Does man have a libertarian free will?

[Hevosmies]

Therefore, they must be regenerated, and given spiritual life, prior to this, logically.

1Jn 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.

^The above everyone can say AMEN to and would agree that YUP this is what the verses are saying, FIRST born of God, then love for one another, practicing righteousness, RIGHT?

Well here the story is quickly changed:

1Jn 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

Same thing in CONTEXT as the other places in the epistles of John, everyone who BELIEVES has been born of God. They believe because they are born of God. But this is the one that folks dont like to accept. SAY IT AINT SO JOHN?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Again this boils down to the WHOSEVER WILL passages, where we must ask, WHO IS IT that wills? Who is the whosever? Someone with a stony heart that hates God? Or someone with a fleshly heart given by God by His grace who then WILLINGLY (not a robot here) responds to the Gospel.

ITS NOT AS DIFFICULT as its made out to be. Only problem is that people hate the idea that I cant choose, there is no voting done around here. SURPRISE SURPRISE: God's Kingdom is not a DEMOCRACY.

Right..sometimes I find it amusing that someone quotes John 3:16 as a defense against Reformed theology...

Those who believe receive eternal life. But, what causes the belief? That's the real question. Reformed believers totally agree with the verse, the issue is what causes it.

Every single person who believes receives eternal life...amen.

 

[UnderGrace]

Martin Luther would have taught that faith is a GIFT, not something the person contributes.

It is part and parcel of the benefits of Jesus' atonement, to the elect.

No one expresses true faith outside of the elect, because it is a gift that is imparted by the Holy Spirit. Specifically, it comes with regeneration.

I have no issue with the "instrumental" language, as long as it is understood that regeneration (or being born again) is the cause of faith and repentance, and that it can't be conjured up from a stony heart. The person needs a heart of flesh. Therefore, they must be regenerated, and given spiritual life, prior to this, logically.

In short, all of what you said, or almost all of what you said, is something I would agree with, in the context of regeneration preceding faith. Thus, God is the cause of salvation of his elect.

Faith is not anything we contribute, I have never put faith in those terms.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Mr. UnitedWithChrist I understand what you believe, and I do understand why you have come to this conclusion, I feel like I am offering option that cuts across this whole debate...which is actually based more on how the Reformers viewed the the response of people to the Gospel.

Faith in Christ is not a work. Faith's role in the reception of eternal life is purely instrumental; an organon leptikon (Martin Luther), like the empty hand of a beggar receiving a gift.

It is not an act of the will, neither is it something that can be dredged up... faith is the passive result of being persuaded, convinced and convicted.

Just another remark..you seem to be a friendly person.

Realize that my defense of Reformed theology is prompted by extremely rude anti-Reformed individuals on this forum. There are all kinds of individuals like this with in Christianity, prompted by the likes of Dave Hunt, Jacob Prasch, Keith Thompson, Jesse Morrell, and Leighton Flowers.

I am simply defending the position. I don't expect every Christian to hold the Reformed view. I have held almost-Pelagian views, Arminian views, and "traditional Baptist" (four point Arminians) views during my lifetime. So, I don't claim anyone isn't a Christian if they hold defective theology on this point, although I don't think true Pelagians are saved because I don't think they understand that they have a deceitfully wicked nature, and I don't see a true Christian being deceived to that point.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Faith is not anything we contribute, I have never put faith in those terms.

Cool.

I think Ephesians 2:1-10 is clear on this issue.

 

[UnderGrace]

Cool.

I think Ephesians 2:1-10 is clear on this issue.

To clarify ... saving faith is the instrument... I know your view of Ephesians 2:1-10

 

[Whispered]

Please specify how I misrepresented Reformed theology. I am Reformed, so I know what the teaching is.

God regenerates the sinner, changing their nature, so they freely respond in faith and repentance. It is not a robotic action.

Until then, they reside in the kingdom of darkness and CANNOT make a motion toward God. They MUST be freed. And freedom comes through God moving them out of the realm of darkness into the light.

Decisional regeneration is absurd. Their teaching is that man, with a stony heart, must dredge up faith and repentance from his dead soul in order to gain a heart of flesh.

The predicate in your theology is Total Depravity of the individual whom you charge as a regenerated sinner.

Irresistible Grace is , your words, what is actually the "robotic action" of coming to faith. Because as Irresistible Grace is defined in the TULIP formula wherein it is contained, the sinner, being first Totally Depraved is unable to come to Christ.

Their incapacity being so great as one Totally Depraved, that they are unable to comprehend the Gospel message, nor feel inclined to better their condition.
Ergo, your theology says, God must intercede as He see's fit by His will and free choice predetermined upon whom He would let into His grace, and before the world came to exist, and bring that Totally Depraved sinner into His grace, because the sinner(s) in His choices made for their bring brought into that grace do not possess the free will, choice, capacity to comprehend the Good News, so as to accept God's grace of their own accord.
Furthermore, after the Irresistible Grace of God is an act of God entire, God then in His own actions and still because that Totally Depraved sinner is incapable by God's making that so before the world came to exist, installs into that chosen one, faith in Him.

The human is, by God's design, incapable of finding God and faith in Him, of his own desire.
The calling that sinner feels, per the TULIP formula, is God making that sinner to be in His grace and making that sinner, Totally Depraved sinner, to have faith in Him.
The human has nothing to do with this.

You make threads that repeat the same TULIP ideology exclusive to RT and Calvinism.
By your own free will.
Because if the god of TULIP is what you claim of Him, as you allegedly believe, and again, per TULIP, it would be unnecessary for two reasons.
All within the guidelines of TULIP.
Firstly, no one here would be persuaded to TULIP, Calvinism, Reformed Theology, unless they are already of that belief set due to God's intercession via IG. Therefore the posts do not lead to conversion, cannot. Because of Total Depravity. And as you pointedly note as often as possible, because said free willer sinners have not the free will to do so.
Lastly, if all here were RT, or Calvinists, they know this. So you are in effect speaking to the choir that was made to sing back to you, agree, by God.

 

[Whispered]

Cool.

I think Ephesians 2:1-10 is clear on this issue.

The Book of Romans chapter 2

God's grace was displayed by sending Himself, Emmanuel, to the world.The Book of John chapter 1 14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) 16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.[e] 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God,[f] who is at the Father's side,[g] he has made him known.

The Testimony of John the Baptist
19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” 21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” 22 So they said to him, “Who are you? We need to give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?” 23 He said, “I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, ‘Make straight[h] the way of the Lord,’ as the prophet Isaiah said.”

 

[presidente]

If I have free will, it is not libertarian. Libertarians are too liberal on social issues. The government also has to be involved to st the ground rules and enforce contracts to make the economy work.

 

[garee]

The predicate in your theology is Total Depravity of the individual whom you charge as a regenerated sinner.

Irresistible Grace is , your words, what is actually the "robotic action" of coming to faith. Because as Irresistible Grace is defined in the TULIP formula wherein it is contained, the sinner, being first Totally Depraved is unable to come to Christ.

I would call it Irresistible Love.

Total Depravity, or no faith that exclusively comes from hearing God not seen would seem to represent the need of a froward nation also called the evil generation, as those who seek after the things seen, the temporal, (no faith) rather than the things of faith, the unseen eternal.

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Makes me wonder why he commands us to not murmur ? Like Adam and Eves robotic action" as creatures created propgrammed to do the will of another .They ate. . faith as the glory of the Lord departed .

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13

Do all things without murmurings and disputings:Philippians 2:14

 

[preacher4truth]

The predicate...

All you've shown is that you don't know what Total Depravity or Irresistible Grace really mean.

 

[preacher4truth]

It's the common claim of free-willers....if Reformed theology is correct, then God forces his will on those who are saved.

It's funny how these reject the truths of Scripture when Scripture is clear that even post conversion, God causes us to work and to will for his good pleasure...Philippians 2:11-13. I don't see anyone griping about that.

Yet.

But somehow pre-conversion, those lost in sin "exercised" their free will to do what God says is impossible to do; John 6&c.

Um. No.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

It's funny how these reject the truths of Scripture when Scripture is clear that even post conversion, God causes us to work and to will for his good pleasure...Philippians 2:11-13. I don't see anyone griping about that.

Yet.

But somehow pre-conversion, those lost in sin "exercised" their free will to do what God says is impossible to do; John 6&c.

Um. No.

I'm stating the free-willer position..I am Reformed.

 

[Nehemiah6]

It's the common claim of free-willers....if Reformed theology is correct, then God forces his will on those who are saved.

That too is PATENTLY FALSE. God compels no one to be saved. However it is the supernatural power of the Word of God (the Gospel) accompanied by the supernatural convicting and convincing of the Holy Spirit which bring sinners to the Savior.

But in the end everyone (including Calvinists) make a CONSCIOUS DECISION to either obey the Gospel or disobey it. Read and study Acts 2 if you want Bible truth and not man-made theology.

 

[preacher4truth]

I'm stating the free-willer position..I am Reformed.

I already got that bro. Perhaps you misunderstood my post and its intent?

 

[preacher4truth]

God compels no one to be saved.

That's utterly false.

John 6:44 disproves you.

If God doesn't compel by his Spirit, none would be saved.

Do you still call the Reformed lost and on their way to hell as you did in the past?

Your decisional regeneration heresy came into the church some 150 plus years back, it's not historical Christianity, nor is it Biblical Christianity.

 

[Whispered]

I would call it Irresistible Love.

Total Depravity, or no faith that exclusively comes from hearing God not seen would seem to represent the need of a froward nation also called the evil generation, as those who seek after the things seen, the temporal, (no faith) rather than the things of faith, the unseen eternal.

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Makes me wonder why he commands us to not murmur ? Like Adam and Eves robotic action" as creatures created propgrammed to do the will of another .They ate. . faith as the glory of the Lord departed .

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13

Do all things without murmurings and disputings:Philippians 2:14

Irresistible love?
I would say if Love was at all in the equation of TULIP or RT, Calvinism, those traditions of man would not have first made their god a moral monster that, prior to creating all things, made a list of people whom he'd force into his grace because he first made them Totally Depraved unable to enter his grace through faith alone.
All this predicated on the determinism, by the way.

Then TULIP's god created the Heavens and the Earth, and on as it goes in Genesis. Knowing, that in order for those names in that book of life to come to fruition according to his plan, he would have to insure Eve sinned, and then Adam. And then he'd have to let Adam take the fall for his action of eating forbidden fruit TULIP's god planted so as to make it available to eat. Thereby violating the first law of god.
Thou shalt not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
But TULIP's god being all knowing, knew that would happen. Had to. Otherwise, the names on the list of his predetermined pre-selected list would mean nothing.

TULIP is all its god all the time. Because its god made man in its image and likeness.....TOTALLY DEPRAVED!
As planned.

That's why TULIP is the antithesis of the actual God.

Not everyone who says to me , Lord, Lord....False prophets, false teachers, will find they are not in the Kingdom.
And Calvin, Piper, MacArthur, who shows he believes what he preaches as one Totally Depraved who, from the pulpit, dedicates entire sermons to attacking other preachers not of his beliefs.

Sound familiar?
Low hanging fruit. Upon the pastors and disciples of TULIP alike.


God have mercy.
Can you imagine living a God given life....having no choice?

 

[notuptome]

That kind of Calvinism is an extreme. I had a professor of world religions and he was Reformed. He was on a year Sabbatical from being a missionary in Malaysia. He brought many Muslims and head hunters to the Lord. The head hunters would take out their shrunken skulls, and replacement them with a Bible in their language. He said, they called it their "power."

He said as a Reformed person, he knew God had called him to missionary work. I said, what do you think about the people that aren't saved. He said he lets God deal with them, he just his best in prayer and witness to show them who God is. But, he also said his mom came from that extremist Calvinist background. She would do prayer vigils and be on her knees for days, not walking to get around the house. She said she didn't know she was saved, no matter how much he showed her in the Bible. He was very sad for her, and that he couldn't show her the truth, in the Bible she believed in.

Fortunately, I am not an extremist, I know God loves me, and has chosen me as his own. I used to wonder if I was saved as an acting Arminian, because if I sinned, then I could lose my salvation. So my actions were more important than God's actions and truths. Realizing God had chosen me, gave me complete peace of mind. I never doubted God was with me, but too many warnings about how I was "possibly" going to lose my salvation, kept me a battered, and sad Christian. So glad to know my name is written in the Lamb's book of Life.

"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession,that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy." 1 Peter 2:9-10

I see no reason to interpret the passage in 1 Peter as having anything to do with election but pointing to the result of salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

That's utterly false.

John 6:44 disproves you.

If God doesn't compel by his Spirit, none would be saved.

Do you still call the Reformed lost and on their way to hell as you did in the past?

Your decisional regeneration heresy came into the church some 150 plus years back, it's not historical Christianity, nor is it Biblical Christianity.

Not in any contextual interpretation. You are interpreting the passage to support a preconceived position not allowing the passage to illustrate the true position.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Nehemiah6]

If God doesn't compel by his Spirit, none would be saved.

Drawing men to Christ is NOT compulsion. If God were to compel men to be saved all of Israel -- the ELECT NATION OF GOD -- would have been saved. So we have more of your false theology because you do not believe the Bible.

Now take note from Scripture that God and Christ do not compel men to be saved:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Mt 23:37)

Did the Jews resist the Holy Spirit? Absolutely. This is one verse and there are many others. IRRESISTIBLE GRACE IS A MAN-MADE MYTH.