Theistic Evolution (God + Evolution)

[loveasaweapon]

AnandaHya,

You're welcome. What is nice about the book, because it is a collection of works by different scientists, is you don't have to read it completely straight through to get something out of it (although I would still recommend reading the whole book). I often use it as a reference book--if someone wants to talk about evolution, or thermodynamics, or biology, or geology--there's a chapter for that. The thing I don't like about the online version of the book is it just gives the authors' names for chapter titles, whereas in the paperback copy that I have it gives names and their field of study.

If you ever do start any sort of discussion on another thread on anything from that, or anything else on this subject, I would appreciate very much if you would let me know. Thanks and God bless.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Macro-Evolution has some serious issues with scripture.

Luke 3

23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,
the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,
the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath,
the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein,
the son of Josech, the son of Joda,
27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa,
the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,
the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melki,
the son of Addi, the son of Cosam,
the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,
29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer,
the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon,
the son of Judah, the son of Joseph,
the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,
31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna,
the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan,
the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse,
the son of Obed, the son of Boaz,
the son of Salmon,[d] the son of Nahshon,
33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram,[e]
the son of Hezron, the son of Perez,
the son of Judah, 34 the son of Jacob,
the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham,
the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,
35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu,
the son of Peleg, the son of Eber,
the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan,
the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem,
the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,
37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,
the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,
the son of Kenan, 38 the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Remove Adam, and you remove Christ. Remove Christ, and you have no Christianity.

 

[dmdave17]

OK. Explain to me how the Grand Canyon formed in 10,000 years. This should be interesting.

How about overnight? “I am the Lord, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27) With respect to "evidence", much of what is accepted as "hard scientific fact" today began with suppositions which were impossible to prove empirically. As one example, Darwin himself said that his theory could not be proven until fossils were discovered of "bridge species". Of course there have been no such discoveries.

Science has its place in the world but, in my opinion, it has been used as a tool by the devil for too long, to plant seeds of doubt in believers throughout modern history. To be certain I checked the creation story in Genesis. Genesis 2, verse 19, says "Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them;..." (emphasis added) To say anything else (micro evolution) is to call God a liar.

The timing issue, I believe, only serves to place limits on God's limitless power. I refer you to Jeremiah 32:27.

 

[ItinerantLurker]

1. God is love! If God truly is love, then he would be totally against even thinking about using evolution in creation. Why? Because one of evolution's most important principle is natural selection. How does this conflict with God? DEATH! Natural selection is just another synonym for it. If God did use evolution he would be a God of death not love.

Natural selection is not a synonym for "death", it's a description of what we observe happening. Not only are you apparently misunderstanding the term, but you seem to be saying that God would never use a process that we observe happening every day. When your assertions conflict with reality reality will win every time.

2. God creates with purpose. Evolution has no purpose, no meaning, no direction, and no goal.

How about plate tectonics? Convection currents? Relativity? Why does evolution get special treatment here as far as what science Christians should ostensibly reject?

3. Jesus died for our salvation. As i stated in #1 God + evolution = death, death is the product of sin. In a nutshell means Jesus dying was meaningless and most likely not son the of God. Which points to God being one of total submission.

It seems like you are trying to say that Theistic Evolution annihilates the need for salvation by generally rejecting the historicity of Adam. Such notions are simplistic in their error; is the meaning of the parable of the prodigal son dependent upon the historicity of the story? Is the truth behind the parable of the good Samaritan dependent upon the events having actually transpired exactly as is recorded?

4. Genesis is historical! Unlike books like revelations, Genesis clearly states how the world came to be and its early history. to assume Genesis 1 is symbolic is just plain ignorance.

Except that it isn't, as evidenced quite clearly by conflicting accounts within the first two chapters. FYI, leading church figures from Augustine to Aquinas to Calvin wrote and spoke of the creation account as symbolic/alleghorical long before Darwin came along.

Those who sit upon fences often loose their balance.

“The danger of a simple faith is simplistic answers. . .” - Ravi Zacharias




Lurker

 

[ItinerantLurker]

Cases such as fossilized trees that are upright through laters that an evolutionary geologist would say took millions of years to be deposited demonstrate that these millions of years simply do not exist. For more information, check out Creationontheweb.com

Your source is lying to you. Feel free to correct their error at your leisure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polystrate_fossil#Geological_explanation




Lurker

 

[ItinerantLurker]

As one example, Darwin himself said that his theory could not be proven until fossils were discovered of "bridge species". Of course there have been no such discoveries.

You may want to check yourself before you wreck yourself on that one. Making obviously false claims isn't going to impress anyone, especially not non-believers.



Lurker

 

[superdave5221]

How about overnight? “I am the Lord, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27) With respect to "evidence", much of what is accepted as "hard scientific fact" today began with suppositions which were impossible to prove empirically. As one example, Darwin himself said that his theory could not be proven until fossils were discovered of "bridge species". Of course there have been no such discoveries.

Science has its place in the world but, in my opinion, it has been used as a tool by the devil for too long, to plant seeds of doubt in believers throughout modern history. To be certain I checked the creation story in Genesis. Genesis 2, verse 19, says "Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them;..." (emphasis added) To say anything else (micro evolution) is to call God a liar.

The timing issue, I believe, only serves to place limits on God's limitless power. I refer you to Jeremiah 32:27.

I agree, and have already stated that Darwinian evolution (microevolution) is a myth. However, science is not opposed to the bible. You are the one limiting God, in that He had to do it your way. If you are worried about limiting God, then why didn't He create the universe in 5 seconds. Why did it take Him six days? He could have done it in 5 seconds. Your argument is meaningless.

As to creating the Grand Canyon overnight, how would you explain the sorting into layers of brachiopod fossils?

Is God playing with us? Is He deceiving us on purpose? That is not the God that I know and love.

Did God deliberately place those fossils there to deceive us? Did He deliberately place dinosaur fossils everywhere so that we would be misled?

James 1: 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God "; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin ; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

Our God is not a deceptive God. And anyone who ignores evidence in favor of fundamentalism is being naive and unrealistic.

 

[superdave5221]

Let me clarify my previous post. Macroevolution is a myth, not microevolution. Darwinianism promotes both, but in particular macro, as in the tree of life. There is no scientific evidence for macroevolution, however there IS scientific evidence for microevolution. Please forgive the typo.

 

[trust_in_the_name]

Darwinianism

Darwinism.

 

[superdave5221]

Darwinism.

Thank you.

 

[trust_in_the_name]

God created the world with the appearance of age. The universe looks just like it would if it had been created billions of years ago, even though God created it in just six days.

That's why the theory of evolution appears to be true: God created the world in such a way that it appears as if life evolved over billions of years, even though He actually created it all in a six-day period.

 

[superdave5221]

God created the world with the appearance of age. The universe looks just like it would if it had been created billions of years ago, even though God created it in just six days.

That's why the theory of evolution appears to be true: God created the world in such a way that it appears as if life evolved over billions of years, even though He actually created it all in a six-day period.

So you believe that God is deceiving us on purpose? He created all of these "dead animals" in the earth just for show. Kind of like giving you the ability to reason "just for show".

You need to study your bible to discover the nature of God. His nature is not deceptive. And He does nothing without purpose.

 

[AnandaHya]

Romans 12

Behave Like a Christian


9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. 10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; 11 not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; 12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; 13 distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[a] says the Lord. 20 Therefore



“ If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”


21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Romans 14

The Law of Liberty

1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.

“ As I live, says the LORD,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”[d]

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way

 

[AnandaHya]

WE ONLY KNOW IN PART.... where is the love ya'll?

YouTube - The Black Eyed Peas - Where Is The Love?

1 Corinthians 13

The Greatest Gift

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[Mark777]

OK. Explain to me how the Grand Canyon formed in 10,000 years. This should be interesting.

If you go to Creationontheweb.com and search Grand Canyon, you will find information from qualified geologists on how the canyon was formed as the waters of Noah's flood receeded. The organisation is run by qualified scientists who examine the data within a biblical worldview and well as referencing the work of non-believing researchers. I have seen what localised flooding can do to the landscape and it is not intellectual suicide to suggest that the grand canyon was formed after the deluge as massive volumes of water receeded.

 

[superdave5221]

If you go to Creationontheweb.com and search Grand Canyon, you will find information from qualified geologists on how the canyon was formed as the waters of Noah's flood receeded. The organisation is run by qualified scientists who examine the data within a biblical worldview and well as referencing the work of non-believing researchers. I have seen what localised flooding can do to the landscape and it is not intellectual suicide to suggest that the grand canyon was formed after the deluge as massive volumes of water receeded.

That's an interesting theory. What does the evidence say?

To begin with, the rocks in the Grand Canyon are predominately chemical precipitates, for the most part limestone. Limestone forms in shallow, calm seas. Flood waters are not calm. Limestone forms at the rate of about one foot every 1500 years. There are several hundred feet of limestone in the Grand Canyon. Do the math!

Next, the few sandstones that do exist there, (one would expect sandstones from a flood, which are formed from mud, check out the aftermath of flooded basements), exhibit frosting in the individual quartz crystals, or a marring from the friction of individual crystals colliding with each other. There is also evidence of extensive cross bedding. These observations would indicate a wind blown, rather than a water born deposition.

Next, the brachiopod fossils are sorted by different species into layers, older species at lower levels, and newer species at upper layers. Flood waters do not sort fossils. The exact opposite would be seen.

Finally, take a look at the topography of the Colorado river basin. It is an entrenched meander. This is a very old age topography. There is no evidence of collapsing at the tops of the V-shaped valleys which would be in evidence from newly formed depositions, but is consistent with a long term erosion of limestone, which is a hard rock.

Any geologist who sees a flood as the agent behind the formation of the Grand Canyon is either blind to the geologic evidence, or has an agenda.

 

[trust_in_the_name]

So you believe that God is deceiving us on purpose?

Not necessarily, although it's certainly possible. We cannot know why He does what He does.

8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)

He created all of these "dead animals" in the earth just for show.

Not necessarily. He has His own reasons, which are not known to us.

28 Have you not known? Have you not heard? The everlasting God, the Lord, The Creator of the ends of the earth, Neither faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable. (Isaiah 40:28)

Kind of like giving you the ability to reason "just for show".

Hardly. The ability to reason is useful for more things than just figuring out the creation of the world.

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; (Proverbs 3:5)

You need to study your bible to discover the nature of God.

I have studied my Bible. You need to study yours. His ways are past finding out.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33)

His nature is not deceptive. And He does nothing without purpose.

That's simply not true, as the scriptures attest. He does whatever He pleases.

3 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases. (Psalm 115:3)

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)

18 Then Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing on His right hand and His left. 19 And the Lord said, 'Who will persuade Ahab king of Israel to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 20 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, 'I will persuade him.' The Lord said to him, 'In what way?' 21 So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the Lord said, 'You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.' 22 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you." (2 Chronicles 18:18-22)

19 Then Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. 20 And the Lord said, 'Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, 'I will persuade him.' 22 The Lord said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the Lord said, 'You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.' 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you." (1 Kings 22:19-23)

9 And if the prophet is induced to speak anything, I the Lord have induced that prophet, and I will stretch out My hand against him and destroy him from among My people Israel. (Ezekiel 14:9)

11 And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that 'Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.' " (Mark 4:11-12)

42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord's doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes'? (Matthew 21:42)

22 The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. 23 This was the Lord's doing; It is marvelous in our eyes. (Psalm 118:22-23)

37 Who is he who speaks and it comes to pass, When the Lord has not commanded it? 38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That woe and well-being proceed? (Lamentations 3:37-38)

9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:9)

14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. (Revelation 13:14)

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. (Romans 9:18)

24 He takes away the understanding of the chiefs of the people of the earth, And makes them wander in a pathless wilderness. (Job 12:24)

4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day. (Deuteronomy 29:4)

9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9)

24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself; 25 Who frustrates the signs of the babblers, And drives diviners mad; Who turns wise men backward, And makes their knowledge foolishness; (Isaiah 44:24-25)

16 With Him are strength and prudence. The deceived and the deceiver are His. (Job 12:6)

 

[ItinerantLurker]

I have seen what localised flooding can do to the landscape and it is not intellectual suicide to suggest that the grand canyon was formed after the deluge as massive volumes of water receeded.

Really? You see localized flooding sort debris into successive ecosystems or formations such as this:

Care to back up that assertion?




Lurker

 

[ItinerantLurker]

Let me clarify my previous post. Macroevolution is a myth, not microevolution. Darwinianism promotes both, but in particular macro, as in the tree of life. There is no scientific evidence for macroevolution, however there IS scientific evidence for microevolution. Please forgive the typo.

This is a pretty common Creationist error, which does not grow any less wrong the more it is repeated. Terms like "macroevolution" and "microevolution" have technical definitions in science, and if you want to be taken seriously you need to learn what those definitions are.

You don't have to believe in the theory of evolution to understand it, but you do need to understand it in order to criticize it in a way that makes sense. Saying that "macroevolution" is a myth is doing nothing more that signaling to others that you either don't understand what that word means or are rejecting reality.




Lurker

 

[superdave5221]

This is a pretty common Creationist error, which does not grow any less wrong the more it is repeated. Terms like "macroevolution" and "microevolution" have technical definitions in science, and if you want to be taken seriously you need to learn what those definitions are.

You don't have to believe in the theory of evolution to understand it, but you do need to understand it in order to criticize it in a way that makes sense. Saying that "macroevolution" is a myth is doing nothing more that signaling to others that you either don't understand what that word means or are rejecting reality.

Lurker

Macroevolution is evolution on a scale of separated gene pools. Macroevolutionary studies focus on change that occurs at or above the level of species, in contrast with microevolution,...

I don't know what your "technical" definition is, but this is the one in common usage. It conforms very well with my earlier dissertation on "kinds". This is a debate forum, not a peer reviewed technical paper.

As to your other statement about God doing whatever He pleases:

Can God sin?

God cannot do that which is contrary to His nature. As I said, you do not understand His nature.