Not By Works

[TheDivineWatermark]

sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord.

what level is enough in that verse? i know all christians are being sanctified. but i also believe even if you just got saved dont have time to repent of all things and die you go to heaven still. so what about that verse?

I've heard a couple things regarding this verse, over the years; some things to consider:

--"Pursue peace with all men, and the holiness/sanctification, without which no one will see the Lord."

[who around us could "see the Lord" in us, if we're behaving "like the devil" ]


--but further, the word itself is used with the definite article ('the') here, unlike in all of its other usages elsewhere (usages, something like 10x?), so we should ask ourselves, "why?" ["THE sanctification"/"THE holiness" in this verse... and see also 1Cor1:30 ]...


--speaking to that ^ point [re: "THE sanctification"], Gaebelein has some interesting things to say in his Commentary on Hebrews 12 (below)...

[quoting from Gaebelein's Commentary on Hebrews 12 (source: BibleHub)]

"Hebrews 12:12-17
"Words of exhortation and encouragement follow. The first three exhortations refer to ourselves (Hebrews 12:12-13); to others and to God (Hebrews 12:14). To follow peace (pursue peace) with all men is to characterize those who have peace with God and who know the way of peace. Holiness must also be pursued, for without that none shall see the Lord. In Christ, believers are sanctified once for all, as this Epistle has so clearly demonstrated. The holiness which qualifies a man to see the Lord, is Christ, and His blessed finished work. Abiding in Him the believer pursues the way of holiness, practical holiness, separation from evil in all things. It does not mean a certain “holiness experience” by which a believer is fitted, by eradication of the old nature, or by something else, to see the Lord. In Christ the believer is sanctified; as Martin Luther used to say “My holiness is in Heaven.” The exhortation here means to pursue that holiness into which grace has called us, which grace has given and for which grace gives daily power. Closely connected with this is the warning which follows in Hebrews 12:15-17. The man who falls short of the grace of God, who lacketh that grace which is in Christ Jesus, his heart not resting in Him, is a mere professing believer and Possesseth not the holiness, which grace alone can give. He is a root of bitterness and a profane, and earthly-minded person, as Esau was who sold his birthright.

"(The time came when he regretted that for a paltry gratification he forfeited his right. Afterwards, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected. For though he sought carefully with tears to change his father’s mind he found (in Isaac) no place for change of mind. This seems to be the meaning of this difficult passage, Esau is never represented as an apostle, as one who professed and appeared to be a believer, and then fell away. So (apart from other reasons) the meaning of the apostle cannot be that Esau, as an apostate, was not able to find repentance. But we know that, notwithstanding his vehement and urgent entreaties, Isaac could not change his mind, or repent him of what he had done in conferring the blessing on Jacob, which God approved of” Saphir.)"

--Gaebelein, Commentary on Hebrews 12 [source: BibleHub]

[end quoting Gaebelein]

Hope that helps.

 

[limmuwd]

Let's look at a few verses here...

“whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” - Rom 10:13

"he who endures to the end shall be saved." - Matt 24:13

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" - Mark 16:16

"how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation" - Heb 2:3

"work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" - Phil 2:12

"He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him" - Heb 5:9

"If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved" - John 10:9

"I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." - Jude 1:5

Every use of "saved" & "salvation" in these verses is from the same Greek word -

σώζω sṓzō - save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):
—heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

My question to those who insist they are "saved" because of their professed belief, is "why are these verses, and many others, in the Bible?" We know all the letters and epistles were written only and directly to those who had been "saved", so what is all this "enduring", "working it out", "obeying" and being "baptized" talking about. Sounds like we haven't yet attained. Or has something changed and God is more lenient than He was with the disciples and Apostles?

"Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you."
- Phil 3:12-15

Oh yes, I believe all reading this have been "saved." But what are we doing with our "salvation"?
Will we be among those who "attain" and to whom "an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2Pet 1:11); or will we "be destroyed" because we refused to "believe all that Jesus taught." ?

Truthfully, for us who have been "saved", the choice is ours. We are determining our eternal destiny daily by our behavior.

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. " - Gal 6:7-8

Let us be counted among those who choose wisely.

"Then those who feared the Lord spoke to one another,
And the Lord listened and heard them;
So a book of remembrance was written before Him
For those who fear the Lord
And who meditate on His name.
17 “They shall be Mine,” says the Lord of hosts,
“On the day that I make them My jewels.
And I will spare them
As a man spares his own son who serves him.”
18 Then you shall again discern
Between the righteous and the wicked,
Between one who serves God
And one who does not serve Him."
- Mal 3:16-18

Amen.

Interesting how Mr Ed disagrees with the Word of God.
Even just posting the verses straight from the Bible is an offense to him and the man-made tradition he has embraced.
Hmmm....

 

[limmuwd]

You will understand scripture correctly when you accept that "saved" is not always a reference to spiritual salvation.

Context and always starting from the point of eternal security...... by grace through faith in the completed work of Christ Jesus, is the only way to rightly divide.

The thing is, ma'am, I actually have far greater understanding on this than you do. Sorry to be so blunt. But the doctrines that you embrace require one to ignore large portions of what Jesus directly taught and the whole of Scripture declares. That message the Lord commissioned me to teach includes ALL of Scripture, even the verses many use in attempt to refute God's Word.

Until the Lord opens your eyes, you cannot see.

"Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures." (Luke 24:45)

That is why Paul prayed for the fervent saints, "that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power." (Eph 1:17-19)

 

[limmuwd]

I really CANNOT believe you actually said this: We are determining our eternal destiny daily by our behavior.

You are saying our "behavior" which is a cover up word for "works" determines our eternal destiny. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE.

After we are saved, our "works/behavior" do NOT determine our eternal destiny.

ONLY by believing by faith and loving the Truth given to us by the Holy Spirit that the Blood and Body of Yeshua/Jesus Christ saves us, and confessing with our mouths this Truth that we believe in our hearts, are we saved.
.

Oh no, not a "cover up" at all, but only what Jesus Himself taught.

"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." - John 5:28-29

And the Apostle Paul confirms this -

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." - 2Cor 5:10

Your "pastor" has probably told you that "those who have done good" means that they 'accepted Jesus' and "those who did evil' didn't... but that's not True.

Again, I encourage you and all to read these passages of Scripture for yourself, which declare plainly that we are all, both heathen and church-goer alike, will be judged and recompensed in that Day, on what we DID in this life, not what we claimed to have believed.
(Psalm 62:12, Prov 24:12, Jer 17:10, Jer 32:19, Eze 33:20, Lam 3:64, Matt 16:27, John 5:29, Rom 2:6, Rom 14:12, 2 Cor 5:10, 1Pet 1:17, Rev 20:12, and Rev 22:12) And there are many others.

"Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God." - 1Pet 1:13-21

Amen

When read in context, so many of the verses that man-ordained ministers pluck out to preach "another gospel", we find fuller understanding of God's conditions on those who will be united to Christ as His counterpart in that Day.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ limmuwd, "the judgment seat of Christ" (the "BEMA") is NOT the same thing (nor at the same TIME-SLOT) as "the Great White Throne judgment"... many people conflate these into being one and the same. They are not.

 

[limmuwd]

The Holy Spirit?
Were the commandments given through Christ or given by Christ?

John 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

I'll let the Word answer -

"Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me." - John 14:23-24

And while we are at it... how many on this forum are following that commandment? I've been shown much the opposite of the "love" that God requires of those who will "come after" Jesus.

 

[limmuwd]

^ limmuwd, "the judgment seat of Christ" (the "BEMA") is NOT the same thing (nor at the same TIME-SLOT) as "the Great White Throne judgment"... many people conflate these into being one and the same. They are not.

Indeed. You are correct. However since not many know that, and it could open up another whole can of worms, I simplified it, as Paul often did when addressing "carnal" men in the churches.

Using portions of John 5 and Revelation, I look a bit into this in a teaching on Jesus' Parable of the Sheep and Goats.

 

[BillG]

And while we are at it... how many on this forum are following that commandment? I've been shown much the opposite of the "love" that God requires of those who will "come after" Jesus.

And while we are at it.

Name and shame those who are not following that commandment and why not?

 

[OneOfHis]

Uh oh.... another one who does not understand context is important.

I'll let the Word answer -

"Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me." - John 14:23-24

And while we are at it... how many on this forum are following that commandment? I've been shown much the opposite of the "love" that God requires of those who will "come after" Jesus.

You can say you will let the word answer till you're blue in the face and highlight or alter verses however you see fit, but it is still you giving your opinion on what these verses mean.


Exodus 32:33

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.”



Oh, hath ye sinned?

C'mon now.

lol


You are at least aware Jesus is God and in His flesh was God in the flesh right?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God." - 1Pet 1:13-21

When read in context, […]

Speaking of context...

--verse 18 says, "you were redeemed"

--verse 15's verb is "passive" ["holy [/set apart] in all conduct be [passive]"]

 

[OneOfHis]

Jesus said, "I will lose nothing the Father has given me, but raise it up the last day."

Jesus said, "He that believes on the Son is having everlasting life."

Jesus said, "He that believes on the Son is not condemned."

Do not let the deceivers, working for Christ devaluers lead you astray. The bible is clear, do not be removed from the simplicity found in Christ.

It pleased God, by the foolishness of preaching to SAVE THEM THAT BELIEVE <---NO WORKS, RELIGIOUS HOOP JUMPING, SACRAMENTS, CHURCH AFFILIATION, GETTING WET, and or any other religious rigmarole required.

God saves eternally by faith and JESUS, THE SON OF GOD AND GOD IN THE FLESH IS THE SOURCE OF SAID SAVING FAITH.

He that hath begun a good work of faith in you will FINISH IT and COMPLETE IT!

THE GIFTS AND CALLING OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE!!

Clear as day.

 

[OneOfHis]

You will understand scripture correctly when you accept that "saved" is not always a reference to spiritual salvation.

Context and always starting from the point of eternal security...... by grace through faith in the completed work of Christ Jesus, is the only way to rightly divide.

Amen

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Indeed. You are correct. However since not many know that, and it could open up another whole can of worms, I simplified it, as Paul often did when addressing "carnal" men in the churches.
Using portions of John 5 and Revelation, I look a bit into this in a teaching on Jesus' Parable of the Sheep and Goats.

The parable of the "Sheep and Goat" [judgment of the "nations"] is not in reference to "the Church which is His body" at all. It speaks to an entirely distinct time-frame, and THEIR entrance (or not) into "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" (in mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children...), so these are "still-living" persons at the time of His Second Coming to the earth [i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth] (not the time [nor context] of "our Rapture/Departure" [which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body"--i.e. all those saved "in this present age [singular]" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN)]). Conflating these distinctions results in confusion, and incorrect doctrine.

 

[limmuwd]

And while we are at it.

Name and shame those who are not following that commandment and why not?

Anyone even glancing through this thread can see much of the carnal nature "that will not inherit the Kingdom of God" displayed.

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God." - Gal 5:19-21

Do those behind the pulpits on Sunday mornings not teach this Truth? This message of Paul, by the Holy Spirit, is directed to "saved" people. He is warning the "believer" that if these attributes are in us, we will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. We could recite a 'sinner's prayer' every morning, and get baptized in water every night, and we still will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God, if we do not repent of these sinful behaviors and attitudes.

Yet it seems so many "pastors" today refuse to consent to the very Words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the doctrine which accords with godliness of conduct.

"If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself." - 1Tim 6:3-5

May we be among the few who "conduct themselves worthy of the gospel of Christ."

Amen.

 

[BillG]

I'll let the Word answer -

"Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me." - John 14:23-24

And while we are at it... how many on this forum are following that commandment? I've been shown much the opposite of the "love" that God requires of those who will "come after" Jesus.

I will let the word answer as well.

John 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Jesus said I GIVE TO YOU in the above

John 14:23-24
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

So to me we see a difference.

Jesus said I.

So it was Jesus who commanded.

On a side note.

Who has the authority to forgive sins?

 

[limmuwd]

The parable of the "Sheep and Goat" [judgment of the "nations"] is not in reference to "the Church which is His body" at all. It speaks to an entirely distinct time-frame, and THEIR entrance (or not) into "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" (in mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children...), so these are "still-living" persons at the time of His Second Coming to the earth [i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth] (not the time [nor context] of "our Rapture/Departure" [which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body"--i.e. all those saved "in this present age [singular]" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN)]). Conflating these distinctions results in confusion, and incorrect doctrine.

You are partially correct.
At the Judgment of the Sheep & Goats, Christ (Head and Body) will minister judgment and eternal destiny of the nations whom they've inherited, based solely on there works. And the bulk of these will be admitted into the Kingdom, and be under the authority of the Lamb and His Counterpart.

The First Resurrection saints - those who had overcome, walked worthy and proven themselves faithful til the end - had received their glorified bodies at the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and ascended into the air, dethroned the "principalities and dark rulers in the heavenlies" and taken their place. This is the beginning of the 1000 year reign, from Jerusalem. This is all clear Bible. No one was snatched secretly to heaven to escape the necessary tribulation that will refine the Elect.

Man, I'm ready to get preaching here! I love being in the Word and expounding on the Truth and God's great plan and purpose for Creation.
Too much to share here... That's why I appreciate the privilege of speaking in churches, leading Bible studies and sharing on my website. To Him Who Overcomes

Let us keep pressing in. We are entering the Feast of Trumpets. May we endure and be found worthy of Tabernacles.

Peace & Blessings.

 

[limmuwd]

I will let the word answer as well.

John 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Jesus said I GIVE TO YOU in the above

John 14:23-24
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

So to me we see a difference.

Jesus said I.

So it was Jesus who commanded.

On a side note.

Who has the authority to forgive sins?

Before I answer your question... you are saying that you deny what Jesus stated in John 14:24?

 

[BillG]

Before I answer your question... you are saying that you deny what Jesus stated in John 14:24?

John 14:24
24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

Nope we cant deny it but do you deny that Jesus said "A new commamdent I GIVE TO YOU?

Before I answer your response then tell me what are your thoughts concerning who had the authority to forgive sins?

 

[limmuwd]

Uh oh.... another one who does not understand context is important.

You can say you will let the word answer till you're blue in the face and highlight or alter verses however you see fit, but it is still you giving your opinion on what these verses mean.

Exodus 32:33

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.”

Oh, hath ye sinned?

C'mon now.

You are at least aware Jesus is God and in His flesh was God in the flesh right?

Actually I do not adhere to the traditional 'three-in-one-god' teaching. It's just not found in the Scripture or especially in what Jesus taught.

And I've actually done a teaching on "Context" !

Ramblings on the Kingdom: CONTEXT

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Let's look at a few verses here...
[…]
"work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" - Phil 2:12

I believe verse 12 should be read in its context alongside verse 14 (of previous chpt/set-up), which says,

"and the greater part of the brethren in the Lord, having confidence [/having been convinced] by my bonds, are more abundantly bold -- fearlessly to speak the word." - Phil1:14

Now (in effect), YOU [/Philippians]... you (who may not be as convincedly-bold as the others have become!) "work out [outwardly, so to speak] YOUR OWN salvation [the salvation you possess] with fear and trembling [do it afraid! if you have to ]" … this is an exhortation to those believers... in the context of Paul's being imprisoned... that they don't need him/his presence! They can strap on their own boots and get at it, even if it has to be "WITH FEAR and trembling" (and considering why they would even BE fearful in these/such circumstances, that they were in/experiencing! )