Is unconditional election biblical?

[notuptome]

If the atonement is universal, so is the salvation. No one atoned for will die lost.

Not if you understand the blood atonement God established in the garden and extended through the temple. The high priest sacrificed a lamb not just for the folks in Jerusalem but across the nation. Only those who believed in the atonement received the benefit of the sacrifice. The sacrifice and atonement was sufficient but only efficacious to those who believed. Christs blood is the perfection of this vicarious atonement that God has established by pattern from the beginning. I'm certain you have read Hebrews so you are not without knowledge.

John 3 is still the passage that is most difficult to reconcile with limited atonement. It just doesn't fit. Not all will be saved but all could be.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[John146]

Ok. What does that change?

You think the blood of Christ is not good enough to save the Whole World and Atone for EVERY sin?

Of course it is.


But it is not applied to unbelievers.


It is also not applied and then later on un-applied. If that is what you are also implying.

That’s what we’ve been saying. Christ died for the whole world that whosoever believes in His blood atonement will be saved. Now let’s get to work and tell the whole world about Jesus to give everyone a chance to be saved and have everlasting life.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Careful its a trap. We cannot know what God has not revealed in His word. God will reveal these things to us in heaven. The question goes to the argument that Gods will cannot be resisted by men. We only have record in Gods word of those who received Gods word and went forth in faith.

Why did Abraham go forth to offer his son Isaac? Why did Abraham leave his people and go out at Gods command? Man has choices everyday.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

But you brought in a hypothetical by saying you were wondering if God went around offering His favor to other ppl before Noah accepted. The Bible never testified to this, and furthermore, Noah was not offered favor, He found it in the eyes of the LORD.

 

[Grandpa]

Not if you understand the blood atonement God established in the garden and extended through the temple. The high priest sacrificed a lamb not just for the folks in Jerusalem but across the nation. Only those who believed in the atonement received the benefit of the sacrifice. The sacrifice and atonement was sufficient but only efficacious to those who believed. Christs blood is the perfection of this vicarious atonement that God has established by pattern from the beginning. I'm certain you have read Hebrews so you are not without knowledge.

John 3 is still the passage that is most difficult to reconcile with limited atonement. It just doesn't fit. Not all will be saved but all could be.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Only those who believed were atoned for.

Those who didn't weren't atoned for.


If you don't receive the benefit then you didn't receive what it is that is beneficial.


From our point of view it is offered to everyone. But the FACT is that only those who it is applied to are the ones who have received it.

 

[Grandpa]

That’s what we’ve been saying. Christ died for the whole world that whosoever believes in His blood atonement will be saved. Now let’s get to work and tell the whole world about Jesus to give everyone a chance to be saved and have everlasting life.

Roger that. I have never argued that.

The only thing I have shown is that Only those who Believe in Christ ACTUALLY Receive the Atonement. Christs sacrifice is only for those who believe.

I think MOST Christians believe that. I don't know why they have such a hard time saying it.

 

[notuptome]

But you brought in a hypothetical by saying you were wondering if God went around offering His favor to other ppl before Noah accepted. The Bible never testified to this, and furthermore, Noah was not offered favor, He found it in the eyes of the LORD.

You are entitled to your opinion on the matter but as I stated God has chosen not to reveal to us what else might have transpired. We do have a universal call for all men to be saved. We have a limited positive response to the call the balance being a negative response. It is universal that all must respond.

We rejoice in those who have responded and plead with those who as yet are in the valley of decision. The fields being white unto harvest and the laborers being few.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[John146]

Roger that. I have never argued that.

The only thing I have shown is that Only those who Believe in Christ ACTUALLY Receive the Atonement. Christs sacrifice is only for those who believe.

I think MOST Christians believe that. I don't know why they have such a hard time saying it.

I think it’s in the wording. The bold statement above should say, “Christ’s sacrifice is only applied TO those who believe.”

 

[Grandpa]

I see you as the one who is in opposition to scripture and the character of God.

Maybe we should discuss this further.

Not if you understand the blood atonement God established in the garden and extended through the temple. The high priest sacrificed a lamb not just for the folks in Jerusalem but across the nation. Only those who believed in the atonement received the benefit of the sacrifice. The sacrifice and atonement was sufficient but only efficacious to those who believed. Christs blood is the perfection of this vicarious atonement that God has established by pattern from the beginning. I'm certain you have read Hebrews so you are not without knowledge.

John 3 is still the passage that is most difficult to reconcile with limited atonement. It just doesn't fit. Not all will be saved but all could be.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I don't know why people always say John 3 is difficult to reconcile with limited atonement. It is John 3 that SHOWS limited atonement.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That limits the atonement to believers, and Christ Himself is the One who said it.

 

[notuptome]

Only those who believed were atoned for.

Those who didn't weren't atoned for.


If you don't receive the benefit then you didn't receive what it is that is beneficial.


From our point of view it is offered to everyone. But the FACT is that only those who it is applied to are the ones who have received it.

Here's the disconnect. Calvinism teaches that those who do not receive were predestined from before their birth into this world to reject the offer of salvation.

God has given His decree. The soul that sinneth shall surely die. All have sinned so all are dead. Those who come to Christ are born again by the grace of God through faith in Gods word. All will hear but not all will respond. They are all without excuse.

Those who reject the atonement of God and choose to rely on their own sense of righteousness will doubtless perish. That does not limit the sufficiency of the blood of Christ. It does not offend the sovereignty of God it confirms the sovereignty of God. Gods character is that He loves each soul He has created even those who reject Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Maybe we should discuss this further.

I don't know why people always say John 3 is difficult to reconcile with limited atonement. It is John 3 that SHOWS limited atonement.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That limits the atonement to believers, and Christ Himself is the One who said it.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The reason for their unbelief is not election not is it predetermined. They have chosen to love sin more than the light of Gods goodness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[fredoheaven]

But He is the savior of the body. What is His body? The church. He takes of of Hos body, the church.

As observed, when the NT in reference to Christ, the capital letter is used as 'Saviour'. The small letter 's' is used and it is well defined in this analogy for Christ loving his own just like the husband and the wife who had already their new relationship began during matrimony. Loving concern is to eventually feed and take care.

 

[Grandpa]

Here's the disconnect. Calvinism teaches that those who do not receive were predestined from before their birth into this world to reject the offer of salvation.

God has given His decree. The soul that sinneth shall surely die. All have sinned so all are dead. Those who come to Christ are born again by the grace of God through faith in Gods word. All will hear but not all will respond. They are all without excuse.

Those who reject the atonement of God and choose to rely on their own sense of righteousness will doubtless perish. That does not limit the sufficiency of the blood of Christ. It does not offend the sovereignty of God it confirms the sovereignty of God. Gods character is that He loves each soul He has created even those who reject Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Either God is Powerful to Save or He isn't.

I personally can attest that God is Powerful to Save.


But if He is waiting for depraved people to somehow will themselves and their understanding to make a decision for Him then He is not powerful to Save. He is as weak as the depraved mind He is waiting for.


But if He reaches down and changes that depraved person and causes them to understand what He has done then He has become Powerful again.


I think the bible shows the latter. And the former is against Scripture and against the Character of God.

 

[fredoheaven]

Universalism is considered heresy.

Are you all Universalists?

Or do you just not understand the implications of what you THINK the bible is saying?

Sorry, I am not. I am a Baptist!

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

As observed, when the NT in reference to Christ, the capital letter is used as 'Saviour'. The small letter 's' is used and it is well defined in this analogy for Christ loving his own just like the husband and the wife who had already their new relationship began during matrimony. Loving concern is to eventually feed and take care.

The analogy was for husbands to love their brides in the same manner the Christ loves His bride. He showed how much He loved her by dying for her.

 

[notuptome]

Either God is Powerful to Save or He isn't.

I personally can attest that God is Powerful to Save.


But if He is waiting for depraved people to somehow will themselves and their understanding to make a decision for Him then He is not powerful to Save. He is as weak as the depraved mind He is waiting for.


But if He reaches down and changes that depraved person and causes them to understand what He has done then He has become Powerful again.


I think the bible shows the latter. And the former is against Scripture and against the Character of God.

This is the feedback loop that you are locked into. Gods will is not circumvented by mans will. Man in Gods image and likeness from creation made a little lower than God Himself is able to submit or resist God in the matter of redemption.

Even depraved people can do good things.

Mt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Election does not save. Man must choose and God has given everyman the ability to make the choice.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[NayborBear]

Do you know why Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord?

He found "favor" because he had no "mixed in" DNA, from the "fallen ones!"
A "pure" pedigree! One might say!

 

[Melach]

Only those who believed were atoned for.

Those who didn't weren't atoned for.


If you don't receive the benefit then you didn't receive what it is that is beneficial.


From our point of view it is offered to everyone. But the FACT is that only those who it is applied to are the ones who have received it.

i like you friend. i love you actually.

you are the most kind-hearted calvinist on here and i really like that. nice to see someone human from that camp. is it because you go to a non-calvinist church so you didnt pick up their robotic training? hahahaha

i am serious i do like you.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

i like you friend. i love you actually.

you are the most kind-hearted calvinist on here and i really like that. nice to see someone human from that camp. is it because you go to a non-calvinist church so you didnt pick up their robotic training? hahahaha

i am serious i do like you.

I go to a non-Calvinist church too. The Pastor knows I am a Calvinist and I am to preach this coming Sunday, good Lord willing.

 

[John146]

He found "favor" because he had no "mixed in" DNA, from the "fallen ones!"
A "pure" pedigree! One might say!

See post #1411

 

[7seasrekeyed]

If the atonement is universal, so is the salvation. No one atoned for will die lost.

not one person has stated atonement is universal

listen to Jesus here:

For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eternal life. John 3:16

everyone seems to be a word that is not understood by some

it says everyone WHO BELIEVES


the only people here saying anything about universalism, which actually is heresy, are the Calvinists who are sadly and too often trying to make false claims stick about what non-Calvinists believe