A QUESTION ON ETERNAL HELL

[Afrikan]

It's unfortunate that in this day and age, any conversation on the Afterlife for us Christians always hinges on doctrine; What we miss in all this discussion is that, ALL of Scripture is true - not always LITERAL but TRUE.

Do we remember these words:

# (2 Timothy 3 : 16) " ..... All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, ..... " ?


On this question of Heaven & Hell, any Christian who has read the words of Jesus Christ in the Gospels regarding Sin and its consequences gets a definitive answer:-


# (Matt. 5 : 22) " .... But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell ..... "
# (Matt. 5 : 29) " ..... If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell ..... "
# (Matt. 5 : 30) " ..... And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell ..... "
# (Matt. 10 : 28) " ..... Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell ..... "



HELL EXISTS. I know for myself as a Human Being, the concept of Hell is a terrifying one; To imagine that in this vast universe HE created, there exists a place where many of our fellow brothers and sisters on this planet may end up (and me too if i'm not careful) - a place of endless constant physical and spiritual suffering for all who are under HIS wrath.

Anytime i think of the all the years that i lived in sin, i shudder to imagine what my final destination would have been if HE had chosen to abandon me then. All of us on Earth are only alive today, because of HIS Tender Mercies and the Grace HE has CHOSEN to grant us.

If you choose to doubt that Hell exists, read through the Old Testament (or Google it ) and find examples of some people who instantly fell under GOD's wrath - Achan, Korah, Dathan, Abiram (Numbers 16); All these, together with the Israelites who rebelled against GOD's will in the wilderness afterwards, ended up in Hell immediately.


It's not just an issue of doctrine, consider what the book of Hebrews says about GOD:-

#(Hebrews 12 : 28 - 29) " ..... Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our “God is a consuming fire ” ....


Official statistics tell us that 150,000 people die each day all over the world, that means at least 55 million people die each year - how many of those do you think have accepted Christ and worship HIM in Spirit and Truth ? Do we think they got into Heaven ?

As a Christian, what do you think happens to all the Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists e.t.c who do not worship the one True
GOD when they die ?

If you have the time please Google: Mary Kathryn Baxter; Her visions are a revelation of the existence of Hell that is a real place of eternal torment. And if even this is not evidence enough, Take It To The Lord In Prayer.

HELL is sobering concept even for us Christians because it shows the Depth of GOD's Love for us that HE would CHOOSE us out of the BILLIONS around us to live in fellowship with HIM, not by works but by GRACE; Consider how blessed we are that HE has saved us from the fate of Judas Iscariot or the Millions who died in Noah's Flood or the Billions who will die in the Age of Tribulation to come.

I'm sorry in advance for anyone i've offended by this message, it's given in Love.

 

[Bingo]

"And, is not wrath self-inflicted. Ponder this carefully."

 

[Afrikan]

Hi Dibby,

I know it seems like an unfathomable pain, to think of those we love being lost forever.

But I think one important perspective we have to remember is that God Himself will be going through this very pain in a way we could never understand, seeing as a large portion of His creation (fallen angels and humans) whom He loved as His own children will be choosing to spend all of eternity away from Him, forever.

The Bible is clear that God wants no one to perish (2 Peter 3:9) and wishes that all would come to repentance, but sadly, many will opt not to.

In the parable of the poor Lazarus and the rich man (beginning in Luke 16:19), the rich man is suffering in hell, and when he looks up, he sees Lazarus in heaven, standing next to Abraham, and begs him to send Lazarus back from the dead to witness to his 5 brothers who are still on earth, saying that he does not want them to wind up in this terrible place.

I know that some interpret this as just a story, but since Jesus cannot lie and wouldn't just make things up, I've always seen this as a glimpse of what the afterlife will be like. The rich man knows he will be separated from his loved ones but yet claims he doesn't want them to end up in hell, even if they would theoretically be in the same place as him. So what must it be like for those on the other side -- the ones in heaven who have to watch their loved ones cast into hell?

I love that the Bible also gives us glimpses of God's heart, and no matter how stubborn, hateful, or rebellious human beings are, He wants nothing more than to pull them close and love them (as Jesus said about wanting to gather those who were rejecting him like a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, Matthew 23:37.) But in order for Him to do this, the person must be willing.

Another look into God's heart that I find intriguing was when God had sent a plague to punish Israel for their rebellion, but when He sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem, He finally told the angel, "Enough! Withdraw your hand!" (1 Chronicles 21). It's as if God Himself is saying, "Stop! I can't stand to watch this suffering anymore, so I am choosing stop it, even though it was the disobedience of the people that brought it on."

What I'm trying to get at is that whatever pain or loss we might feel from being separated from our lost loved ones, God will feel it infinitely more because everyone and everything that will be cast into hell is a being that He personally created and knew in a close, intimate way that no one could understand.

I imagine it to be something like a person who has a spouse or child who is addicted to drugs and has to face the fact that they have lost that person to their own choices and addictions forever, and knows that the only way they can keep the rest of the family safe is to cut themselves off from the destructive person.

As others have pointed out, the Bible says that a time will come where God will wipe away every tear and there will be no pain or sadness.

I heard a pastor preach a sermon once in which he stated that he believes God will eventually close the door to hell, seal it off from the rest of His creation, and purposely choose to forget (in a similar way that He chooses to forget our sins) those who are lost -- forever. This gave me a perspective on hell I've never had before -- I can't bear the thought of God choosing to forget about me forever.

I don't know if this is exactly how it will work (seeing as I don't think there are any verses directly supporting this?) but I do know that whatever sorrow we might feel over those who are lost, God will feel it in a much more potent way than we could ever comprehend, and He will be more than able to help us overcome those feelings, or will choose to take it away from us.

I would also guess we will feel differently about EVERYTHING once we are fully cleansed of sin and its environment, and will finally be able to see things through God's holy eyes.

You are so Wise, your words are very Profound & Comforting.

 

[Dibby53]

Hi Dibby,

I know it seems like an unfathomable pain, to think of those we love being lost forever.

But I think one important perspective we have to remember is that God Himself will be going through this very pain in a way we could never understand, seeing as a large portion of His creation (fallen angels and humans) whom He loved as His own children will be choosing to spend all of eternity away from Him, forever.

The Bible is clear that God wants no one to perish (2 Peter 3:9) and wishes that all would come to repentance, but sadly, many will opt not to.

In the parable of the poor Lazarus and the rich man (beginning in Luke 16:19), the rich man is suffering in hell, and when he looks up, he sees Lazarus in heaven, standing next to Abraham, and begs him to send Lazarus back from the dead to witness to his 5 brothers who are still on earth, saying that he does not want them to wind up in this terrible place.

I know that some interpret this as just a story, but since Jesus cannot lie and wouldn't just make things up, I've always seen this as a glimpse of what the afterlife will be like. The rich man knows he will be separated from his loved ones but yet claims he doesn't want them to end up in hell, even if they would theoretically be in the same place as him. So what must it be like for those on the other side -- the ones in heaven who have to watch their loved ones cast into hell?

I love that the Bible also gives us glimpses of God's heart, and no matter how stubborn, hateful, or rebellious human beings are, He wants nothing more than to pull them close and love them (as Jesus said about wanting to gather those who were rejecting him like a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, Matthew 23:37.) But in order for Him to do this, the person must be willing.

Another look into God's heart that I find intriguing was when God had sent a plague to punish Israel for their rebellion, but when He sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem, He finally told the angel, "Enough! Withdraw your hand!" (1 Chronicles 21). It's as if God Himself is saying, "Stop! I can't stand to watch this suffering anymore, so I am choosing stop it, even though it was the disobedience of the people that brought it on."

What I'm trying to get at is that whatever pain or loss we might feel from being separated from our lost loved ones, God will feel it infinitely more because everyone and everything that will be cast into hell is a being that He personally created and knew in a close, intimate way that no one could understand.

I imagine it to be something like a person who has a spouse or child who is addicted to drugs and has to face the fact that they have lost that person to their own choices and addictions forever, and knows that the only way they can keep the rest of the family safe is to cut themselves off from the destructive person.

As others have pointed out, the Bible says that a time will come where God will wipe away every tear and there will be no pain or sadness.

I heard a pastor preach a sermon once in which he stated that he believes God will eventually close the door to hell, seal it off from the rest of His creation, and purposely choose to forget (in a similar way that He chooses to forget our sins) those who are lost -- forever. This gave me a perspective on hell I've never had before -- I can't bear the thought of God choosing to forget about me forever.

I don't know if this is exactly how it will work (seeing as I don't think there are any verses directly supporting this?) but I do know that whatever sorrow we might feel over those who are lost, God will feel it in a much more potent way than we could ever comprehend, and He will be more than able to help us overcome those feelings, or will choose to take it away from us.

I would also guess we will feel differently about EVERYTHING once we are fully cleansed of sin and its environment, and will finally be able to see things through God's holy eyes.

Thanks
Yes, if God is vastly more loving than me, and he is saddened. Then it doesn't sound like he will enjoy heaven much either!

 

[Dibby53]

It's unfortunate that in this day and age, any conversation on the Afterlife for us Christians always hinges on doctrine; What we miss in all this discussion is that, ALL of Scripture is true - not always LITERAL but TRUE.

Do we remember these words:

# (2 Timothy 3 : 16) " ..... All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, ..... " ?


On this question of Heaven & Hell, any Christian who has read the words of Jesus Christ in the Gospels regarding Sin and its consequences gets a definitive answer:-


# (Matt. 5 : 22) " .... But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell ..... "
# (Matt. 5 : 29) " ..... If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell ..... "
# (Matt. 5 : 30) " ..... And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell ..... "
# (Matt. 10 : 28) " ..... Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell ..... "



HELL EXISTS. I know for myself as a Human Being, the concept of Hell is a terrifying one; To imagine that in this vast universe HE created, there exists a place where many of our fellow brothers and sisters on this planet may end up (and me too if i'm not careful) - a place of endless constant physical and spiritual suffering for all who are under HIS wrath.

Anytime i think of the all the years that i lived in sin, i shudder to imagine what my final destination would have been if HE had chosen to abandon me then. All of us on Earth are only alive today, because of HIS Tender Mercies and the Grace HE has CHOSEN to grant us.

If you choose to doubt that Hell exists, read through the Old Testament (or Google it ) and find examples of some people who instantly fell under GOD's wrath - Achan, Korah, Dathan, Abiram (Numbers 16); All these, together with the Israelites who rebelled against GOD's will in the wilderness afterwards, ended up in Hell immediately.


It's not just an issue of doctrine, consider what the book of Hebrews says about GOD:-

#(Hebrews 12 : 28 - 29) " ..... Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our “God is a consuming fire ” ....


Official statistics tell us that 150,000 people die each day all over the world, that means at least 55 million people die each year - how many of those do you think have accepted Christ and worship HIM in Spirit and Truth ? Do we think they got into Heaven ?

As a Christian, what do you think happens to all the Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists e.t.c who do not worship the one True
GOD when they die ?

If you have the time please Google: Mary Kathryn Baxter; Her visions are a revelation of the existence of Hell that is a real place of eternal torment. And if even this is not evidence enough, Take It To The Lord In Prayer.

HELL is sobering concept even for us Christians because it shows the Depth of GOD's Love for us that HE would CHOOSE us out of the BILLIONS around us to live in fellowship with HIM, not by works but by GRACE; Consider how blessed we are that HE has saved us from the fate of Judas Iscariot or the Millions who died in Noah's Flood or the Billions who will die in the Age of Tribulation to come.

I'm sorry in advance for anyone i've offended by this message, it's given in Love.

Your vision for the majority of people sounds ghastly! The "good news" sounds like very bad news.....peace on earth and goodwill to all men!.....well a few anyway.

 

[Dibby53]

Thank you I have noticed over the last few weeks you have been here that some of the questions you ask show a lack of knowledge of what God has said in His revealed written Word, which is why I have been responding to your questions with the corresponding Scriptures, those I know of at least, that relate to the things you ask.

Thanks
There seem to be 3 main interpretations of scripture concerning hell.
1. Eternal conscious torture.
2. Anhillationism, the second death
3. Eternal restoration, everyone or at least the majority saved eventually.
Already on this thread there are differences happening between believers.
My view tends towards number 3. That God's punishments are purifying and restorative. Fire is used as a symbol of purification.

 

[Dibby53]

Hell and heaven are a state of mind and not places where people go.

1.In the beginning, God created the heavens and earth; these represents everything that was created. Hell is not a physical place within heaven or earth.

2. We are told the heavens and earth will pass away and instead will have new heavens and new earth. In these NH & NE, we still don't have a physical place called hell in them.

Rather, heaven means continued existence/understanding in the new dimension (new heavens and new earth).

Yes I can get that Noose. It's not that people are necessarily going to hell; they maybe there already. Ask those poor souls in a war zone.

 

[Afrikan]

Thanks
There seem to be 3 main interpretations of scripture concerning hell.
1. Eternal conscious torture.
2. Anhillationism, the second death
3. Eternal restoration, everyone or at least the majority saved eventually.
Already on this thread there are differences happening between believers.
My view tends towards number 3. That God's punishments are purifying and restorative. Fire is used as a symbol of purification.

No !! Not Number 3, Number 1 ..... Google: Mary Kathryn Baxter and read her story then come back and tell us if you think everyone will be 'ETERNALLY RESTORED'.

You think HITLER, POL POT, ASSAD, SADDAM HUSSEIN, MAO ZEDONG, GADDAFI, PHARAOH, JUDAS ISCARIOT, FALLEN ANGELS will be restored ??? Based on what criteria ??

Please READ the SCRIPTURES intensively and grow your Knowledge and Faith regarding the things of GOD.

 

[Dibby53]

No !! Not Number 3, Number 1 ..... Google: Mary Kathryn Baxter and read her story then come back and tell us if you think everyone will be 'ETERNALLY RESTORED'.

You think HITLER, POL POT, ASSAD, SADDAM HUSSEIN, MAO ZEDONG, GADDAFI, PHARAOH, JUDAS ISCARIOT, FALLEN ANGELS will be restored ??? Based on what criteria ??

Please READ the SCRIPTURES intensively and grow your Knowledge and Faith regarding the things of GOD.

You seem very keen on people suffering. In the gospels everlasting torment is a mistranslation of the greek word, aionian, which means age long and of limited duration. The people you mention may be in a place of torment, but it is restorative eventually. God is not vindictive. Only God will know the final outcome. My original point to this thread stands: no one of any feeling and love can stand the thought of their lovely Aunty Mary, or uncle Jim in hell forever for not being a born again Christian! It is ghastly! I simply won't be able to enjoy heaven without those I love. How could I?

 

[Afrikan]

You seem very keen on people suffering. In the gospels everlasting torment is a mistranslation of the greek word, aionian, which means age long and of limited duration. The people you mention may be in a place of torment, but it is restorative eventually. God is not vindictive. Only God will know the final outcome. My original point to this thread stands: no one of any feeling and love can stand the thought of their lovely Aunty Mary, or uncle Jim in hell forever for not being a born again Christian! It is ghastly! I simply won't be able to enjoy heaven without those I love. How could I?

Scripture is always going to be the Final authority for us concerning our relationship with GOD as Humans. That's why i reminded you of Scripture verses on references to Hell by Jesus Christ who is ALL-KNOWING.

What criteria do you think he would use to 'Eternally Restore' someone who is already burning in Hell - Scriptures are clear that HELL IS ETERNAL, anything other teaching that deviates from this, is just confusion from the enemy, who would love nothing more than to torment you in Hell for believing him.

I trust that you are a Christian, please do not water down the Word of GOD just because it doesn't fit your view of how you wish things should be.

Again, Please Take It To The Lord In Prayer.

 

[Afrikan]

You seem very keen on people suffering. In the gospels everlasting torment is a mistranslation of the greek word, aionian, which means age long and of limited duration. The people you mention may be in a place of torment, but it is restorative eventually. God is not vindictive. Only God will know the final outcome. My original point to this thread stands: no one of any feeling and love can stand the thought of their lovely Aunty Mary, or uncle Jim in hell forever for not being a born again Christian! It is ghastly! I simply won't be able to enjoy heaven without those I love. How could I?

You will. Either because you live a holy and righteous Christian life and get welcomed into Heaven where all thoughts and cares of this Earth are cleansed from you OR you fall away from the Faith and it won't matter - Hell is the absence of any virtue so basically YOU MINUS ALL THE THINGS WE TAKE FOR GRANTED.

 

[Dibby53]

Scripture is always going to be the Final authority for us concerning our relationship with GOD as Humans. That's why i reminded you of Scripture verses on references to Hell by Jesus Christ who is ALL-KNOWING.

What criteria do you think he would use to 'Eternally Restore' someone who is already burning in Hell - Scriptures are clear that HELL IS ETERNAL, anything other teaching that deviates from this, is just confusion from the enemy, who would love nothing more than to torment you in Hell for believing him.

I trust that you are a Christian, please do not water down the Word of GOD just because it doesn't fit your view of how you wish things should be.

Again, Please Take It To The Lord In Prayer.

I do pray.
You ignored my point on the original Greek being mistranslated as eternal, and everlasting. If I need to believe the doctrine of eternal tormenting hell to be a Christian, then perhaps it is not for me.

God is not a monster. And what you are saying is the Word of God is simply your interpretation.

" Justice is goodness. God confers benefits justly, and punishes with Kindness, since neither goodness without justice, nor justice without goodness , can display the dignity of the divine nature" Origen (184-253AD)

 

[Dibby53]

You will. Either because you live a holy and righteous Christian life and get welcomed into Heaven where all thoughts and cares of this Earth are cleansed from you OR you fall away from the Faith and it won't matter - Hell is the absence of any virtue so basically YOU MINUS ALL THE THINGS WE TAKE FOR GRANTED.

Very few people are without any virtue. That is the point of God's cleansing fire.....to refine what is there, not destroy it all. And I don't want my mind "cleansed" from the memory of those I love who didn't cut the Christian mustard and ended up in a divine Auschwitz!

 

[Afrikan]

Very few people are without any virtue. That is the point of God's cleansing fire.....to refine what is there, not destroy it all. And I don't want my mind "cleansed" from the memory of those I love who didn't cut the Christian mustard and ended up in a divine Auschwitz!

'Christian Mustard' ??

I had hoped to maybe build you up - as we should - with the limited knowledge i have as a fellow Christian but you seem to be comfortable in your own thoughts and opinions. I hope you seek and find the truth eventually.

# (Luke 14 : 25 - 27) " ..... Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple ..... "


Shalom.

 

[morefaithrequired]

better to have friends in Hell than be friendless in Heaven?
I like the idea of corrective punishment after we die. To iron out those weak points of ours.
But the idea of eternal anything just blows my mind. 😁

 

[tourist]

Will God wipe my memory of my wonderful friends? I don't want that.

I don't either. For God to simply wipe your memory away because a loved one didn't make it to heaven seems like a form of lying, even if they are in heaven also. I am quite certain that we will know and recognize our loved ones in heaven otherwise what's the point of going there.

 

[tourist]

I think when it comes to things that don't make sense I go back to the few things I do know. God is just, and God is love. I do not pretend to understand how things will be. My knowledge and ability to understand is too limited. I do know that an injustice will not occur. He is not going to make us forget something that is not right, is not fair. When we get home we will understand. What we need to do is trust that God is who he says he is. I don't just believe in Jesus. I believe Jesus and that is a big difference.

Understanding that God is love is key in beginning to understand the character and nature of God and how it relates to the individual.

 

[Dibby53]

'Christian Mustard' ??

I had hoped to maybe build you up - as we should - with the limited knowledge i have as a fellow Christian but you seem to be comfortable in your own thoughts and opinions. I hope you seek and find the truth eventually.

# (Luke 14 : 25 - 27) " ..... Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple ..... "


Shalom.

Ok Afrikan
I probably got a bit too passionate in my last posting. It happens. I am comfortable with some of my opinions, uncomfortable with others. I have, do and will continue to seek truth....I love to question and find out. Thats why i,m on here. 35 years ago I was a fundamentalist christian...thought I knew it all... but now, well my life is full of nuance and trying to make sense of this life and the experience of God. My overwhelming experience of God is this amazing love, a love that I feel knows no bounds. Even hellish ones.

As for building me up i,m not sure how a doctrine of eternal damnation could do that?

 

[tourist]

better to have friends in Hell than be friendless in Heaven?
I like the idea of corrective punishment after we die. To iron out those weak points of ours.
But the idea of eternal anything just blows my mind. 😁

That would be purgatory, sort of like a reform school for those that have lost their way. I like that idea as well.

 

[morefaithrequired]

And the winner for Best Afterlife Predictions of Heaven, Hell and whatever else goes to ..............
So we will all attend an Academy Awards Ceremony. You should get good odds for the Catholic view. It has really lost favouritism.....


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