Is unconditional election biblical?

[posthuman]

Curious where you get the idea that God calls our "righteous deeds" filthy rags?

Isaiah the prophet laments concerning the religious leaders of the his day in Isaiah 64:6, but neither God, nor His Son Jesus, ever said that.

In fact, God calls many people righteous in the Scripture based on what they did!

what makes you think Isaiah is talking only about 'religious leaders' in ch. 64?
he says "all of us" have become as unclean, and "our" righteous deeds are filthy rags -- squarely putting himself in that category. and he goes on, in verse 7 saying "no one" calls on His name, and then -

Do not be angry beyond measure, Lord;​

do not remember our sins forever.​

Oh, look on us, we pray,​

for we are all your people.​

(Isaiah 64:9)
​

i just re-read the hole chapter and i didn't notice anything whatsoever even approaching substantiating your claim . . ?
just wondering where you get that from, if you could point it out. thanks.

also interested in hearing how you reconcile your view on this with such passages as Romans 3, 10:1-4, and Philippians 3:1-9 . . ?

 

[PennEd]

Curious where you get the idea that God calls our "righteous deeds" filthy rags?

Isaiah the prophet laments concerning the religious leaders of the his day in Isaiah 64:6, but neither God, nor His Son Jesus, ever said that.

In fact, God calls many people righteous in the Scripture based on what they did!

I see no fruit in engaging you. You are at best a heretic, and at worse a full-fledged wolf in sheep clothes.

You deny that Jesus Christ is God.

You deny the Trinity.

You deny that Jesus Christ's Sacrificial death is sufficient for Eternal Life to those who believe and are born again.

You have claimed that anybody who denies YOU will regret it on judgement day.

You have claimed that you will be equal to God in the Kingdom.


You also said you were fed up with CC and needed to leave and spend more time making others twice the child of hell. Nice to see your word is worthless.

 

[posthuman]

Not what you think it means.

you have no idea what i think it means. i've never said.

In that passage of 1 Corinthians 7. what is being said is, if one spouse is a believer and there are children in the household, the relationship is made legitimate, sanctified, because one unbeliever is yoked with one partner who has faith . And this in turn makes the children sanctified of that union, legitimate, rather than as illegitimate children.

do you believe the children of unbelievers are all bastards?
that no unbelievers marriage is legitimate?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

@7seasrekeyed & @Whispered both agreeing with posts that deny the necessity of church attendance. This shows why all three, including @IFOLLOWHIM have a theology that is severely lacking.

 

[Magenta]

i've been mulling over this, John 6:5-6, for much of the afternoon, in the back of my mind, while i was working.
He asked to test Philip, not because He didn't know.
not because He didn't know what to do.

it reminded me, of course, of the garden when He asked where Adam & the Woman were, and who told them they were naked, and if they had eaten of the tree. not because He didn't know. there, He asks like a prosecutor - entering testimony into the record. is it the same here?
the word 'test' here is the same one in Matthew 4, when He went into the wilderness and had the famous confrontation with Satan. some translations call it 'tempt' there - but that can't be right. God is not tempted. Satan may have thought he was tempting the Son, but i don't think Satan knew who he was talking to at that point. i don't think he realized, yet. there, it's really Christ being 'tested' -- and not in the sense that He might fail and it needed to be determined. more like, He was being 'proven' - the way that i 'test' lab equipment after i calibrate it: to show that the calibration was successful. i'm not expecting a failure; i'm demonstrating what's true.

same here, Christ isn't tempting Philip. 'let no one say they are tempted by God' -- Christ is proving something by asking this. He's demonstrating something.



here in vv. 8-9, i am sure He also knew what Andrew would say. so He's not only demonstrating something about Philip but something about Andrew: something about faith, and trust.

maybe Andrew's closer, because he came up with some food, but Philip just came up with futility. but Andrew has a sense of futility, too - 'but how far will they go among so many?'
oh look, total depravity. none of them have it right -- none of them but Jesus. Jesus just had them sit down in the grass, gave thanks, and commenced with the distributing.

grass - which all mankind is like, growing for a season, then quickly fading and turning to dust. that's what they all sat on, while He took a tiny, logically completely insufficient amount, and fed everyone there with it -- made them full, so that there were leftovers. and He said, collect all the remnant; let none be left.
and He already knew what He was going to do - He said this to test Philip. Philip, who had the wrong answer. God, who knew Philip did. what's He doing? condemning Philip? no, i don't think so. i think, teaching Philip. and Andrew. and all of us.
oh look, preservation of the saints.

Then those men, when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said, “This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” ​

(John 6:14) ​

​

does His word go out and return to Him without accomplishing its purpose?
lol! no, it does not.
oh look, the irrevocable & effectual drawing of the Father

I have figured that God questioning Adam, "Where are you"? is like a teaching moment, for asking questions is, yes, just that: a teaching method. We know the teacher pretty much always knows the answer And in the case of God? Assuredly, He knows the answer. The conclusion I have drawn from this is that God was letting Adam know he was lost, for God knew exactly where he was, and why.

 

[Whispered]

But they assembled together in corporate worship. You are to do this as well. Don’t mitigate this my friend.

That would be the reference to the Ekklesia, congregation.
When someone speaks of church, from the Greek, "kyriakos " = Belonging to the Lord, as one could infer you were doing prior, they may think you're speaking of the church house where a pastor and congregation meet.

Therefore, it is true what has been said. That structure is not necessary for the people of Christ to gather together and worship. In the time of Jesus the new Christians gathered in homes, caves, out of doors. The body of the faithful are the Ekklesia, the church of God in Christ.
People do not need to enter a building to worship God because God does not live there. God lives in us.

48"However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:...." The Book of Acts chapter 7

24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the LORD of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands." The Book of Acts chapter 17

People do not need to enter a building to worship God because God does not live there. God lives in us.
The Book of Ephesians chapter 2
Built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

 

[Whispered]

@7seasrekeyed & @Whispered both agreeing with posts that deny the necessity of church attendance. This shows why all three, including @IFOLLOWHIM have a theology that is severely lacking.

Perhaps this article with references will assist your theology.
The Translation of the Greek Word "Ekklesia" as "church" in the English Bible, and the use of the Term “the church” and its Ramifications.

 

[Whispered]

you have no idea what i think it means. i've never said.

Of course you did. When you posted the scripture thinking it a source for the answer to why Calvinists believe their children are elect through them.

do you believe the children of unbelievers are all bastards?
that no unbelievers marriage is legitimate?

Immaterial to the discussion. The passage you shared pertained to unbeliever wedded to a believer. Not two unbelievers wedded to one another.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

on closer look. how often do arminians like methodist and pentecostals talk about arminianism or jacobus arminius? i never heard it. not even once. but calvinists talk about calvinism and calvin all the time. try again

and make threads trying to convince everyone else who is not a Calvinist that there is salvation under no other name system but Calvinism

yes, I follow Calvin and him predestined for salvation cries the Calvinist

oh maybe others are saved

but really? are they?

you know, when you think about it, it really is much easier to follow a man, even a hard hearted one like Calvin, then Jesus

 

[Whispered]

has anyone actually ever heard a Calvinist say that?
in my experience it's only been Arminians making the accusation, never the Calvinists giving any such advice.

The T in TULIP's Total Depravity doctrine says it.
As does the U and the I.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

@7seasrekeyed & @Whispered both agreeing with posts that deny the necessity of church attendance. This shows why all three, including @IFOLLOWHIM have a theology that is severely lacking.

I would say nice try. but it isn't. it is just more of that sad sad sack cloth and ashes mentality...by the way I have been meaning to ask why you are in a continued state of mourning and following OT customs? rhetorical question

to get to your silly accusation, what does the Bible say?

it says do not forbid assembling together

assembling buildings? no. assembling people

people who believe in Jesus

churches are full of dead people just like the religious leaders of Jesus' day thought they were the children of Abraham but Jesus told them their father was the devil

yet there are still many that do share in true salvation and are a part of the body of Christ

but nowhere in scripture are Christians constrained to any particular building. we are members of the Body of Christ and led and kept by His Spirit

but perhaps you can point out where I said I don't go to church or think no one should go?

I never said that. is the truth in you or not?


if only you did not seem to take such glee in your accusations

you remind me of someone I read about

 

[Melach]

and make threads trying to convince everyone else who is not a Calvinist that there is salvation under no other name system but Calvinism

yes, I follow Calvin and him predestined for salvation cries the Calvinist

oh maybe others are saved

but really? are they?

you know, when you think about it, it really is much easier to follow a man, even a hard hearted one like Calvin, then Jesus

calvinist many times say that others are elect also. but thats another answer i hate. because why wouldnt God give those elect people all the right doctrine of calvinism then? why does God let some of His elect like me wallow in anti-calvinism? maybe im not saved after all?

you see what calvinism does it makes salvation really a roll of dice. you can never know for sure

 

[7seasrekeyed]

calvinist many times say that others are elect also. but thats another answer i hate. because why wouldnt God give those elect people all the right doctrine of calvinism then? why does God let some of His elect like me wallow in anti-calvinism? maybe im not saved after all?

you see what calvinism does it makes salvation really a roll of dice. you can never know for sure

well they have to come up with something to call saved people who do not get filed under Calvinsim

albeit begrudgeingly

'wallow in anti-Calvinism'....

if you dip in the Jordan I think you will be cured


enough for tonight. apparently calvin is not going anywhere just yet anyway

 

[Whispered]

Curious where you get the idea that God calls our "righteous deeds" filthy rags?

Isaiah the prophet laments concerning the religious leaders of the his day in Isaiah 64:6, but neither God, nor His Son Jesus, ever said that.

In fact, God calls many people righteous in the Scripture based on what they did!

True. Isaiah's passage is grounded in Isaiah lamenting over the people of Judah and Jerusalem.
Overview
Do you know Christians who live double lives? Who only seem to be playing with God? The prophet Isaiah knew people who lived double lives—his fellow Israelites—and he shared God’s hatred for their duplicitous compromise. In the book of Isaiah, he challenges them to shape up and love God with all their hearts and minds.

It is not to say all peoples righteousness is counted as filthy rags always.
If it were to communicate that we would be hard pressed to reconcile all those verses in the New Testament that espouse righteousness.
And need we forget also? Imputed righteousness. If it were all as filthy rags ...

 

[Whispered]

well they have to come up with something to call saved people who do not get filed under Calvinsim

albeit begrudgeingly

'wallow in anti-Calvinism'....

if you dip in the Jordan I think you will be cured


enough for tonight. apparently calvin is not going anywhere just yet anyway

Just yet anyway.

Same here. Long day. God willing I'll see you all tomorrow.

 

[Magenta]

does His word go out and return to Him without accomplishing its purpose?
lol! no, it does not.
oh look, the irrevocable & effectual drawing of the Father

Isaiah 55:10-11

 

[limmuwd]

I see no fruit in engaging you. You are at best a heretic, and at worse a full-fledged wolf in sheep clothes.

You deny that Jesus Christ is God.

You deny the Trinity.

You deny that Jesus Christ's Sacrificial death is sufficient for Eternal Life to those who believe and are born again.

You have claimed that anybody who denies YOU will regret it on judgement day.

You have claimed that you will be equal to God in the Kingdom.


You also said you were fed up with CC and needed to leave and spend more time making others twice the child of hell. Nice to see your word is worthless.

Wow. Again, the fruit of your still carnal, unrepentant, un-transformed, unsaved, nature is shining through.
Interesting that the verse you used earlier, actually supports the Truth I teach -

"So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God." - Luke 18:19

Curious if you can see what our Lord Jesus says here. For it confirms the understanding I have of the relationship between the Father (God) and Jesus (His Son.)

And I said I was leaving that silly thread where so much darkness lies.
But thanks for following along.

 

[limmuwd]

what makes you think Isaiah is talking only about 'religious leaders' in ch. 64?
he says "all of us" have become as unclean, and "our" righteous deeds are filthy rags -- squarely putting himself in that category. and he goes on, in verse 7 saying "no one" calls on His name, and then -

Do not be angry beyond measure, Lord;​

do not remember our sins forever.​

Oh, look on us, we pray,​

for we are all your people.​

(Isaiah 64:9) ​

​

i just re-read the hole chapter and i didn't notice anything whatsoever even approaching substantiating your claim . . ?
just wondering where you get that from, if you could point it out. thanks.

also interested in hearing how you reconcile your view on this with such passages as Romans 3, 10:1-4, and Philippians 3:1-9 . . ?

In context, we find the Prophet speaking this Truth -
"You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways."
- Isaiah 64:5a

My main point, is that God never said He views our righteous deeds as - literally in the Hebrew - 'a soiled menstrual cloth.'

And among the many passages I could use to support my understanding, we have the irrefutable passage from one of Jesus' three closest disciples -
"Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous." - 1John 3:7

All the passages you mention from Paul's letters as well easily fit into what I believe and teach in the churches. For Paul is not writing that behaving properly, with integrity and faithfulness - which God requires - but he was reminding those of Israel blood that the regulations and ordinances of the Law of Moses is of no benefit if our hearts are not right with God.

Nearly every one of Paul's letters tells the "believers" that they must "walk worthy" if they are to inherit the promises of God. And of course it is only by our "works" that we are proven worthy and faithful. We know that "Faith without works is useless."

I've shared a bit on this over the years, and even more so lately, as God is unveiling His Truth and calling His Elect to "come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing, that He might receive us." (2Cor 6:17-18)

Righteous Deeds (Thoughts on 1John 3:7-8) and Righteous Deeds (Continuing thoughts on 1John 3)

God's Wisdom and Understanding to all,
Michael

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

you see what calvinism does it makes salvation really a roll of dice. you can never know for sure

Another lie made by non-Calvinists on what we believe. You are making God’s gracious choice of saving undeserving, God-hating, rebellious ppl, into nothing more than a lottery. You are impugning His holiness. If He doesn’t agree with you on everything, He is not worthy of your praise and worship. God has to meet your self-righteous demands to garner your love, praise and worship.


In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.[James 1:18] It was by His will, and not ours, that we are saved. That goes for all who are saved. So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.[Romans 9:16] Ppl are saved by God showing them His grace and mercy. Romans 9:15 states He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Yet, not everyone is extended this mercy, but justly left in their fallen state.

Acts 18:9 And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; 10 for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” 11 And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them. Notice the Lord told Paul there were many of His ppl there in Macedonia, and he stated there for 18 months. Notice that the Lord never said all of Macedonia were His ppl.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Which, actually, you just don't do.

Notice he said he owed them nothing. Hmmmm, Cain acted the exact same way when he asked God, “A.m. I my brother’s keeper?” Well, yes, he was. It’s a flippant attitude directed at both Abel(whom Cain murdered), and @IFOLLOWHIM directed at his fellow Brothers and Sisters in Christ.