WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

[RevelationMan]

If you continue on reading the 2 Thessalonians 2, its all made clear. These people were facing persecution and they thought "oh oh, the day of the Lord is here". Paul is saying dont be scared. Why would they be scared of that? Shouldn't they be happy the rapture is coming, the Lord is returning? It makes sense they were scared because they thought they missed the rapture and were in the tribulation period, which is why they were scared it was the day of the Lord. The Bible also says "Woe to those who wish to see the day of the Lord" in Amos 5:18. afaik.

I agree with the Luke verses about days of Lot, Lot was also removed pre-trib, pre-wrath, pre-judgment. Sooo... that kind of proves my point there dear

The last trump can be pre-trib easily because when Corinthians was written Revelation wasnt yet written, so the Corinthians wouldn't of guessed it was the seventh trump of the book of Revelation.

What I believe is the "Last trump" is posted in the chart that I posted. It is the Feast of trumpets, where the final trumpet is blown, the Lord calls us out by name and we are transformed, right before this the dead in Christ shall rise, and we will go to the judgment seat of Christ, and enter the wedding chamber.

There are souls in heaven before the church is raptured as you said, I am not denying that. But clearly these people in Revelation 5&19 are not just souls, but people in glorified bodies because they already have their rewards, white linen and most importantly: Crowns.

More evidence that these are saved people in glorified bodies can be found in Zechariah 14. When the Lord is returning notice that the saved Jews who are fleeing through the valley created by the mount of olives splitting as the Lord touches down on it are not transformed into glorified bodies. They arent raptured. Why is that? If the Rapture happens at the second coming, they should be transformed like all other believers, in a moment in a blink of an eye, but they are not.
The rapture already occured prior to this event of the second advent.

I am not trying to force you into believing in the pre-trib rapture, but I hope you do consider it with prayer, I believe the post-trib makes no sense. It has so many issues such as: who populates the millennium, why does Jesus beat up on His bride, how can imminent return be true if we can calculate precisely 3,5years from the abomination of desolation to the second coming, why would God punish the righteous with the wicked, when is there any time for the judgment seat of Christ, why arent the Jews raptured at the second coming if its the same event with the rapture and many more questions!

this video shows the rapture of the church...

http://mobilelaz.com/judgmentday/thedayofthelord.mp4

 

[DeighAnn]

Sinners who had sinned and where in hell ( the soul prison ) but who had not yet heard the Gospel nor had they rejected the Gospel.. So people in hell since the days of Noah and the flood had a chance to hear the Gospel from Jesus and i believe they had the chance to accept the Gospel and be saved or reject the Gospel and remain in hell. So yes there is a Hell and i am not sure why you bring this topic up since i don't think it has anything to do with the topic of the thread Rapture timing in relation to the great tribulation. But i guess expanding topics are normal in these threads..

Is it possible to be a "sinner" if you have never heard Gods Law? as "sin" is transgression of the law?
Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world but sin is not imputed when there is no law


You do believe a person goes to Heaven (with Abraham, right side of gulf) or hell (prison) wrong side of gulf when they die
Ecclesiastes 12:1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


The reason for my "mysterious" sentence is I do not want to put words in your mouth. I do not want to falsely accuse. At the same time I did not follow what you were saying. I think if I had just opened with "please clarify" it would have avoided everything there. I walk a bit on egg shells, I've been reprimanded for that, so I am trying to avoid.

The Day of the LORD includes the wrath of God that will be poured out upon the followers of the Wicked One who is known by most as either the beast or the Anti-Christ.. This will happen after most Christians have been executed by followers of the Anti-christ for their refusal to worship the Image of the beast..

Fixing the deadly wound, Satan goes about to deceive the world into thinking he is Christ returned. How is it killing mass amounts of people going to make the world believe he is God? How is that peacefully?

Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
Daniel 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
The flood of lies is the deception, he is coming for souls, not flesh. What did he try to do with Christ, our example?

Daniel 11:23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
Daniel 11:24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
Who are the prey? Those without the gospel armor. Those who don't know it is Satan, performing miracles etc.

Daniel 11:25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand for they shall forecast devices against him.
Daniel 11:26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow and many shall fall down slain.
Daniel 11:27 And both these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.
Daniel 11:28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches and his heart shall be against the holy covenant and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
Daniel 11:29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
Daniel 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant so shall he do he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
Daniel 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
Those with the gospel armor (led by the two witnesses) but many will not believe the truth and shall take the mark

Daniel 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end because it is yet for a time appointed.
Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished for that that is determined shall be done.
Daniel 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god for he shall magnify himself above all.
Daniel 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
Daniel 11:39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
Daniel 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
Daniel 11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
Daniel 11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
Daniel 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Well there has been no recording of any Saints being raised from the dead since that day.. So these Saints must have been servants of God who where killed / executed because of their service to God.. Jesus even lamented about Jerusalem and the Jews::

Jesus was speaking about if they had accepted Him then, the kingdom of God would have come in, instead of being put off to the future.

 

[DeighAnn]

Again struggling to understand why you have married these two separate verses? Matthew 10 is a call to fear God and his power far more then those on earth who would persecute and kill us? "neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" is talking about our dead flesh rotting in the graves and how rotten flesh cannot be caused to be incorruptable to inherit eternal life in Gods kingdom.. I can only speculate that you interpret the word corruption to mean taking bribes or some corrupt ( as in sinful behavor) because you are not being clear what you actually believe the corruption in the scripture means.. So again i feel like i am ghost boxing..

I married the two verses because "be absent from the body (corruptible terrestrial mortal flesh) is to be present with the Lord (in the incorruptible celestial spiritual either mortal or immortal body) , the body man can't kill (so no need to fear this death), yet still a body and soul God can kill. I hope that explains my understanding of corruptible in its context.


When flesh body man dies, spiritual body man goes back to heaven to be with the Lord.
The flesh goes into the dirt and rots, and the soul puts on it spiritual body and is present with the Lord, on one side of the gulf or the other.

And soon it will be : On earth as it is in heaven.
Right now, a gulf that can't be crossed in heaven,
And on the Lords Day, a river that can't be crossed on earth.


And those are who return with Christ those on the right side of the gulf. The rest get here when the host of heaven is dissolved.

If there were to be a "rapture" of the church before Satan Tribulation, Satan could not deceive anyone into thinking he is Christ returned, because they all would have witnessed the biggest ever all time super unbelievable miracle that will ever have been, not to mention EVERYONE missing friends or loved ones or rulers, or bosses. The world would plunge into chaos for years. Satan shows up and tries to convince anyone of anything and they are like "fly me away", but he can't compete with that, I don't care how good he talks.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If there were to be a "rapture" of the church before Satan Tribulation, Satan could not deceive anyone into thinking he is Christ returned, because they all would have witnessed the biggest ever all time super unbelievable miracle that will ever have been, not to mention EVERYONE missing friends or loved ones or rulers, or bosses. The world would plunge into chaos for years. Satan shows up and tries to convince anyone of anything and they are like "fly me away", but he can't compete with that, I don't care how good he talks.

These comments show a gross misunderstanding of the Rapture and what it means for the saints of God. Neither Satan, nor the Antichrist, nor the unbelieving world, have anything to do with the Rapture. But you also have some bizarre and weird interpretations in that post, so such strange comments are understandable.

 

[DeighAnn]

We gather unto Christ at the 2nd Advent, the Lords Day, THE DAY OF VENGENCE, also known as the Millennium, 3 1/2 days after the two witnesses are killed and lie dead in the street, when Jesus descends as lord of Lords and king of Kings, on a white horse, in clouds, at the 7th/last trump, and in the twinkling of an eye the dead are resurrected and we are all changed into our spiritual bodies. His feet will hit the mount and a valley will be cleaved out, as for Satan, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, he will be bound and put in the pit for the thousand years.

Jesus will not return a second before that, for any purpose what so ever. How do we know for 100% positive? Because if He did, then this would be a lie. And if He did, there would be a reference to the two events somewhere. But there are not. Just a lot about one.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

There is nothing a man can say to make this go away. GATHERING UNTO HIM, SHALL NOT COME UNTIL SATAN IS REVEALED.

NO GATHERING TO HIM. HE DOESN'T COME TO GATHER UNTIL AFTER SATAN HAS BEEN REVEALED. IT IS THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING IN WHICH SATAN IS REVEALED. SO UNTIL SATAN IS REVEALED AT THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING THERE IS NO GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM.

IF THERE WAS A GATHERING UNTO HIM OF ANY SORT, IN ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM THAT WOULD RENDER THIS A LIE. THERE IS NO GETTING AROUND IT IN ANYWAY.


Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
He had to say it again. Just to make sure.

And WHAT ARE WE TOLD ABOUT PEOPLE WHO DON'T BELIEVE THIS VERY SPECIFIC THING?

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie
2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


THEY instead believed a doctrine in which they TOLD THEMSELVES THEY WOULD BE SAVED. And if they could believe that lie, they didn't stand a chance anyhow.

I DIDN'T WRITE IT. just read it. Believed the truth of it. Didn't make any excuses for it. Didn't add a 3rd advent on my own. Can everyone say that?

The Rapture Theory makes Gods Word null and void. So it cant be truth.



SURELY, if Paul is ALREADY correcting a misunderstanding about "our gathering to Christ", THIS would be the place to bring up the supposed " two " more times Christ shall be returning, wouldn't it? Or add one verse clearing it all up. But he gives not a hint to it, in fact, the exact opposite is what he does.

 

[DeighAnn]

Is there something else from the 1st letter that maybe this is addressing? Lets go look for it.


1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
1 Thessalonians 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1 Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
1 Thessalonians 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.
1 Thessalonians 1:7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.
1 Thessalonians 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God
1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Wrath. Not tribulation

1 Thessalonians 2:1 For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain:
1 Thessalonians 2:2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.
1 Thessalonians 2:3 For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:
1 Thessalonians 2:4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.
1 Thessalonians 2:5 For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness:
1 Thessalonians 2:6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.
1 Thessalonians 2:7 But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children
1 Thessalonians 2:8 So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us.
1 Thessalonians 2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.
1 Thessalonians 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:
1 Thessalonians 2:11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children,
1 Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
1 Thessalonians 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
1 Thessalonians 2:17 But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with great desire.
1 Thessalonians 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.
1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
IF THERE ARE 2 COMINGS OF CHRIST, nothing is mentioned here OF WHICH ONE IS BEING SPOKEN OF? WOULDN'T THIS BE A GREAT PLACE TO ADD JUST ONE VERSE
THAT SAYS something like
"AND BY "AT HIS COMING", I AM referring to THE 1ST ONE AFTER THE 1ST Advent, making IT THE 2ND, but not the 2ND ONE AFTER THE 1ST ONE, WHICH would make the 2nd one actually THE 3RD.
1 Thessalonians 2:20 For ye are our glory and joy.

 

[DeighAnn]

1 Thessalonians 3:1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone
1 Thessalonians 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith
1 Thessalonians 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
1 Thessalonians 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation even as it came to pass, and ye know.
1Thessalonians 3:5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.
1Thessalonians 3:6 But now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you:
1 Thessalonians 3:7 Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith
1 Thessalonians 3:8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 3:9 For what thanks can we render to God again for you, for all the joy wherewith we joy for your sakes before our God
1 Thessalonians 3:10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?
1 Thessalonians 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
1 Thessalonians 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you
1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

ONCE AGAIN, a perfect opportunity to make a clarification about WHAT CCOMING HE MIGHT BE SPEAKING OF, IF THERE REALLY WERE TWO.
1 Thessalonians 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
1 Thessalonians 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication
1 Thessalonians 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour
1 Thessalonians 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
1 Thessalonians 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
1 Thessalonians 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
1 Thessalonians 4:10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more
1 Thessalonians 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you
1 Thessalonians 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
AND ONCE AGAIN, NOT A HINT OF ANY CLARIFICATION AS TO WHICH "COMING OF THE LORD" HE IS REFERRING TO

GOD DOESN'T keep secrets. How is it possible that THE ABSOLUTELY BIGGEST EVENT"S" TO EVER TAKE PLACE IN this WORLD AGE, AND GOD KEEPS GOING ON LIKE IT DOESN'T EVEN EXIST

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first
WHICH TIME? He KEEPs NOT GIVING ANY CLARIFICATION IT'S LIKE HE BELIEVES THERE WILL ONLY BE ONE COMING IN THE FUTURE.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
NO WAY, WHICH COMING OF THE LORD?

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child and they shall not escape.
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1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others but let us watch and be sober.
1 Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1 Thessalonians 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
1 Thessalonians 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you
1 Thessalonians 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
1 Thessalonians 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
1 Thessalonians 5:16 Rejoice evermore.
1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1 Thessalonians 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I CAN'T BELIEVE THERE ARE REALLY 2 MORE ADVENTS OF CHRIST. PAUL JUST NEVER EVER EVER REFERS TO THERE BEING ANY BUT JUST ONE OR HERE he surely WOULD MAKE A MENTION OF WHAT ONE HE IS SPEAKING TO.
1 Thessalonians 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
1 Thessalonians 5:25 Brethren, pray for us.
1 Thessalonians 5:26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
1 Thessalonians 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
Thessalonians 5:28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

SO no, after a read of both letters, there is one thing that stands clear, and it is not only what is BEING SAID, IT IS WHAT IS NOT BEING SAID THAT SPEAKS MORE TO THE TRUTH.

 

[Adstar]

Is it possible to be a "sinner" if you have never heard Gods Law? as "sin" is transgression of the law?

Maybe you can start another thread for this topic..

You do believe a person goes to Heaven (with Abraham, right side of gulf) or hell (prison) wrong side of gulf when they die

You assume Abraham was in heaven in the story of Lazarus...

The reason for my "mysterious" sentence is I do not want to put words in your mouth. I do not want to falsely accuse.

I prefer clear communication.. My skin is thick i am not a snowflake that melts under the slightest heat.. People speaking in riddles causes me far more frustration then people asking me if i believe this or that..

Fixing the deadly wound, Satan goes about to deceive the world into thinking he is Christ returned. How is it killing mass amounts of people going to make the world believe he is God? How is that peacefully?

Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

That is one verse stating how this vile person ( the beast / anti-christ ) will manipulate his way into controling the 10 horned empire of the beast... This verse is not saying that after he obtains the place of leader of the empire he will remain peacefull to the day of the return of Jesus...

For this man to decieve the people of the world that He is the Messiah He MUST be seen to fulfill prophecy associated with the return of or coming of the Messiah.. Have a read of the prophecies of the Day of the LORD.. People will be looking for him to have a great victory in the biggest war the world has ever seen.. The Anti-christ has to organise with his followers a battle of amaggedon and win it.. He must go out ands destroy the ""enemies"" of the false christians and the Jews to help him decieve both sets of people to follow Him and worship Him as God on earth.. So reading the account in Daniel 11.. we have two evil kings.. The king of the North and the king of the South.. The king of the north ( leader of the European Union ) wages a series of great wars against the king of the South and eventually exterminates the people of the king of the South ( Arabs muslims i believe ) Thus fooling the Jews into believing he is their Messiah come to defeat their enemies and establish the promised kingdom.. Of course the Jews will eventually recoil as worshipping Him as God on earth seeing that they do not believe their Messiah will be God in the flesh.. But decieved christians? they will have no trouble worshipping him when they believe He is Jesus returned..

The flood of lies is the

deception, he is coming for souls, not flesh. What did he try to do with Christ, our example?

Who are the prey? Those without the gospel armor. Those who don't know it is Satan, performing miracles etc.

Those with the gospel armor (led by the two witnesses) but many will not believe the truth and shall take the mark

You are overly symbolizing the scriptures i believe..

 

[Absolutely]

We gather unto Christ at the 2nd Advent, the Lords Day, THE DAY OF VENGENCE, also known as the Millennium, 3 1/2 days after the two witnesses are killed and lie dead in the street, when Jesus descends as lord of Lords and king of Kings, on a white horse, in clouds, at the 7th/last trump, and in the twinkling of an eye the dead are resurrected and we are all changed into our spiritual bodies. His feet will hit the mount and a valley will be cleaved out, as for Satan, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, he will be bound and put in the pit for the thousand years.

Jesus will not return a second before that, for any purpose what so ever. How do we know for 100% positive? Because if He did, then this would be a lie. And if He did, there would be a reference to the two events somewhere. But there are not. Just a lot about one.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

There is nothing a man can say to make this go away. GATHERING UNTO HIM, SHALL NOT COME UNTIL SATAN IS REVEALED.

NO GATHERING TO HIM. HE DOESN'T COME TO GATHER UNTIL AFTER SATAN HAS BEEN REVEALED. IT IS THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING IN WHICH SATAN IS REVEALED. SO UNTIL SATAN IS REVEALED AT THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING THERE IS NO GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM.

IF THERE WAS A GATHERING UNTO HIM OF ANY SORT, IN ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM THAT WOULD RENDER THIS A LIE. THERE IS NO GETTING AROUND IT IN ANYWAY.


Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
He had to say it again. Just to make sure.

And WHAT ARE WE TOLD ABOUT PEOPLE WHO DON'T BELIEVE THIS VERY SPECIFIC THING?

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie
2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


THEY instead believed a doctrine in which they TOLD THEMSELVES THEY WOULD BE SAVED. And if they could believe that lie, they didn't stand a chance anyhow.

I DIDN'T WRITE IT. just read it. Believed the truth of it. Didn't make any excuses for it. Didn't add a 3rd advent on my own. Can everyone say that?

The Rapture Theory makes Gods Word null and void. So it cant be truth.



SURELY, if Paul is ALREADY correcting a misunderstanding about "our gathering to Christ", THIS would be the place to bring up the supposed " two " more times Christ shall be returning, wouldn't it? Or add one verse clearing it all up. But he gives not a hint to it, in fact, the exact opposite is what he does.

2Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
It says "revealed".
You are making a case for it to say "in power"

Iow,the ac could be revealed for 5 hours and the rapture take place before a hint of his mischief.

The pretrib rapture is the only position that has harmony.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Where is there a resurrection in Matthew 24? No where to be seen. No mention of a resurrection, or rapture anywhere in the chapter. No mention of anyone being caught up? All we have is people gathered from the four winds at the return of Jesus.

 

[Absolutely]

1 Thessalonians 3:1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone
1 Thessalonians 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith
1 Thessalonians 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
1 Thessalonians 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation even as it came to pass, and ye know.
1Thessalonians 3:5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.
1Thessalonians 3:6 But now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you:
1 Thessalonians 3:7 Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith
1 Thessalonians 3:8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 3:9 For what thanks can we render to God again for you, for all the joy wherewith we joy for your sakes before our God
1 Thessalonians 3:10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?
1 Thessalonians 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
1 Thessalonians 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you
1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

ONCE AGAIN, a perfect opportunity to make a clarification about WHAT CCOMING HE MIGHT BE SPEAKING OF, IF THERE REALLY WERE TWO.
1 Thessalonians 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
...... which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
AND ONCE AGAIN, NOT A HINT OF ANY CLARIFICATION AS TO WHICH "COMING OF THE LORD" HE IS REFERRING TO

GOD DOESN'T keep secrets. How is it possible that THE ABSOLUTELY BIGGEST EVENT"S" TO EVER TAKE PLACE IN this WORLD AGE, AND GOD KEEPS GOING ON LIKE IT DOESN'T EVEN EXIST

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first
WHICH TIME? He KEEPs NOT GIVING ANY CLARIFICATION IT'S LIKE HE BELIEVES THERE WILL ONLY BE ONE COMING IN THE FUTURE.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
NO WAY, WHICH COMING OF THE LORD?

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child and they shall not escape.
o
1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others but let us watch and be sober.
1 Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1 Thessalonians 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
1 Thessalonians 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you
1 Thessalonians 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
1 Thessalonians 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
1 Thessalonians 5:16 Rejoice evermore.
1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1 Thessalonians 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I CAN'T BELIEVE THERE ARE REALLY 2 MORE ADVENTS OF CHRIST. PAUL JUST NEVER EVER EVER REFERS TO THERE BEING ANY BUT JUST ONE OR HERE he surely WOULD MAKE A MENTION OF WHAT ONE HE IS SPEAKING TO.
1 Thessalonians 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
1 Thessalonians 5:25 Brethren, pray for us.
1 Thessalonians 5:26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
1 Thessalonians 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
Thessalonians 5:28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

SO no, after a read of both letters, there is one thing that stands clear, and it is not only what is BEING SAID, IT IS WHAT IS NOT BEING SAID THAT SPEAKS MORE TO THE TRUTH.

I guess you can not possibly process rev 14.

Let me post the verses that allude you.

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.


Jesus appears/comes,sitting on a cloud and gathers a group unto himself.(reaps them from the earth) ...psssst,thats also what the pretrib rapture is....like taking the wise virgins to the marrige chamber.

That knocks a massive hole in your doctrine of. ...".ONLY ONE COMING."

Because you can not discern the parable of the 10 virgins,you fail to see neither they, not lot, nor noah have ANY DEALINGS with a gathering or removal (rapture) AFTER JUDGEMENT. THEY ARE ALL PREJUDGEMENT DYNAMICS.

Btw,please note in luke (ch 17?) Jesus says "let he on the houstop" NOT COME DOWN"?

not come down.

Because he is about to be "taken/raptured"

Then he compares such a one coming down to lots wife.

...so many,many things that you can not

 

[DeighAnn]

It says "revealed".
You are making a case for it to say "in power"

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Mark 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

Mark 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

Mark 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Mark 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

WHO is this Word being written to? YE, not the heathen, not the unbelievers, etc. YE
Who is Ye? The Christians, the Church, the Body of Christ, the Bride, Israel,

WHO SHALL SEE THESEE THINGS COME TO PASS? YE SHALL SEE THESE THINGS COME TO PASS
Who SHALL need to take heed? YE
Who shall see the abomination of desolation standing where it ought not? YE shall see


So no, I do not believe I am taking "revealed" out of context.

 

[Absolutely]

this video shows the rapture of the church...

http://mobilelaz.com/judgmentday/thedayofthelord.mp4

Too abstract.
No verses

 

[Absolutely]

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Mark 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

Mark 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

Mark 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Mark 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

WHO is this Word being written to? YE, not the heathen, not the unbelievers, etc. YE
Who is Ye? The Christians, the Church, the Body of Christ, the Bride, Israel,

WHO SHALL SEE THESEE THINGS COME TO PASS? YE SHALL SEE THESE THINGS COME TO PASS
Who SHALL need to take heed? YE
Who shall see the abomination of desolation standing where it ought not? YE shall see


So no, I do not believe I am taking "revealed" out of context.

Then you will be interested to know that it in no wise says "falling away"
It only says "departure"

So he/the ac shall not be revealed untill there be a departure.

Hmmmmm

Look it up and read it literally.

 

[Absolutely]

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Mark 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

Mark 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

Mark 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Mark 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

WHO is this Word being written to? YE, not the heathen, not the unbelievers, etc. YE
Who is Ye? The Christians, the Church, the Body of Christ, the Bride, Israel,

WHO SHALL SEE THESEE THINGS COME TO PASS? YE SHALL SEE THESE THINGS COME TO PASS
Who SHALL need to take heed? YE
Who shall see the abomination of desolation standing where it ought not? YE shall see


So no, I do not believe I am taking "revealed" out of context.

.........and yet Jesus comes in rev 14 and raptures out "ripe fruit" unto himself.

Uh,and that is DURING THE GT.

SO .... your "one coming "deal is debunked

 

[Absolutely]

Where is there a resurrection in Matthew 24? No where to be seen. No mention of a resurrection, or rapture anywhere in the chapter. No mention of anyone being caught up? All we have is people gathered from the four winds at the return of Jesus.

The rapture is vividly painted.
Vividly.

But we are all welcome to ignore it.

A huge clue is Jesus putting in the commands to watch and wait and declare his soon return.

Also test fit a mid or post trib rapture.
They all TOTALLY fall on their face big time.

The pretrib rapture is as easy to defend as the trinity.

Rev 14 is the thread killer

 

[Absolutely]

1 Thessalonians 3:1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone
1 Thessalonians 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith
1 Thessalonians 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
1 Thessalonians 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation even as it came to pass, and ye know.
1Thessalonians 3:5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.
1Thessalonians 3:6 But now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you:
1 Thessalonians 3:7 Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith
1 Thessalonians 3:8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 3:9 For what thanks can we render to God again for you, for all the joy wherewith we joy for your sakes before our God
1 Thessalonians 3:10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?
1 Thessalonians 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
1 Thessalonians 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you
1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

ONCE AGAIN, a perfect opportunity to make a clarification about WHAT CCOMING HE MIGHT BE SPEAKING OF, IF THERE REALLY WERE TWO.
1 Thessalonians 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
1 Thessalonians 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication
1 Thessalonians 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour
1 Thessalonians 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
1 Thessalonians 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
1 Thessalonians 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
1 Thessalonians 4:10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more
1 Thessalonians 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you
1 Thessalonians 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
AND ONCE AGAIN, NOT A HINT OF ANY CLARIFICATION AS TO WHICH "COMING OF THE LORD" HE IS REFERRING TO

GOD DOESN'T keep secrets. How is it possible that THE ABSOLUTELY BIGGEST EVENT"S" TO EVER TAKE PLACE IN this WORLD AGE, AND GOD KEEPS GOING ON LIKE IT DOESN'T EVEN EXIST

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first
WHICH TIME? He KEEPs NOT GIVING ANY CLARIFICATION IT'S LIKE HE BELIEVES THERE WILL ONLY BE ONE COMING IN THE FUTURE.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
NO WAY, WHICH COMING OF THE LORD?

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child and they shall not escape.
o
1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others but let us watch and be sober.
1 Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1 Thessalonians 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
1 Thessalonians 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you
1 Thessalonians 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
1 Thessalonians 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
1 Thessalonians 5:16 Rejoice evermore.
1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1 Thessalonians 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I CAN'T BELIEVE THERE ARE REALLY 2 MORE ADVENTS OF CHRIST. PAUL JUST NEVER EVER EVER REFERS TO THERE BEING ANY BUT JUST ONE OR HERE he surely WOULD MAKE A MENTION OF WHAT ONE HE IS SPEAKING TO.
1 Thessalonians 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
1 Thessalonians 5:25 Brethren, pray for us.
1 Thessalonians 5:26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
1 Thessalonians 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
Thessalonians 5:28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

SO no, after a read of both letters, there is one thing that stands clear, and it is not only what is BEING SAID, IT IS WHAT IS NOT BEING SAID THAT SPEAKS MORE TO THE TRUTH.

....and yet Jesus said there would be buying and selling,marrying etc ,or life as usual at his Coming.

So that is not the second coming.
At the second coming Jesus comes back to acdestroyed earth with half the population gone.

No way is your doctrine possible.
Completely impossible.

 

[Absolutely]

you can not defeat Jesus's words.

But that is exactly what you are trying to do.

You need;
1) Noah to be delivered or leave AFTER the flood.
2) Lot to stay in sodom DURING THE DESTRUCTION, then God sends abraham AFTER JUDGEMENT.
3) The 5 wise virgins taken during some horrific times of judgement or after such.

IOW Jesus delivered all FIRST.....then came judgement.
Your doctring leaves out the bulk of evidence.
You lead to obscure streatches to hope for a church going through judgement.
Your hope is that we go through the wrath of the ac and wrath of God himself.

Wow.

 

[Absolutely]

Then you will be interested to know that it in no wise says "falling away"
It only says "departure"

So he/the ac shall not be revealed untill there be a departure.

Hmmmmm

Look it up and read it literally.

Yep,look it up in the greek.

Then read it literally.

Departure first...then comes the ac.

That is ALL it says

 

[DeighAnn]

I guess you can not possibly process rev 14.

That knocks a massive hole in your doctrine of. ...".ONLY ONE COMING."

Because you can not discern the parable of the 10 virgins,you fail to see neither they, not lot, nor noah have ANY DEALINGS with a gathering or removal (rapture) AFTER JUDGEMENT. THEY ARE ALL PREJUDGEMENT DYNAMICS.

Btw,please note in luke (ch 17?) Jesus says "let he on the houstop" NOT COME DOWN"?

not come down.

Because he is about to be "taken/raptured"

Then he compares such a one coming down to lots wife.

...so many,many things that you can not

I have showed you Rev 14, the 10 virgins,

You have yet to address The 2nd Thess letter or the false doctrine "teaching to fly away" to save their souls in Ezek 13 is referring to. Or how you can "fly away" and yet be here to overcome. And how it is even spelled out for one of the churches how "some of them will be brought up for a 10 day trial" or A single verse where there is a "difference" of reference between the two supposed events. You seem to believe you can add meaning, change meaning, and make the Word void, and it is ok. You keep bringing up a verses and ASSIGNING A TIME TO THEM to fit a doctrine you believe in, even though in place after place we are told NOT UNTIL after.

Don't be deceived. Don't be taken. Don't be harvested out of season. Put on the armor to withstand the fiery darts. Some will have 10 day trial. He that overcomes. Woe to those with child and give suck. Don't wish godspeed. Don't worry what you will say, take heed to yourselves do not premeditate, but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit, the brother shall betray the brother to death


but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved,

How can this and what you say BOTH be GODS TRUTH? It is confusion. God is not the author of confusion. How much of Gods word are you willing to see rendered vain?

If this doctrine was of a truth, just like everything else, of truth, it would create NO discrepancies IN THE WORD. BUT IT DOES.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2 John 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

It is not my doctrine of ONLY 2 ADVENTS.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God to comfort all that mourn
(notice a lack of ANY reference to a "gathering of the bride" when speaking of His return. No extra day included. You have to add that in yourself)
Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

WHAT IS ALL FOR? THAT HE MIGHT BE GLORIFIED.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
(notice a lack of ANY reference to a "gathering of the bride" when speaking of His return. No extra day included. You have to add that in yourself)

Psalm 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
Psalm 50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
(do you see a problem here? YOU are setting YOURSELF as NOT HAVING and/or skipping A DAY OF JUDGMENT. Only those who are preordained, foreknew, the elect, ect. don't have to face judgment and they most certainly will be here for Satans tribulation)


Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains and let them which are in the midst of it depart out and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luke 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
(They are not virgins anymore, are they? so you know Satan is already here) And THEN SEE JESUS COMING

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
(Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword...)

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring

Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Luke 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
(WHAT are we told it will be like when Satan and the fallen angel come?)

Luke 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.


Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
1628 ekpheugo
to flee away, flee out

And how does it read in the Greek?
Luke 21:36 Watch also at every season praying that you may have strength to escape these things all that are about to come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man


Rightly dividing the Word of God, which is perfect, and has not a single flaw or conflict is TRUTH. If ever there is thought to be one mistake found, it is that man who is wrong.

Knowing this and using just this will always lead you to Gods Truth, Gods Plan and steer you away from the rest. There is NOTHING and NO ONE that matters in comparison to that truth.