Is total depravity (radical corruption) a biblical teaching?

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Is the doctrine of total depravity (radical corruption) biblical?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 68.2%
  • No

    Votes: 7 31.8%
  • Not sure

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    22

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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#61
So I'm guessing you do not believe in the preservation of the saints? Or are you saying the lost is still saved?
TULIP is a package deal in Calvinism and those Denominations under the banner of Reformed Theology that ascribe to TULIP. It's an all or nothing type thing.

While Perseverance of the Saints as Calvinism defines the last of the five cardinal points of TULIP reads as: Perseverance of the Saints = Since God is sovereign and His will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with Himself will continue in faith until the end. They cannot be eternally lost.
While the other 4 cardinal points of TULIP must all apply in line with one another so as to arrive at "P". So that being the case, no, perseverance of the saints in TULIP is not like that which is in the Gospel message.

As for non-Calvinists and non-RT that hold to TULIP, we are eternally saved and cannot fall from God's salvation. We can backslide, but we can never undo what the Saving grace of God has done to regenerate us
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#62
There is saved people in both camps, many people that are Calvinist now used to be in the other camp, it takes some people years to see these truths and embrace them, others i believe remain Arminians in this life and on Judgment day find out they were wrong, they find out they were preaching and establishing a corrupted faith, that is filled with holes that was half good, half wicked.

Obviously this means, that alot of there ministry is burned up, this is a serious thing and they also find out that they caused alot of damage to God's people and his Kingdom. This is a serious issue.

In short there is unsaved people on both sides and God's Will is to bring his elect to the fullness of the faith, this process can take a long time, some i believe just dont get there in this life.
But this is only your opinion from your presupposition that your view is 100% correct. You believe your right and the opponents believe they are right. Your side could just as easily be the ones to find out they was wrong. This debate isn't clear as night or day. Both sides view the same scripture and see it differently in interpretation.

So technically only God knows and more than likely both sides are not 100% accurate.

Maybe we should live into that more. Debate is good but bashing and separating is bad on this issue. I could debate my view all day but would never suggest the opposition in here on this thread isnt saved. I just do not see the theological differences to be devastating. Both views technically will not be known completely until we die or Christ returns. So we might as well admit that.

Obviously there are some who probably do not see their opponents as saved but I believe Protestants have been working together for centuries and many people have been saved through the denominations united on the simple Gospel.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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#63
This is atleast a better explanation than those who say we are completely guided by God. I believe in total free will while you believe partial. But if both are of the elect and hear the same voice then still why do they contradict?
Because we arrive at the same result(salvation) differently. We place regeneration at the forefront and that is what saves us. The view you and your follower believers hold to is that once they believe, they are regenerated. You have the effect before the cause.

What causes our salvation is our regeneration via the Holy Spirit, and that is what causes us to believe. I do not hold to a partial free will my friend. Our wills are bound to either sin and Satan or righteousness and the Christ. So even in Christ, our will is not free. it is bound to Him who saved us. :)

Look at the most sung song in all of our churches. It's the most Calvinistic song I know of...

Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.
’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed!

Notice line four in the first stanza. John Newton wrote "Was blind, but now I see." The Christ told Nicodemus in John 3:3 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John Newton knew what he was writing when he wrote this. He knew that before anyone could truly see, being born again(regenerated) had to take place. But for it to be worded according to your belief, they would see and then after seeing, they are saved. That's more of the effect before the cause theology. No one can see the kingdom unless they are born again. Its impossible to do it according to the Christ.

The second stanza is pretty self-explanatory. ['I]'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,[/I] the heart is desperately wicked[Jer. 17:9] and unable to will itself to fear. That is why John Newton worded it that way. Grace taught his(and our's) heart to fear God. Then the hour I first believed grace did appear. Bingo! All this happens at once.

Someone witnesses to a lost person. Tells them about the gospel of the Christ.
As they are witnessing to them, the Spirit comes in and does a supernatural work that only He can do. He opens their eyes to see[John 3:3, 3:5, & 3:8]unstops their ears so they now have ears to hear with, open their hearts[Acts 16:14](other places it talks of giving a new heart and spirit{Ezekiel 11:19 & 36:26}) to receive the word which is able to save them[James 1:21]and they are saved. He does all this so that they can now believe in Him. :)
 
Apr 12, 2019
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#65
But this is only your opinion from your presupposition that your view is 100% correct. You believe your right and the opponents believe they are right. Your side could just as easily be the ones to find out they was wrong. This debate isn't clear as night or day. Both sides view the same scripture and see it differently in interpretation.

So technically only God knows and more than likely both sides are not 100% accurate.

Maybe we should live into that more. Debate is good but bashing and separating is bad on this issue. I could debate my view all day but would never suggest the opposition in here on this thread isnt saved. I just do not see the theological differences to be devastating. Both views technically will not be known completely until we die or Christ returns. So we might as well admit that.

Obviously there are some who probably do not see their opponents as saved but I believe Protestants have been working together for centuries and many people have been saved through the denominations united on the simple Gospel.
I would agree, that, it is a presupposition, because God is a God of truth, that's who He is, ofcourse if im wrong, there will be serious repercussions, they can't both be true, so one is false, one is right, or has not God given us the faith? it talks about it in Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; it also talks about the faith in other places like Timothy that the faith is something KNOWN, passed on ETC.. etc. Not sure who your talking to about unsaved people, i believe there is unsaved and saved people on both sides.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,862
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#66
  1. Should we?
    Is that what Total Depravity says of one who is first believed to be Totally Depraved. Totally incapable of understanding the Gospel until God puts that person into his grace through the act of Irresistible Grace?
There are Canon's that apply in Calvinism and that give it its "shape" as a Doctrinal construct.
12.Assurance of their eternal and unchangeable election to salvation is given to the chosen in due time, though by various stages and in differing measure. Such assurance comes not by inquisitive searching into the hidden and deep things of God, but by noticing within themselves, with spiritual joy and holy delight, the unmistakable fruits of election pointed out in God’s Word—such as a true faith in Christ, a childlike fear of God, a godly sorrow for their sins, a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and so on.​
13. In their awareness and assurance of this election, God’s children daily find greater cause to humble themselves before God, to adore the fathomless depth of God’s mercies, to cleanse themselves, and to give fervent love in return to the One who first so greatly loved them. This is far from saying that this teaching concerning election, and reflection upon it, make God’s children lax in observing his commandments or carnally self-assured. By God’s just judgment this does usually happen to those who casually take for granted the grace of election or engage in idle and brazen talk about it but are unwilling to walk in the ways of the chosen.​
A reminder of what Total Depravity means in TULIP:
Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.
Bible Responses

Ezekiel 18:19-23—“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself…. ‘Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?’ says the Lord GOD, ‘and not that he should turn from his ways and live?’”

Ezekiel 28:15—“You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.”

Psalm 106:37-38—“They even sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons, and shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters.”

Zechariah 12:1—“Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.”

Matthew 18:2-3—“Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.’”

Matthew 19:14—“But Jesus said, ‘Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.’”

Romans 7:9—“I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died.”

Jumping ahead a bit to answer your question and to the "I" of TULIP.

Irresistible Grace = God’s saving grace is applied to those whom He has determined to save (the elect), overcoming their resistance to the call of the Gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved (even against his will if necessary). This purposeful influence of God’s Holy Spirit, Who creates faith within the individual, cannot be resisted.
Bible Responses

Deuteronomy 30:19—“I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life.”


Joshua 24:15—“Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”


Luke 7:30—“But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.”


John 12:42-43—“Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.”


Acts 7:51—“You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”


Acts 13:46—“Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, ‘It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.’”



Which is why you don't see Calvinists Proselytizing. But you do see them and those who ascribe to TULIP, openly telling non-Calvinists, and non-Reformed who embrace TULIP's formula, that we are not the elect. Particularly obvious in that message is that which calls the meaning behind free will, free choice, garbage.


If you read the Canon of Dort link you'll see that not even Calvinists or TULIP faithful are able to "know" they are the elect. "Assurance of their eternal and unchangeable election to salvation is given to the chosen in due time, though by various stages and in differing measure."
That is excerpted again from Article 12 of the Canon of Dort.
The rest of Article 12 is omitted so as to point out that a Calvinist does not immediately know they are of the Elect. But the contradiction in Calvinism's Article 12 to that point is this. When you read that first part of Article 12 and then the rest of the article, you may realize that the Article is actually making what is an arbitrary factor something that Dort proclaimed to be a reasoned proof sustaining the Calvinist Doctrine itself.

Calvinism claims a person is Totally Depraved, unable to comprehend the Gospel unless or until God intercedes, through Irresistible Grace due to that person
  • Should we?
    Is that what Total Depravity says of one who is first believed to be Totally Depraved. Totally incapable of understanding the Gospel until God puts that person into his grace through the act of Irresistible Grace?

Well that was point. In that theology if they believe we are also saved then that makes us the elect also. But this poses a problem. Why do we contradict if it is God who caused us to hear and understand.

I was just curious if they understood where their theology leads. Basically all opposing denominations would be seen as false or non elect. Because God is not the God of contradiction.

In my theology it is more graceful as I believe the TULIP is not correct but view it in light of this verse

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 New International Version (NIV)
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

I believe the TULIP is the poor theological material used on the foundation of Christ. Aka the hay or straw. It will be strictly burnt up but the builder will suffer loss and yet will be saved.
 
Apr 12, 2019
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#68

Well that was point. In that theology if they believe we are also saved then that makes us the elect also. But this poses a problem. Why do we contradict if it is God who caused us to hear and understand.

I was just curious if they understood where their theology leads. Basically all opposing denominations would be seen as false or non elect. Because God is not the God of contradiction.

In my theology it is more graceful as I believe the TULIP is not correct but view it in light of this verse

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 New International Version (NIV)
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

I believe the TULIP is the poor theological material used on the foundation of Christ. Aka the hay or straw. It will be strictly burnt up but the builder will suffer loss and yet will be saved.
Well the foundation is Jesus Christ, but who Jesus Christ IS and His word and Doctrine go together, that is the foundation its talking about. Jesus Christ, his doctrine, the faith, his words etc.. the gospel..
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#69
I would agree, that, it is a presupposition, because God is a God of truth, that's who He is, ofcourse if im wrong, there will be serious repercussions, they can't both be true, so one is false, one is right, or has not God given us the faith? it talks about it in Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; it also talks about the faith in other places like Timothy that the faith is something KNOWN, passed on ETC.. etc. Not sure who your talking to about unsaved people, i believe there is unsaved and saved people on both sides.
So if there is one faith then why so many denominations and even great theologians throughout history disagree on parts of theology.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,862
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#70
Well the foundation is Jesus Christ, but who Jesus Christ IS and His word and Doctrine go together, that is the foundation its talking about. Jesus Christ, his doctrine, the faith, his words etc.. the gospel..
The foundation is the simple Gospel. The works built atop it are mans interpretations.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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#71
A goat wouldn't be saved. Correct?
Correct. Even the non-Reformed believe the lost are reckoned as goats. It calls them that in Matthew 25. We arrive at our conclusions differently, but both consider goats to be lost.
 
Apr 12, 2019
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#72
The foundation is the simple Gospel. The works built atop it are mans interpretations.
well i agree brother, but this is IMPORTANT: the foundation is Jesus Christ and yes the gospel, but that gospel is not SIMPLE, it can be expanded in its theology, it can also be very simply given.
 
Apr 12, 2019
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#73
So if there is one faith then why so many denominations and even great theologians throughout history disagree on parts of theology.
They don't, there is a big camp called Arminianism and a big camp called Calvinism. These two systems are in opposition to each other in big major ways.

There is minor stuff that people disagree on, but these are really the two big things, thats it.

BTW, if you want to hear a solid calvinistic preacher i recommend, John Macarthur or John Piper to start with.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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#74
Because we arrive at the same result(salvation) differently. We place regeneration at the forefront and that is what saves us. The view you and your follower believers hold to is that once they believe, they are regenerated. You have the effect before the cause.

What causes our salvation is our regeneration via the Holy Spirit, and that is what causes us to believe. I do not hold to a partial free will my friend. Our wills are bound to either sin and Satan or righteousness and the Christ. So even in Christ, our will is not free. it is bound to Him who saved us. :)

Look at the most sung song in all of our churches. It's the most Calvinistic song I know of...

Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.
’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed!

Notice line four in the first stanza. John Newton wrote "Was blind, but now I see." The Christ told Nicodemus in John 3:3 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John Newton knew what he was writing when he wrote this. He knew that before anyone could truly see, being born again(regenerated) had to take place. But for it to be worded according to your belief, they would see and then after seeing, they are saved. That's more of the effect before the cause theology. No one can see the kingdom unless they are born again. Its impossible to do it according to the Christ.

The second stanza is pretty self-explanatory. ['I]'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,[/I] the heart is desperately wicked[Jer. 17:9] and unable to will itself to fear. That is why John Newton worded it that way. Grace taught his(and our's) heart to fear God. Then the hour I first believed grace did appear. Bingo! All this happens at once.

Someone witnesses to a lost person. Tells them about the gospel of the Christ.
As they are witnessing to them, the Spirit comes in and does a supernatural work that only He can do. He opens their eyes to see[John 3:3, 3:5, & 3:8]unstops their ears so they now have ears to hear with, open their hearts[Acts 16:14](other places it talks of giving a new heart and spirit{Ezekiel 11:19 & 36:26}) to receive the word which is able to save them[James 1:21]and they are saved. He does all this so that they can now believe in Him. :)
@Roughsoul1991 Did you miss this post my friend? It's post # 63. :)
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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#75
So if there is one faith then why so many denominations and even great theologians throughout history disagree on parts of theology.
In my view, Denominationalism has fractured the simple Gospel truth. Have you ever searched out the synonyms that relate to Denominational? = relating to or according to the principles of a particular religious denomination.
They do not convey a positive.
synonyms:
factional · schismatic · cliquish · clannish · partisan · parti pris · doctrinaire · dogmatic · extreme · fanatical · rigid · inflexible · bigoted · hidebound · narrow-minded
 
Oct 25, 2018
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#76
This is atleast a better explanation than those who say we are completely guided by God. I believe in total free will while you believe partial. But if both are of the elect and hear the same voice then still why do they contradict?
You said you believe in a total free will. Let's ponder on God's free will for a moment. You quote 2 Peter 3:9 where it says that God is not willing any should perish, but all come to repentance. When I study I do my level best to study with His attributes in mind. Let's look at His immutability. God is never changing. That is why He told Moses to tell them(Egyptians) "I AM WHO I AM sent you."[Exodus 3:14] And He is the same yesterday, today and forever[Hebrews 13:8].

So, God loves all mankind w/o exception. On the day of judgment, those who stand condemned and the Christ says ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’[Matthew 7:23] Will He....

Love them who He punishes with an everlasting punishment?

Or...

Will He then go from loving them to hating them?

In either scenario, you are confronted with a conundrum. He either loves them who are vessels of wrath, as these are the ones punished in Romans 9:22, and that is a clear contradiction of Paul's writing.

Or...

He goes from loving them to hating them, as He will never punish those He loves, as that would violate His very nature.

So which is it?

He loves those He punishes in hell?

Or...

He goes from being immutable to mutable and goes from loving them to hating them.


You've got a huge problem in your theology here and I exposed it mightily.
 
Apr 12, 2019
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#77
I think the problem with alot of people not willing to believe in election is because of John 3:16, they unrightly divide the word of truth, they think that John 3:16 is preaching a UNIVERSAL SAVING LOVE OF GOD and hence reject Calvinism, they do this on the basis of a poor study and then they oppose texts like Romans 9 and others in the bible.

John 3:16 says this “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. "

So we see in this text, God's love.....Ok sure, so we learn here that God has manifested his love to the entire world, aka every tribe, nation etc... not just Israel... So does that contradict Romans 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

No because, obviously, God has an elected people out of the world he is saving, the believing/repenting are those ones, as it says in John 3:16. God being LOVING does not mean that LOVE cant be particular in nature, as the bible points out to us throughout the OT and NT.

Also we see God's Sovereignty in Salvation prior to John 3:16 with Him the Spirit birthing people into His own kingdom prior to John 3:16, in John 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

People often miss the whole teaching of a passage and cling to verses, this is how false doctrine is often propagated, THIS is NOT how the bible is meant to be taught or studied, there was NO verses in the original text but passages where read and taught together in harmony.
 

Whispered

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Aug 17, 2019
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#78
This is atleast a better explanation than those who say we are completely guided by God. I believe in total free will while you believe partial. But if both are of the elect and hear the same voice then still why do they contradict?
Good question.
16 And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." The Book of Genesis chapter 2

Adding: Don't forget the Book of Deuteronomy chapter 30 verses 19 through 20. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed; 20 to love Jehovah thy God, to obey his voice, and to cleave unto him; for [c]he is thy life, and the length of thy days; that thou mayest dwell in the land which Jehovah sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

If we have no free will choice, that would be cruel for God to tell us to choose life when He made us without the will to do just that.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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#79
This is atleast a better explanation than those who say we are completely guided by God. I believe in total free will while you believe partial. But if both are of the elect and hear the same voice then still why do they contradict?
My last post responding to this post of yours, I mentioned looking at God's free(sovereign) will and I think I did address it somewhat, but I did go off on a tangent somewhat, and for that, I apologize. But I think you got the point I was trying to make, or I hope you did. You probably won't agree with it, but hopefully you can at least see the point. Soooooo...on to God's free(sovereign) will....

We know that God is One Being consisting of three Persons, who are co-equal and co-eternal. They are in complete agreement at all times, and there is no schism at all. So, whatever the Father wants, so does the Son and Spirit. Now, let's look at their one will...

The Christ said something very solemn “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work."[John 4:34] So we can see that the Christ's will was in lockstep with His Father's will. He was not here on earth to go rogue on Him, but to fulfill His Father's will. Now, let's look at a place or two where we see Him(the Christ) telling His disciples what the Father's will is. In Matthew 18 we see Him telling them 12 “What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? 13 If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. 14 So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish." Here He plainly tells them that God(the Father) was not willing any sheep perish. Notice that not one word was mentioned regarding the goats. They were right where they were because He had justly left them in their fallen state and sins. But He was not willing these sheep die lost. Also notice that the Christ mentioned that the Shepherd did not wait for the sheep to return of their own volition, but He was actively persuing them, and when He found them, He did not beat them back into the fold, but carried them on His shoulders and placed them back into the fold. So, when God calls His sheep, He does not stand like a father on the porch yelling to his children to come home after being out playing all day, but He goes out after them and finds them, place them upon Himself and brings them back. That is why we teach irresistible grace(effectual calling) as He effectually calls(draws) them.

Then in John 6 He said 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” Again, the Christ did not go rogue on His Father whilst here on earth, but came to do the will of the One who sent Him. He plainly told them that the Father's will was all those He gave the Son, none of them would die lost. Not one. In fact, He goes on to say that He will raise them up on the last day(read Romans 8:28-30 and you will see that glorification is the culmination of those who were foreknown, predestined, called, and also justified, so this agrees with Matthew 18:12-14 and John 6:37-44) and for Him to raise them up on the last day is to be glorified. Again, we see the Father's will and the Son's will in complete agreement with each other. Their will is that those the Son came to redeem, was that they would not be one of them lost on the day of judgment.

That is why 2 Peter 3:9 harmonizes with particular redemption/limited atonement. If God is not willing any would die lost, and they died lost, then their will for His sheep has been thwarted.

When you see 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance and how it harmonizes with Matthew 18:12-14 12 "What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? 13 If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. 14 So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish." So, God is not willing any of His sheep perish. In fact, He is so not willing one perish, He sent His son to procure their salvation for them by dying on the cross and raising from the dead three days later. :)
 

Whispered

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Aug 17, 2019
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#80
And yet all three of you are RT /Calvinist/TULIP defenders. And P4T has a signature style much like your own, promoting RT/Calvinism.
While UWC added this to their signature:Warning: I am not entertained by the weak, emasculated god of free-willers, who cannot accomplish his purposes.
And P4T has this message added on for the non's among us.
Plagiarus The (not so) Great
To many it isn't "Jesus Saves!" it's "Choosing Saves!"

I think it was 7, though I may be in error, who mentioned in a thread not long ago about posting styles making someone's remarks appear to be also a member with a similar posting style.

You accused me of using my username to advertise a Navajo Indian walling hangings. These baseless and unfounded accusations need to stop. NOW!!!
No, I did not do that. If you go back and read my post you will see this.As for what needs to stop, as it appears others are of the same mind, threads intending to tell the Non-Reformed, or non-Calvinist they are any number of insults levied by certain posters who belabor the push for TULIP, Calvinism and RTw/TULIP, need to stop in their agenda to regurgitate the same argumentative points under different thread titles. And for the same motives.