3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists

[Whispered]

Nobody PM'd me for support. If you bothered to look, I am a long time member, 9 years coming up in Jan. I have over 10,000 posts, so no, not a first impression. I've been around a long time! You'd have to go back to 2011 to find an introduction. Pretty much everyone knows who I am, although I have been too busy lately to do much more than pop in and out.

You are the newbie! You've been here less than 2 months, and think you know your way around?

Like, just because you started a thread, it does NOT make it yours. This is an open forum, once you post the OP, it belongs to every member, not just you! Although you keep copy and pasting the same thing over and over to prove your point, which is unwarranted.

I read this thread, every post from the OP to the end. But your long, copied & pasted from?? They just didn't stop. No one reads copy and pastes that go on forever, not even you to delete unnecessary things in the original source.

And speaking of sources, you need to put a link, and probably an author. And stop confirming your rigid biases, by googling your warped theology. Try reading both sides of an issue, from people who believe in what they are talking about. Do some research. Draw your own conclusions. Even if you don't change your viewpoint, you will understand the issue much better than trying to google quick evidence from other people who do not hold to the other viewpoint.

Oh, and welcome to CC!

I did see your profile and the member years you've been aboard. My observation about PMing and first impression is due to my choosing not to respond to a certain confrontational personality that appears to wish to make a fight of opinion. And while offering questions and charges oft repeated with disdain for answers often provided.

What I meant when speaking of your first impression was in your first post to me. And after this thread had garnered more than a dozen pages of dialog. Your tone was similar in scope to those one's that are purposed to offend and even laugh at the subject matter without posting a cogent conciliatory or civil response.

This is why I thought you had been invited to continue where they were cut off due to my choosing not to encourage their behaviors further.
If I am mistaken, that you were invited on their behalf, I sincerely apologize and ask your forgiveness of my presumption.

I wil say that what you've posted above: "And speaking of sources, you need to put a link, and probably an author. And stop confirming your rigid biases, by googling your warped theology."

Is not only a false charge to be sure, as I have never omitted a source link in this thread nor in any thread wherein I have elected to participate. Nor have I edited out what was contained in the intellectual properties of those resources I shared, not once. I have, for brevity, excerpted parts of articles from those resources linked. That is perfectly in keeping with forum etiquette.

I will say your remarks as pertains to the, "warped theology" charge is uncalled for and beneath someone who imagines their spirituality is superior to those they contend with. If you are Calvinist, which is the topic under discussion here, or otherwise a member of a reformed congregation, I believe we can agree to disagree without being rude to one another and or resorting to personal attacks as I have not done anything that would warrant such language. Someone who says they have a Master's in Divinity should consider their words more carefully so as not to appear coarse in their remarks. If you are secure in your position you can be civil toward those who do not share your perceptions. Vulgarity does not make your position more secure nor does it insure it to be correct.

Upon reflection of your post I would hope you can agree . If not, and you feel you will only proceed as you have thus far, we can agree to not discuss these matters together further. I do not deserve rude behavior as I do not behave as such. And I find it offensive and a violation in the offender who should if in Christ have the peace of Christ within.

God Bless.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You are rejecting the will of God. You might want to consider into what you have placed so much zeal. Are you a bible believer or a Calvinist? If you actually understood Calvinism you would not take the positions you take in opposition to the bible.

It is the mercy of God which rubs you the wrong way. You cannot understand how God can love all men and have a plan to redeem them that is so broad and rich in grace that those who perish do so according to their will and not the will of God. You cannot perceive that God can be sovereign and allow men to choose. Gods sovereignty is not threatened by mans will. Man was created in the image of God and man has a will that must be subjected to Gods will. God allowed Adam to sin and God will allow you to choose life over death.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Again, you cannot deal with the entirety of Scripture by simply telling me what you wish was true.

It is plain that God has an elect, and the elect's sins have been paid for on the Cross. It is also plain that he has elected to save some and to pass over others.

I am a bible believer, and that is why I cannot ignore the Scriptures that refer to election and reprobation. You and many others are simply discounting them because it doesn't fit within your traditions.

I believe in God's mercy. Mercy is something that he freely gives to those he chooses to give it to. Mercy cannot be demanded. In fact, what I see from you is that all are entitled to God's mercy.

Read 1 Cor 1:26ff, Romans 9, Ephesians 1, John 6, 10 and reconcile your belief system with these chapters. You cannot.

You simply have been taught a theology that blinds you to the reality that God elects, and that he actually chooses....his election cannot be twisted around to mean that man chooses himself. That is what free-willers try to do. They are simply refuting what Scripture says.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

So you have never submitted your will to the will of God? You have never been under conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment?

I never said I hate the idea of Gods sovereignty. Those are your words. I never said I had any part in my salvation this again is your supposition. What rubs you sore is that God calls all men to be saved and not just an elect few. You make election the controlling means by which men become saved. God saves according to His mercy not a lottery.

You cannot grow into a mature Christian following the path that you have chosen.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I have submitted myself to God. I realize that I was justified by faith, and that Jesus' righteousness was given to me as a free gift.

And, yes, the only reason I was saved is because God chose me and the rest of his elect from the foundation of the earth. And, the reason is by grace and not personal merit.

You commented "God saves according to His mercy not a lottery". I never said God chooses according to a lottery. That is a free-willer claim I have encountered..that Reformed people believe God chose by "eenie meenie minie mo".. I never said that.

In fact, according to 1 Cor 1:26ff, he chooses lowly things so that his glory can be shown more clearly in them. He is like the star athlete who chooses dumb, fat, clumsy kids for his team, so he can show his own glory more powerfully through them.

And, my definition of a mature Christian is one who faces what the Bible says with honesty, and seeks God's glory and not his own. Soli Deo Gloria would be a phrase he understands and believes.

Soli - Only
Deo - God
Gloria - Glory

Only God's Glory

Not.....God's glory 99% my glory 1%

This is free-willer theology

 

[Whispered]

2 Corinthians 3:18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the LORD's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the LORD, who is the Spirit.

 

[Whispered]

Free-Willer. What a phrase. Is the antonymn then pertaining to someone who lives under duress being they had no choice in the matter of serving the ideal God in the mind of Calvin, being Calvinism is the subject of this thread?

We've read one who says they are not a Calvinist argue against free will. But what do Calvinists say?
Here's one example from Calvinistcorner.com

Excerpt: " What is free will? It is the ability for a person to determine some or all of his actions. Some consider free will to be its own cause. Some consider free will to be independent of any other causation, predestination, or predetermination by any other person, event, or stimulus.

Of course, this does not make sense since a person is free to do as he wants but what he wants can only be consistent with his own nature.

I propose that free will involves four aspects: Conception, Desire, Choice, and Accomplishment. Conception leads to desire which leads to choice which leads to accomplishing that choice. ...."
Source: Free Will - calvinistcorner.com

 

[Angela53510]

How do you interpret the scripture; I thank you Father, that you have hidden these mysteries from the wise and prudent and delivered them unto babes? As I recall, Paul said that he counted all that he had been taught, at the feet of Gamaliel, as dung, that he may win Christ. After his conversion on the road to Damascus he did not confer with the other Apostles, but was taught by the Holy Spirit.

Well, you have forgotten Paul before he was saved! He was a student of the Bible. He spent his life studying under various teachers and rabbis. And yes, He studied under Gamaliel, one of the top rabbis of his day.

There are some basic easy, timeless principles for studying the Bible. Things like context. Within the chapter, book, testament, and in light of Jesus. Cultural context is also important. Paul knew his culture, we do not. We need to understand how things were, what was important, what was cultural and what is universal.

Paul studied the OT under the best teachers of his time. Plus, Hebrew boys memorized the whole Torah, the first 5 books of the Bible. It wouldn't surprise me if Paul memorized much of the OT. Certainly Jesus and his disciples memorized and knew huge chunks of the OT, from Synagogue school.

So, Paul did spend all that time in the desert, with no clue about the Bible, how to study? Oh, and he was well trained at Greek rhetoric, which helped him in his preaching and writing. He didn't walk into the desert a tabula Rosa, (blank slate!) and the Holy Spirit just impressed things on his brain, like a long download of information. Paul was picked because he spoke Greek, Hebrew and Latin, which he had also studied. He was a highly educated man, intelligent, and God used his abilities to teach him further to be the leader of the church, and contribute the most books to the Bible.

It is not either/or. God uses people who are trained and educated. The Holy Spirit is vital for learning spiritual things. Whether he teaches you alone, or in Bible College or seminary. But, accessing wise mature Christians, with a deep understanding of Scripture, and a close walk with God, you can learn so much more.

I spent 25 years studying the Bible, led by the Spirit, but a God made me hunger to know more. I learned more in my first year, than in the previous 25 years. It is still Holy Spirit led, but it is accelerated learning, and teaches you how to learn. I have been so blessed that God has led me on this journey.

But this may not be your journey. But don't take Paul's life out context, and think God is going to teach you like he did Paul. Paul was picked for God's special task, and neither of us have what Paul had, or his calling and abilities!

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Tim 3:16-17

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Scripture says none seek Him. Romans 3:11

Of course God saw before hand. God inhabits eternity. To state that because God saw that God orchestrates is a false conclusion. Gods sovereign will allows for a permissive will without conflict that is true sovereignty .

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You made a pretty bold statement, can you back it up with scripture?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You obviously have no idea. You are equating salvation to good works. We are saved out of this world and await redemption in the world to come as our Savior promised.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Whether you admit it or not you theory is eternal salvation by your works indicated by your comments.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Scripture says none seek Him. Romans 3:11

Of course God saw before hand. God inhabits eternity. To state that because God saw that God orchestrates is a false conclusion. Gods sovereign will allows for a permissive will without conflict that is true sovereignty .

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The problem is, God actually chooses.

This can't be twisted around to say that man chooses, and God chooses based on man's choosing. Because what is really being said is that God doesn't choose.

This has been the typical free-willer ploy.

Regarding foreknowledge, it is individuals that God foreknows. This is indicated by the "who" in the golden chain of redemption.

Romans 8:28-30 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (ESV)

And, foreknowledge means fore-love. The word "knowledge" in Scripture infers intimate relationship knowledge. God knew this person in an intimate way before he was saved. We see an example of this in Jeremiah 1:5.

We see an inference in this when God says this:

Romans 9:13 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (ESV)

To foreknow means to fore-love, before the person was even born.

Additionally, we see in 1 Cor 1:26ff that God chooses based on the lack of admirable qualities, to make his glory shown. So, he does choose individuals.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Well, you have forgotten Paul before he was saved! He was a student of the Bible. He spent his life studying under various teachers and rabbis. And yes, He studied under Gamaliel, one of the top rabbis of his day.

There are some basic easy, timeless principles for studying the Bible. Things like context. Within the chapter, book, testament, and in light of Jesus. Cultural context is also important. Paul knew his culture, we do not. We need to understand how things were, what was important, what was cultural and what is universal.

Paul studied the OT under the best teachers of his time. Plus, Hebrew boys memorized the whole Torah, the first 5 books of the Bible. It wouldn't surprise me if Paul memorized much of the OT. Certainly Jesus and his disciples memorized and knew huge chunks of the OT, from Synagogue school.

So, Paul did spend all that time in the desert, with no clue about the Bible, how to study? Oh, and he was well trained at Greek rhetoric, which helped him in his preaching and writing. He didn't walk into the desert a tabula Rosa, (blank slate!) and the Holy Spirit just impressed things on his brain, like a long download of information. Paul was picked because he spoke Greek, Hebrew and Latin, which he had also studied. He was a highly educated man, intelligent, and God used his abilities to teach him further to be the leader of the church, and contribute the most books to the Bible.

It is not either/or. God uses people who are trained and educated. The Holy Spirit is vital for learning spiritual things. Whether he teaches you alone, or in Bible College or seminary. But, accessing wise mature Christians, with a deep understanding of Scripture, and a close walk with God, you can learn so much more.

I spent 25 years studying the Bible, led by the Spirit, but a God made me hunger to know more. I learned more in my first year, than in the previous 25 years. It is still Holy Spirit led, but it is accelerated learning, and teaches you how to learn. I have been so blessed that God has led me on this journey.

But this may not be your journey. But don't take Paul's life out context, and think God is going to teach you like he did Paul. Paul was picked for God's special task, and neither of us have what Paul had, or his calling and abilities!

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Tim 3:16-17

Paul said that he accounted all of his many years of studying "but as dung, in order to win Christ.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Paul said that he accounted all of his many years of studying "but as dung, in order to win Christ.

There's nothing wrong with a good seminary education if a person has it available to them.

If I was 18 again, and had the cash, I'd definitely go to a solid conservative seminary like Westminster or Reformed Theological Seminary. But I'm not so I study on my own.

What we find is that Charles Finney in the early 1800's polluted folks' minds against seminary education. The hypocrite became a head of Oberlin College later on, though.

But, his influence led to the anti-intellectualism that is influencing various groups of professing Christians in the USA. He was more into emotionalism than serious academic pursuit of Christian knowledge. I would call him a proto-Pentecostal in some ways. i don't know if Pentecostal is the right word, as there are some free-will Baptist churches that are just as emotional and vapid in my area.

By the way I have no issue with emotion in worship, if the emotion is brought about by understanding deep spiritual truths as expounded by good teachers. Spiritual truth should lead to fervent worship. But not a bunch of disorganized chaos.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

And He told Timothy to study, and the Berean Jews are called more noble because they searched the scriptures to see if what they heard was true, and God says His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

It's not 'bad' to seek out and procure wisdom, knowledge and understanding. It's commendable.

You misunderstand me if you think I am saying to not study. We are to study to show ourselves approved, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

There's nothing wrong with a good seminary education if a person has it available to them.

If I was 18 again, and had the cash, I'd definitely go to a solid conservative seminary like Westminster or Reformed Theological Seminary. But I'm not so I study on my own.

What we find is that Charles Finney in the early 1800's polluted folks' minds against seminary education. The hypocrite became a head of Oberlin College later on, though.

But, his influence led to the anti-intellectualism that is influencing various groups of professing Christians in the USA. He was more into emotionalism than serious academic pursuit of Christian knowledge. I would call him a proto-Pentecostal in some ways. i don't know if Pentecostal is the right word, as there are some free-will Baptist churches that are just as emotional and vapid in my area.

Scripture proves scripture and should be our only source of obtaining the truth by the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Scripture proves scripture and should be our only source of obtaining the truth by the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

No, the Holy Spirit uses men of God to teach. This is one of the gifts and offices of the Church.

It is a proud man that won't consider the teachings of solid brothers from the past. In fact, I would say most cults are started by individuals who think "it's just me and my Bible".

It's also important to know church history so we don't replicate errors of the past.

 

[posthuman]

You misunderstand me if you think I am saying to not study. We are to study to show ourselves approved, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of God.

Scripture proves scripture and should be our only source of obtaining the truth by the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

i've never been to seminary so i'm not going to comment on what i don't know about, but IMO seminaries ought to be houses devoted to studying scripture and providing every resource, mentorship, guidance and disciplined instruction to those who attend them. if the Spirit can guide you in your room by yourself, He can certainly guide you in a school where you are devoted to finding out about Him in what's written.

i'm sorry; i don't like the idea of pooh-poohing education just because it's possible to miraculously receive it without working at it. so i recoil at the idea, perhaps prematurely. no offense intended; i am sure as with everything else there are outstanding and also poor examples of such schools - but i also believe, that even in a poorly managed school, a dedicated & honest student can make valuable use of being in it.

 

[notuptome]

Again, you cannot deal with the entirety of Scripture by simply telling me what you wish was true.

It is plain that God has an elect, and the elect's sins have been paid for on the Cross. It is also plain that he has elected to save some and to pass over others.

I am a bible believer, and that is why I cannot ignore the Scriptures that refer to election and reprobation. You and many others are simply discounting them because it doesn't fit within your traditions.

I believe in God's mercy. Mercy is something that he freely gives to those he chooses to give it to. Mercy cannot be demanded. In fact, what I see from you is that all are entitled to God's mercy.

Read 1 Cor 1:26ff, Romans 9, Ephesians 1, John 6, 10 and reconcile your belief system with these chapters. You cannot.

You simply have been taught a theology that blinds you to the reality that God elects, and that he actually chooses....his election cannot be twisted around to mean that man chooses himself. That is what free-willers try to do. They are simply refuting what Scripture says.

It is obvious that you ae so deeply indoctrinated into Calvinism that you are no longer able to see the truth according to the scriptures.. The best you can offer is a continuous attack on others because your position is weak.

How fortunate that God choose you and condemned your neighbor. I hope you are truly saved but the weeds and thorns of Calvinism are chocking your Spiritual growth. You are becoming hard hearted and judgmental toward those you are supposed to love.

Souls in danger look to Jesus not to John Calvin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

The problem is, God actually chooses.

This can't be twisted around to say that man chooses, and God chooses based on man's choosing. Because what is really being said is that God doesn't choose.

This has been the typical free-willer ploy.

Regarding foreknowledge, it is individuals that God foreknows. This is indicated by the "who" in the golden chain of redemption.

Romans 8:28-30 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (ESV)

And, foreknowledge means fore-love. The word "knowledge" in Scripture infers intimate relationship knowledge. God knew this person in an intimate way before he was saved. We see an example of this in Jeremiah 1:5.

We see an inference in this when God says this:

Romans 9:13 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (ESV)

To foreknow means to fore-love, before the person was even born.

Additionally, we see in 1 Cor 1:26ff that God chooses based on the lack of admirable qualities, to make his glory shown. So, he does choose individuals.

Without the ability and I say responsibility to choose there is no glory for God.

God loves even those who hate Him. God will forgive even those who hate Him if they will forsake their sin can cleave to Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No, the Holy Spirit uses men of God to teach. This is one of the gifts and offices of the Church.

It is a proud man that won't consider the teachings of solid brothers from the past. In fact, I would say most cults are started by individuals who think "it's just me and my Bible".

It's also important to know church history so we don't replicate errors of the past.

I know that I don't measure up to Paul, in the least, but he counted all of his schooling in the old law as dung to win Christ and did not go to the other Apostles to confer with them but kept to himself and was instructed by the revelation of the Holy Spirit. I don't think that he represented a cult.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Without the ability and I say responsibility to choose there is no glory for God.

God loves even those who hate Him. God will forgive even those who hate Him if they will forsake their sin can cleave to Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

We are, but natural men until God gives us a new heart in regeneration and as natural men that cannot discern the things of the Spirit we would never forsake a spiritual sin that we cannot discern that we have and would never cleave to a spiritual God. (1 Cor 2:14).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

i've never been to seminary so i'm not going to comment on what i don't know about, but IMO seminaries ought to be houses devoted to studying scripture and providing every resource, mentorship, guidance and disciplined instruction to those who attend them. if the Spirit can guide you in your room by yourself, He can certainly guide you in a school where you are devoted to finding out about Him in what's written.

i'm sorry; i don't like the idea of pooh-poohing education just because it's possible to miraculously receive it without working at it. so i recoil at the idea, perhaps prematurely. no offense intended; i am sure as with everything else there are outstanding and also poor examples of such schools - but i also believe, that even in a poorly managed school, a dedicated & honest student can make valuable use of being in it.

You probably have heard the expression "It is much harder to un-teach a false doctrine, than it is to teach the true doctrine" I believe that to be true, thus attending schools that teach a false doctrine due to men's faulty misinterpretations of the scriptures is not effectual, but damaging. Denying your own abilities and yielding to the revelation of the Holy Spirit is needful.