Is unconditional election biblical?

[notuptome]

Well of course ALL men have faith in something! Some have faith in themselves to attain Salvation through various religions, all of which rely on some type of works THEY do, some have faith that there is nothing to have faith in. No God. They have faith that this life is all there is.

So obviously, this discussion is about "saving faith" in Jesus Christ. NOT all men have been gifted with that faith.

You no doubt have received saving faith just like all others who are saved by grace through faith. The issue becomes did God gift you with saving faith or did you receive it by hearing Gods word? Does God offer salvation to every man? Is there any soul that God will refuse to save?

Many men will refuse to be saved. None will ever be saved against their will.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PennEd]

You no doubt have received saving faith just like all others who are saved by grace through faith. The issue becomes did God gift you with saving faith or did you receive it by hearing Gods word?

Semantics. I heard the Word and that is what activated my faith. No disagreement on that.

But that is at least one level up from WHY I believed the Word when I heard it. Can't seem to get an answer from you, or others for that matter.

I fully understand you heard and believe the Word. That the Word is in fact from God. But you have been unable, or unwilling, to say WHY YOU BELIEVE IT.

Others hear the exact same Word yet DON'T believe. You are either saying you are smarter and wiser than them, or that God gave you that faith to believe it.

WHERE does YOUR faith come from Roger? PLEASE>>>> DON'T say from hearing the Word again. If that were true, and every man had saving faith, then EVERY man who heard the Word would believe and be saved. WHY DO YOU BELIEVE?

 

[notuptome]

Semantics. I heard the Word and that is what activated my faith. No disagreement on that.

But that is at least one level up from WHY I believed the Word when I heard it. Can't seem to get an answer from you, or others for that matter.

I fully understand you heard and believe the Word. That the Word is in fact from God. But you have been unable, or unwilling, to say WHY YOU BELIEVE IT.

Others hear the exact same Word yet DON'T believe. You are either saying you are smarter and wiser than them, or that God gave you that faith to believe it.

WHERE does YOUR faith come from Roger? PLEASE>>>> DON'T say from hearing the Word again. If that were true, and every man had saving faith, then EVERY man who heard the Word would believe and be saved. WHY DO YOU BELIEVE?

Jesus said it is a heart matter. John 3:18-20. Was I less willing to rely upon my own righteousness? Probably not but I did face my sin and accept that I was guilty and deserved condemnation. There is no more explanation for that than why I elect coffee over tea. Unless you want to represent that tea drinkers are elect to tea drinking?

God does not hold me responsible for what others believe or disbelieve. God expects me to be a witness of what Christ has done for me. Gods word accomplishes that to which He has purposed it. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. Some now unto repentance and eternal life the rest at judgment unto eternal condemnation.

Are you telling me you had no choice to believe the word of God?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

Jesus said it is a heart matter. John 3:18-20. Was I less willing to rely upon my own righteousness? Probably not but I did face my sin and accept that I was guilty and deserved condemnation. There is no more explanation for that than why I elect coffee over tea. Unless you want to represent that tea drinkers are elect to tea drinking?

God does not hold me responsible for what others believe or disbelieve. God expects me to be a witness of what Christ has done for me. Gods word accomplishes that to which He has purposed it. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. Some now unto repentance and eternal life the rest at judgment unto eternal condemnation.

Are you telling me you had no choice to believe the word of God?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

When he empowers us then we have the power to choice .

He gives us the power of faith working in us enabling us to believe. It is not of our own earthen bodies of death lest any man falsely boast.

He who is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires For he performs that which he appoints to us. .(Job 23)

He is not elected by us . He choose us His masterpiece from the foundation of the world

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The number of those elected is. As many as. Not one more or one less.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 

[fredoheaven]

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Amen! I believe because the Bible tells me so.

Thanks

 

[fredoheaven]

I'm sorry. I don't understand how you can think this is an answer. It is circular reasoning.

Scripture says it's Truth. And you believe it is Truth. But what makes you believe it is Truth?

WHY, do you believe it is Truth?

I see shades of doubt...

 

[fredoheaven]

When he empowers us then we have the power to choice .

He gives us the power of faith working in us enabling us to believe. It is not of our own earthen bodies of death lest any man falsely boast.

He who is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires For he performs that which he appoints to us. .(Job 23)

He is not elected by us . He choose us His masterpiece from the foundation of the world

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The number of those elected is. As many as. Not one more or one less.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

The empowerment is after conversion.

 

[garee]

The empowerment is after conversion.

The empowerment is the working power of conversion and after. One continuing work . Our first love. . . experiencing. . believing God, as a labor of his love. The first works we return that works in us when we are moved to repent . Do the first work . . .believe.

God must do the first works giving us ears to hear, a new heart to believe and a spirit that will never die. Then we can understand and have the wisdom to seek after him.

We are not born with his understanding needed to seek after Him . A man must be born again from above

There is none that "understandeth", there is none that "seeketh" after God.(Roman 3:11

 

[fredoheaven]

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

The verse tells us more of after receiving, believing then we are given power..."Received.."

 

[fredoheaven]

The empowerment is the working power of conversion and after. One continuing work . Our first love. . . experiencing. . believing God, as a labor of his love. The first works we return that works in us when we are moved to repent . Do the first work . . .believe.

God must do the first works giving us ears to hear, a new heart to believe and a spirit that will never die. Then we can understand and have the wisdom to seek after him.

We are not born with his understanding needed to seek after Him . A man must be born again from above

There is none that "understandeth", there is none that "seeketh" after God.(Roman 3:11

The work of the Holy Spirit is to convict, lead or guide in all the truth and we must respond by faith.

Ephesians 1:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

The verse tells us more of after receiving, believing then we are given power..."Received.."

No my friend it does not. Verse 13 qualifies those who received Him in verse 12.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.[John 1]

Now, to those who received Him, to them He gave the right to become the children of God, where they...

1) Those who were born of the will of the Flesh?

No.

2) Those who were born of the will of man?

No.

3) Those who were born of God?

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

Those who received Him, those who He gave the right to become the children of God were born of Him. The birth(regeneration) precedes anything they did in receiving Him. Now, I see regeneration and faith happen simultaneously.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

The work of the Holy Spirit is to convict, lead or guide in all the truth and we must respond by faith.

Ephesians 1:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

And even faith is a gift of God my friend. No one possesses faith in God in an unregenerate state.

 

[fredoheaven]

We are not born with his understanding needed to seek after Him . A man must be born again from above

There is none that "understandeth", there is none that "seeketh" after God.(Roman 3:11

Equally jews and gentiles are sinners, there's none righteous, no not one. But the provision is all there, its Christ yet only those who place their faith on Christ have his righteousness.

Romans 3:22-26 King James Version (KJV)
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[fredoheaven]

No my friend it does not. Verse 13 qualifies those who received Him in verse 12.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.[John 1]

Now, to those who received Him, to them He gave the right to become the children of God, where they...

1) Those who were born of the will of the Flesh?

No.

2) Those who were born of the will of man?

No.

3) Those who were born of God?

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

Those who received Him, those who He gave the right to become the children of God were born of Him. The birth(regeneration) precedes anything they did in receiving Him. Now, I see regeneration and faith happen simultaneously.

Umm, and how are they born of God?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Umm, and how are they born of God?

Via the Holy Spirit.

 

[fredoheaven]

Via the Holy Spirit.

And how the Holy Spirit works in unregenerate estate of man?

 

[fredoheaven]

And even faith is a gift of God my friend. No one possesses faith in God in an unregenerate state.

What is clear in the Bible of this gift is found in

Romans 6:23 King James Version (KJV)
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

And how the Holy Spirit works in unregenerate estate of man?

Via the word of course. If you expect me to say otherwise, you are expecting the wrong thing.

However, the Spirit must accompany the word. For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.[1 Cor. 1:18] And also But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.[1 Cor. 2:14] We can witness to lost ppl all day long and if the Spirit does not move upon them to illumine their minds, open their eyes and heart, they will never believe. Why do I say that? in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.[2 Cor. 4:4] You guys and gals think all a man needs is a little info to be saved. Not so. They need to be born again, to have their eyes opened. As the Christ told Nicodemus “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”[John 3:3] The new birth precedes anything good coming from a fallen man. And truly believing the gospel is a good thing, no?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

What is clear in the Bible of this gift is found in

Romans 6:23 King James Version (KJV)
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Well, faith is a fruit of the Spirit per Gal. 5:22. So, no unregenerate person has the Spirit residing in him. The very moment one has faith, they are justified, and we are justified by faith per Rom. 5:1.

 

[fredoheaven]

Well, faith is a fruit of the Spirit per Gal. 5:22. So, no unregenerate person has the Spirit residing in him. The very moment one has faith, they are justified, and we are justified by faith per Rom. 5:1.

Umm, so no unregenerate person has the fruit of the Holy Spirit then which is true so that what God is offering to the unregenerate person is not the gift of faith but the gift of eternal life and that is very clear. In Romans 5, this gift prior to conversion, to the unregenerate estate of man is called the 'gift of righteousness

Romans 5:12-21 King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.