calvin writes: “Hence Augustine, having treated of the elect, and taught that their salvation reposes in the faithful custody of God so that none perishes, continues: The rest of mortal men who are not of this number, but rather taken out of the common mass and made vessels of wrath, are born for the use of the elect.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.107, emphasis mine)

John Calvin states: “They deny that it is ever said in distinct terms, God decreed that Adam should perish by his revolt. As if the same God, who is declared in Scripture to do whatsoever he pleases, could have made the noblest of his creatures without any special purpose. They say that, in accordance with free-will, he was to be the architect of his own fortune, that God had decreed nothing but to treat him according to his desert. If this frigid fiction is received, where will be the omnipotence of God, by which, according to his secret counsel on which every thing depends, he rules over all? But whether they will allow it or not, predestination is manifest in Adam’s posterity. It was not owing to nature that they all lost salvation by the fault of one parent. Why should they refuse to admit with regard to one man that which against their will they admit with regard to the whole human race? Why should they in caviling lose their labour? Scripture proclaims that all were, in the person of one, made liable to eternal death. As this cannot be ascribed to nature, it is plain that it is owing to the wonderful counsel of God. It is very absurd in these worthy defenders of the justice of God to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. I again ask how it is that the fall of Adam involves so many nations with their infant children in eternal death without remedy unless that it so seemed meet to God? Here the most loquacious tongues must be dumb. The decree, I admit, is, dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknew what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he had so ordained by his decree.” (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Section 7, emphasis mine)

Calvinist, Vincent Cheung, writes: “One who thinks that God’s glory is not worth the death and suffering of billions of people has too high an opinion of himself and humanity.” (The Problem of Evil, p.10, emphasis mine)

One Calvinist explains: “You have quoted Adrian Rogers as saying: ‘If you go to hell, a broken-hearted God will watch you drop into hell.’ Of course, the bible doesn’t teach this sappy nonsense at all. God hates the wicked, not just their sin but them specifically. (Psa 5:5; 11:5)” (“Giant Sale! All merchandise half price”, emphasis mine)

The problem with Calvinism is that its adherents can eventually grow to become dark and twisted, proportional to the theology itself, and Dave Hunt helps to explain why:

Dave Hunt writes: “Theology inevitably affects behavior.” (Debating Calvinism, p.227)

Dave Hunt adds: “Life reflects doctrine (2 Timothy 3:10).” (Debating Calvinism, p.248)

A. Brent Cobb writes: “We become more and more like our concept of God. If I see him as harsh, that’s the way I’ll become, but if I see God as compassionate, that’s the kind of person I’ll become.” (The Great Scandal, emphasis mine)

 

[posthuman]

you have successfully demonstrated the breadth of the OP article and title itself.

the OP article / title is '3 tactics Calvinists use'
these are the 3 accused 'tactics' in post #1:

1. name calling
2. quoting scripture
3. appeals to tradition

i confess that yes, i have been quoting scripture.

???

i haven't been calling anyone names, and i haven't been appealing to 'tradition' or any authority other than scripture itself and the God who authored it.

so..

???

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Why are you misrepresenting Romans 10:9 since it does NOT teach salvation (deliverance) by good works? The entire 10th chapter of Romans presents salvation by grace through faith, and refutes both Limited Atonement, Unconditional Election, and Irresistible Grace.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

If you did not do this, then you are not saved. But if you did do this, then you have no business calling this salvation by good works. That is a contradiction of the Gospel and God's truth. It is clear that you do not really believe God. You prefer to believe men and their false gospel.

Confessing and believing is not the cause of eternal salvation, but a product of of already having been born of the Spirit. 1 Cor 2:14 - the natural man who cannot discern things of the Spirit will not confess to things of the Spirit. The natural man's heart has not been changed in the new birth so that he can believe the things of the Spirit.

One last little thing that God put on my heart just this afternoon. Re-Formed Theology, Calvinism, makes prayer of none effect.
Why? Because those who are Totally Depraved are incapable of praying due to their condition.
Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.

Linked to Calvin's, Concerning The Predestination Of God

According to 1 Cor 2:14, you will not see the natural man pray a spiritual prayer when he cannot discern the things of the Spirit. Not until after he has been born of the Spirit in the new birth will he pray a spiritual prayer.

Calvinism and Arminianism:Myths & Realities

Arminian Charge: Calvinism is a Depraved Theology.

Myth or Reality: The allegation is basically that Calvinism is dark and twisted.

Calvinist: It’s interesting to note that the choice of words adds to the effect of this NOT being the subject. That child IS a sinner! Full stop.

Arminian: And who predestined the child to be born as a sinner and rendered it certain? I mean, don’t stop there. Follow through on the logic, brother.

Calvinist: There is NONE righteous, NO NOT ONE. That’s all the logic needed.

Arminian: And who predestined that? So what you’re really saying is that the child is guilty of God’s immutable decree of predestination?


Calvinism should trouble the conscience, which otherwise is dehumanizing, and treats people as mere objects.

Calvinist, James White, states: “Man appears in the golden chain of redemption solely as the object of gracious redemption.” (Debating Calvinism, p.151, emphasis mine)

While some are the fortunate “object” of Unconditional Election, others are the unfortunate “object” of Unconditional Reprobation, immutably decreed from eternity-past.

John Calvin adds: “All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.” (Institutes of Christian Religion: Book 3, Chapter 21, Section 5, emphasis mine)

John Calvin writes: “Hence Augustine, having treated of the elect, and taught that their salvation reposes in the faithful custody of God so that none perishes, continues: The rest of mortal men who are not of this number, but rather taken out of the common mass and made vessels of wrath, are born for the use of the elect.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.107, emphasis mine)

John Calvin states: “They deny that it is ever said in distinct terms, God decreed that Adam should perish by his revolt. As if the same God, who is declared in Scripture to do whatsoever he pleases, could have made the noblest of his creatures without any special purpose. They say that, in accordance with free-will, he was to be the architect of his own fortune, that God had decreed nothing but to treat him according to his desert. If this frigid fiction is received, where will be the omnipotence of God, by which, according to his secret counsel on which every thing depends, he rules over all? But whether they will allow it or not, predestination is manifest in Adam’s posterity. It was not owing to nature that they all lost salvation by the fault of one parent. Why should they refuse to admit with regard to one man that which against their will they admit with regard to the whole human race? Why should they in caviling lose their labour? Scripture proclaims that all were, in the person of one, made liable to eternal death. As this cannot be ascribed to nature, it is plain that it is owing to the wonderful counsel of God. It is very absurd in these worthy defenders of the justice of God to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. I again ask how it is that the fall of Adam involves so many nations with their infant children in eternal death without remedy unless that it so seemed meet to God? Here the most loquacious tongues must be dumb. The decree, I admit, is, dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknew what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he had so ordained by his decree.” (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Section 7, emphasis mine)

Calvinist, Vincent Cheung, writes: “One who thinks that God’s glory is not worth the death and suffering of billions of people has too high an opinion of himself and humanity.” (The Problem of Evil, p.10, emphasis mine)

One Calvinist explains: “You have quoted Adrian Rogers as saying: ‘If you go to hell, a broken-hearted God will watch you drop into hell.’ Of course, the bible doesn’t teach this sappy nonsense at all. God hates the wicked, not just their sin but them specifically. (Psa 5:5; 11:5)” (“Giant Sale! All merchandise half price”, emphasis mine)

The problem with Calvinism is that its adherents can eventually grow to become dark and twisted, proportional to the theology itself, and Dave Hunt helps to explain why:

Dave Hunt writes: “Theology inevitably affects behavior.” (Debating Calvinism, p.227)

Dave Hunt adds: “Life reflects doctrine (2 Timothy 3:10).” (Debating Calvinism, p.248)

A. Brent Cobb writes: “We become more and more like our concept of God. If I see him as harsh, that’s the way I’ll become, but if I see God as compassionate, that’s the kind of person I’ll become.” (The Great Scandal, emphasis mine)

God did not predestine them not to be righteousness and not seek him. God gave them freedom to choose for themselves and that is what they choose. If you want to blame God for anything, blame him for giving them freedom to choose for themselves.

 

[Whispered]

Isaiah 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL."

1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe."

1 John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."

Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN."

1 Timothy 2:4: "Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth."

1 Peter 1
2 Thessalonians 2:13: "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth."

Luke 7:50: "... Thy faith hath saved thee ..."

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Romans 6:20-23 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our LORD.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You poor man. Jesus said He is the Light that has come into the world that lighteth every man. God provides every man with the light sufficient for him to come to Christ. John 16:8-11 is the ministry of the Holy Spirit bringing every man to the point of decision.

You cannot understand anything beyond you are a sinner in need of salvation before you are saved. Unsaved people can only be religious and proclaim every wind of doctrine while never being grounded in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Eph 2, the natural man is yet dead (spiritually) until he is quickened to a spiritual life. A spiritually dead man cannot come to Christ.

 

[posthuman]

Isaiah 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL."

1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe."

1 John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."

Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN."

1 Timothy 2:4: "Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth."

1 Peter 1
2 Thessalonians 2:13: "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth."

Luke 7:50: "... Thy faith hath saved thee ..."

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Romans 6:20-23 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our LORD.

do you believe in universal salvation?

 

[posthuman]

One last little thing that God put on my heart just this afternoon. Re-Formed Theology, Calvinism, makes prayer of none effect.
Why? Because those who are Totally Depraved are incapable of praying due to their condition.

i don't see how that "makes prayer of none effect" - you say it as though only the wicked pray?
but i do see how the scripture supports what is at the core of it:

If I had cherished iniquity in my heart, the Lord would not have listened.
(Psalm 66:18)​

Surely God does not listen to empty pleas, and the Almighty does not take note of it.
(Job 35:13)

Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him.
(John 9:31)​

​

The LORD is far from the wicked, but He hears the prayer of the righteous.
(Proverbs 15:29) ​

​

Whoever turns his ear away from hearing the law, even his prayer is detestable.​

(Proverbs 28:29) ​

​

You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures.
(James 4:3) ​

​

But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.
(Isaiah 59:2) ​

​

But they refused to pay attention and turned a stubborn shoulder and stopped their ears from hearing. ​

They made their hearts like flint so that they could not hear the law and the words which the LORD of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former prophets; therefore great wrath came from the LORD of hosts, and just as He called and they would not listen, so they called and I would not listen, says the LORD of hosts
(Zechariah 7:11-13) ​

​

Therefore thus says the LORD, "Behold I am bringing disaster on them which they will not be able to escape; though they will cry to Me, yet I will not listen to them."
(Jeremiah 11:11)​

​

When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; even though you multiply your prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood.
(Isaiah 1:15) ​

​

But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord
(James 1:6-7) ​

​

Whoever closes his ear to the cry of the poor will himself call out and not be answered.
(Proverbs 21:13) ​

​

The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the Lord, but gracious words are pure.
(Proverbs 15:26) ​

​

But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
(Matthew 6:15) ​

etc
etc
etc

this is all over the Bible.
it presents a problem if you do not believe it is God who quickens the dead, but the dead who raise themselves out of their own sin. but if you believe that God is who justifies, and who gives grace as a gift, it's not hard to see.

 

[posthuman]

Why? Because those who are Totally Depraved are incapable of praying due to their condition.

what is the alternative you are presenting?

i know what the reformed doctrine says; that God by His Spirit works in a person to redeem them, turning their hearts toward Him, healing their depravity, so that they look to Him and call on Him. this kinda makes your accusation a misrepresentation & non-issue, because it is God who sanctifies and makes a person able to pray a righteous prayer, bringing the dead to life in Himself.

i take it you detest that idea -- so what is the alternative that you believe is the truth of this thing?

 

[posthuman]

1. Name Calling
2. Scripture Quotations
3. Appeals to Tradition and Authority

1: name calling

The problem with Calvinism is that its adherents can eventually grow to become dark and twisted, proportional to the theology itself, and Dave Hunt helps to explain why:

Dave Hunt writes: “Theology inevitably affects behavior.” (Debating Calvinism, p.227)

Dave Hunt adds: “Life reflects doctrine (2 Timothy 3:10).” (Debating Calvinism, p.248)

2: scripture quotations

The problem with Calvinism is that its adherents can eventually grow to become dark and twisted, proportional to the theology itself, and Dave Hunt helps to explain why:

Dave Hunt writes: “Theology inevitably affects behavior.” (Debating Calvinism, p.227)

Dave Hunt adds: “Life reflects doctrine (2 Timothy 3:10).” (Debating Calvinism, p.248)

3: appeal to human authority

The problem with Calvinism is that its adherents can eventually grow to become dark and twisted, proportional to the theology itself, and Dave Hunt helps to explain why:

Dave Hunt writes: “Theology inevitably affects behavior.” (Debating Calvinism, p.227)

Dave Hunt adds: “Life reflects doctrine (2 Timothy 3:10).” (Debating Calvinism, p.248)

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