SHOULD WE CHECK OUR DENOMINATIONS FOR TRUTH?

[Dino246]

Mat 5:27-38, The old testament laws were good laws which taught them what sin was and Jesus by the new testament perfected those laws.

Sidestepping now? I made no claim about the quality of the OT Law. I merely told you what Scripture itself says about it. The NT did not "perfect" those laws. Firstly, it's the Law; a unit, not a collection. Secondly, Jesus expanded the understanding of the Law; the NT is merely the record of His (and others') words. Thirdly, Jesus fulfilled the Law.

 

[Blik]

If you really believe that, why are you constantly judging others?

I hope you read my posts as an idea of what scripture tells us and think about those ideas but ONLY as one Christian's ideas subject to your critique, not as judging. Only God can judge and I am so far from being a God that the idea is preposterous.

 

[Whispered]

This is so often quoted and used as a reason for them to get rid of the Lord;s instruction to us. If we followed this as the Lord's guidance of all our actions it would eliminate Christmas, Sunday, Easter, or anything with dates. I cannot believe that God wants that for us. God does want us to not judge others, for that is only the Lord's place in our lives.

This is only put in scripture once, other instructions can be followed all through scripture. As an example, to honor the Sabbath is repeated over and over, yet this of often ignored by Christians who carefully obey this by using it as a reason to not honor other instructions, although it only speaks of judging, not of honoring God at a specified time.

Maybe consider this. If we are not to judge others what then does this mean? The Book of Ephesians chapter 5:11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them."

Or this:
The Book of Ezekiel chapter 3:18 When I tell wicked people they will die because of their sins, you must warn them to turn from their sinful ways so they won’t be punished. If you refuse, you are responsible for their death. 19 However, if you do warn them, and they keep on sinning, they will die because of their sins, and you will be innocent.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I think the truth CAN be known, the truth is in scripture. Much of that scripture uses what was clear to man many thousands of years ago, we need to work to understand, now. We are given tools to work with to gain that understanding, we needed some history of those times. Much history has come to light for us.

Lots of our understanding has been messed with to add confusion by the attitude against learning what the OT has to say about God's principles. People say the new covenant cancelled much, and that is wrong. The new covenant added a depth of spiritual understanding, nothing of God's principles was changed in any way by this covenant. God is eternal, God is the I Am.

Yes but I ask the question what is truth and can it be known and a Christian usually responds the Word of God, but then I see your OP in search of the 1 true church. If many denominations are using the same scripture then where do we find this one true church?

 

[Nehemiah6]

You are studying from a bible version that has changed and added words to fit a man's personal interpretation. There is no such word as obsolete in the KJV.

Even though I refuted your nonsense in post #73, you persist in your error. That is wilful blindness and resistance to the truth. And there is a price to be paid for that.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If many denominations are using the same scripture then where do we find this one true church?

The one true Church is the Body of Christ. There may be churches around the world that hold to New Testament truth and practice. But there is no monolithic and visible *one true Church* (as some would have us think).

 

[Blik]

Wrong.

Hebrews 8:13 NASB When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Haven't you read any of this post? What does obsolete mean to you? What exactly is disappearing? Is the OT disappearing? Is the new covenant a completely new creation that the Lord has created from scratch or is it,as a study of the original language of this verse tells us, an improvement on the old? If it is a completely new creation then God is not eternal nor can we rely on His words for He could create something that does away with all He has told us.

 

[Blik]

The one true Church is the Body of Christ. There may be churches around the world that hold to New Testament truth and practice. But there is no monolithic and visible *one true Church* (as some would have us think).

This post is not about the one true church, it is about the church that we attend each Sunday.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The one true Church is the Body of Christ. There may be churches around the world that hold to New Testament truth and practice. But there is no monolithic and visible *one true Church* (as some would have us think).

Agree that is what I am trying to understand is in his search for the 1 true church. Does he think he has found it or can find it. Is he looking for 1 denomination or advocating the creation of a new 1 that fits his research on what the 1 true church should be.

Otherwise I only see multiple denominations until the end of times due to the fact of our finite knowledge, our different spiritual experiences, different revelations, and we are centuries apart from the original sources that could of refuted, corrected or resisted any interpretation that missed the mark.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 8:13 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/heb.8.13.KJV

When He said, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
Hebrews 8:13 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/heb.8.13.NASB

One uses decay the other uses obsolete. Actually obsolete is softer than decay, if something decays it is not useable. If something is obsolete it can still be used albeit not effective. So the KJV makes a stronger case I saying it decayeth. Either way it says the old is not used because the new has replaced it. In reading the whole chapter you see that this is all about the change from old to new. You miss the mark of you look to the shadow of things to come when that has already come. Going back to the sign post that points the direction once you have arrived. If the meal is on the table do you still look at the menu? When in the theater to watch a movie do you watch the advertisement for the movie rather than the movie? Once you have arrived at your destination do you go back and look at the map to see how to get there? As it is written these were the shadow of the things to come of which Christ is the substance. I will opt for substance rather than the shadow. It's foolishness to seek after the shadow when the substance is here.

 

[Dino246]

Haven't you read any of this post? What does obsolete mean to you? What exactly is disappearing? Is the OT disappearing? Is the new covenant a completely new creation that the Lord has created from scratch or is it,as a study of the original language of this verse tells us, an improvement on the old? If it is a completely new creation then God is not eternal nor can we rely on His words for He could create something that does away with all He has told us.

Did I say the OT was disappearing? No.

The new covenant is separate from the old covenant, not a modification of it. This fact does not alter God in any way; He is still eternal and still reliable.

I have to wonder why you think the old covenant does apply to you. Are you an ethnic Israelite (and I don't mean modern Israeli)?

 

[Nehemiah6]

This post is not about the one true church, it is about the church that we attend each Sunday.

In that case just make sure that your local assembly preaches and practices what is clearly revealed in Acts chapter 2, and the numerous injunctions in the New Testament. But it all begins with the full and true Gospel of the Grace of God, and Christ Himself is the Gospel.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The version changed nothing, and the version added nothing; that is a fallacy of reification. The men (plural) who did the translating did not work from their "personal interpretation". They are Greek scholars who did their very best to determine the most accurate English words to capture the sense of the Greek.


The words in the KJV don't convey the sense today that they may have in 1611. Words change. Deal with it.

God inspired the prophets of old to write those words and,even though men changed the words, God does not change.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Sidestepping now? I made no claim about the quality of the OT Law. I merely told you what Scripture itself says about it. The NT did not "perfect" those laws. Firstly, it's the Law; a unit, not a collection. Secondly, Jesus expanded the understanding of the Law; the NT is merely the record of His (and others') words. Thirdly, Jesus fulfilled the Law.

The ten commandments were of the old law. Is "thou shalt not kill" obsolete?

 

[Dino246]

God inspired the prophets of old to write those words and,even though men changed the words, God does not change.

Men changed the words into English for the KJV.

Stick that in your Bible and read it.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Get off the gas man, this car is in the ditch.

 

[Blik]

Did I say the OT was disappearing? No.

The new covenant is separate from the old covenant, not a modification of it. This fact does not alter God in any way; He is still eternal and still reliable.

I have to wonder why you think the old covenant does apply to you. Are you an ethnic Israelite (and I don't mean modern Israeli)?

The new covenant IS a modification of the old!. If you go back to the original words used, the Greek and the Hebrew thinking behind the Greek, you will find that our English word new for this covenant is not quite accurate. Our new means that something is created from scratch, has no relation to anything that has been done formerly. The Greek wording and the Hebrew thinking behind that are words that mean new as in something new has been built from the old.

If you are correct in saying that God created something that wipes out the old before it, you would say that God's words are not eternal at all but can be wiped out. That would go against much other scripture, so it would mean that we could not trust scripture at all. That is speaking against God, actually.

 

[Blik]

Maybe consider this. If we are not to judge others what then does this mean? The Book of Ephesians chapter 5:11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them."

Or this:
The Book of Ezekiel chapter 3:18 When I tell wicked people they will die because of their sins, you must warn them to turn from their sinful ways so they won’t be punished. If you refuse, you are responsible for their death. 19 However, if you do warn them, and they keep on sinning, they will die because of their sins, and you will be innocent.

But that is not judging others, it is judging what is right and wrong in God's eyes. That is the study I am doing, but I deal only with the words of the Lord not with people.

 

[Dino246]

The new covenant IS a modification of the old!. If you go back to the original words used, the Greek and the Hebrew thinking behind the Greek, you will find that our English word new for this covenant is not quite accurate. Our new means that something is created from scratch, has no relation to anything that has been done formerly. The Greek wording and the Hebrew thinking behind that are words that mean new as in something new has been built from the old.

And this is relevant how exactly? The old is still obsolete.

If you are correct in saying that God created something that wipes out the old before it, you would say that God's words are not eternal at all but can be wiped out. That would go against much other scripture, so it would mean that we could not trust scripture at all. That is speaking against God, actually.

As I didn't say that "God created something that wipes out the old before it," your point is moot. "Wipes out" are your words, not mine.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The ten commandments were of the old law. Is "thou shalt not kill" obsolete?

To make this simple we must understand the laws of scripture. We have 4.

Moral ( transcendent and universal), ceremonial, judicial, and social compact law.

The ten commandments are moral law. As explained in Romans the moral law existed even in the beginning before the written law. They are transcending.

Ceremonial law has been completed in Christ. These are the laws that basically say you by law must sacrifice this type of animal.

Judicial is power under the government given by God to bring justice to the breaking of moral laws. The law never changes but our punishments may change. Example a horse thief probably would of been hung in the 1700s but same situation today they would face prison time. Still broke the law but punishment may change.

And social Compact law is basically a offset of laws from the moral laws like speed limits or the size of sidewalks. Both are to protect life and help stabilize a civilized society.

All moral laws are just as important in the NT as they was in the OT.

We just have to determine moral from ceremonial or the ancient nations judiciary punishment for breaking such crimes. Those are not under the new covenant.

We can still learn from that ancient nation but God has a different covenant for us to follow.