Feeling discouraged and defeated

Quiettime · Nov 10, 2019

For years I've been searching for the best way to defend the truth of the Bible and explain the the passages in the Bible that atheists always bring up....slavery, commanding mass genocide, rape, causing miscarriage...the "moral monster" arguments. I've been reading lots of posts on this and listening to apologists but honestly, I just don't understand myself and have a hard time when confronted. I usually say something to the effect of God gave us life, we belong to Him and He gets to decide to take whoever He chooses. But that doesn't fly with most people. I must say those passages are shockingly harsh and i dont know any other way to defend it except by saying "He's God" i also dont know how to defend the truth of the Bible. I point out prophecy and how the NT books were historically accurate. But these atheists have really done their homework! This new wave of atheists are on a mission. Many grew up christian and claim reading the Bible is what turned them away. I am a Christian and have been born again for Many years. I believe but feel so discouraged when confronted. I am most concerned about my college daughter who has been steadily losing her faith due to the anti Christian culture and environment. I just can't compete with what she is exposed to. All of these intellectual atheists. I don't know if you can offer any advice to me. I would love it if you said a prayer that my daughter finds her way back to Christ. Her faith has been damaged and she is so far from God these days.. Thank you

DB7 · Nov 14, 2019

Yes, it amazes me sometimes how unpersuasive I can get when engaging with atheists, or any non-Christians. Especially because, let's face it, 'only the fool says in his heart that there is no God'. Yes, i meant that, if not, then I am the biggest fool for believing. Point being, how is it that someone with the undeniable truth cannot undermine and dispel the sentiments of a blind fool? Every single human on earth has the image of God in him, the spiritual dimension to man is axiomatic, it would take a blind, depraved, deceitful fool to not recognize that. Something did not come from nothing, absolutely impossible, especially with such design, complexity and symbiosis as the universe that we all live in.

In other words, it's a matter of the heart, that is, understanding the atheist's pride, hedonism and delusion will help you counter-attack any perceived proof that they have. In other words, it's not about their knowledge, or who knows more facts and scripture, for even as they cite what appears to be incriminating passages to the veracity of the Bible, or goodness of God, they've completed missed the spiritual message. They are truly dull and shallow. No one cares whether or not Noah could've built an ark and carry all the animals, etc.. The point is that God was so mad at his creation that he destroyed it. Also, he decimated the nation that he chose to make himself known, and hung his Messiah on a tree. What is going on here? But, in all their insights, an atheist would rather discuss whether Moses parted the Red Sea, whether their actually existed a city called Jericho, or if Goliath was a giant or not. They completely missed the point. In other words, once you understand the profundity and majesty of the message, the logistics, which are all true, are not a stumbling block.
This life is nothing more than a testing ground to separate the sheep from the goats, and to see just how easily anything with free will will rebel, it's not meant to be enjoyed as the ultimate goal, far from it, ...he saved the best for last. It's meant to show us that we will always take the creation over the creator, and thus God's grace and mercy is truly undeserved, and that he is beautiful in every way for that reason.
Let the dead bury the dead, i.e. let the unspiritual bicker about unspiritual things.

And yet, sometimes i still lack the decisive arguments to expose their shallowness and pretense. In my case, i think that sometimes i just get defensive, or insecure, because when I'm not, it's usually too easy to undermine their arguments. Plus, engrossing oneself in God's word does enlighten you, and the insights come when necessary.
Sorry quiettime if i did nothing more but state the obvious and not answer completely your question. Your concerns, i think, plague a lot of Christians. From my own experience i would simply say, study, stay cool, appreciate the fact that you're right, and that they're completely missing the entire message of the scriptures (it's actually scary how shallow and simple that they are.)
God bless your daughter, I hope that she sees through the lies and begins to recognize that God's right in front of her face!

Hevosmies · Nov 14, 2019

In another topic here is what I had to say about that "argument":

"Atheists are moral monsters. Come tell me about morality after commiting the sin of abortion.

Lucky for us, these men are also spineless cowards who wont STEP UP in the real world, their place of dominion is youtube and the internet.

What I can say to all Christians here is: DONT BE ASHAMED of the Bible. Many times ive seen Christians get awkward when atheists present some 'controversial' verses to them.
Here is what I say: OH what verse you wanna talk about? OH LEVITICUS, I LOVE IT. I love that verse. WHATS NEXT? "

When street-preaching atheists often come around with their slavery verses as you said, or verses about gays and things like that. They do that to make you panic and feel shame and to make you go "uhh.. well uhh it really means....".
What I do nowadays is read their verse, YOU NAME IT; any verse and I say AMEN, thank you God for that verse, I agree and guess what, it means what it says and says what it means. "bu-bu-but" they go, what about the human rights, what about the moral monster, and my response is cold and calculated (in love):

1. Our society would be MUCH BETTER OFF if we followed those laws
2. In the atheist world view THERE AINT NO RIGHTS for any human, there is no wrong or right, since its all just subjective, changing, depending on the culture, so you calling something evil is completely meaningless and your own personal cultural opinion, I beg to differ
3. SO WHAT if you think God is a moral monster? You're opinion is meaningless and saying "Thats evil, therefore it cant exist" is a GARBAGE argument. I dont like thiefs, therefore I dont exist! I've never heard such a retarded argument!

Practically speaking I say PRACTICE makes (closeto)PERFECT. Because once you've dealt with people for long enough you learn how to deal with it and you learn all the arguments and how to answer them. If anyone has any PARTICULAR verses or PARTICULAR questions they got asked by atheists I would be GLAD to give an answer if I have it. I've seen and heard most of it!

If the Lord gives me health I will continue preaching till the cows come home! And there aint a THING an atheist can do about that!

IFOLLOWHIM · Nov 14, 2019

I live in the bible belt!
There is " a church " every two blocks or so!
I have NEVER talked to a true atheist!
JW,Mormons,yes but they are easy to dissuade.
I'm praying for your household!

Nehemiah6 · Nov 14, 2019

Quiettime said:

You could always ask any atheist if he prefers to be a fool rather than a wise person. That should get their dander up. Then follow through and tell that person that God sees you as a fool whether you believe in Him or not. And leave it at that. If you want to take it a step further you can add that all unbelievers will end up in Hell.

Atheists are delusional people who think they are wise. But they are in reality fools, as are all delusional people. The majority of human beings know deep down that there is a Creator or a Supreme Being. So Atheism is an acquired affectation and there are a very small percentage of atheists.

Hullexile · Nov 14, 2019

As a strong atheist for most of my life I would have been one of those people confronting you. It makes no difference what you say, they are not listening. They live in their heads not their hearts. They are convinced of their superiority and your stupidity. Arguing with them just makes them feel stronger and can sap your spiritual strength.

Just be strong in your belief and tell them you will pray for them (that will really annoy them).

morefaithrequired · Nov 14, 2019

Rarely is there a constructive debate between atheist and Christian. Its bad enough between Christian and Christian.
I avoid it if possible. But being an a good apologist is very very difficult.

MattforJesus · Nov 14, 2019

Quiettime said:

The truth is everything God does is for the benefit of people to preserve life, stop harm, and get the truth to them if a person honestly reads the Bible without prejudice or a biased belief.

But many people want to hear things the way they want to hear things so if they do not want to believe in a God they will find things against His character.

The way God operated in the Old Testament if He did not operate that way more people would of been killed, hurt, or perverted from the truth.

God had to protect Israel and keep her in the truth for Jesus was coming through the nation of Israel, and salvation is of the Jews.

If a nation or kingdom were spreading cruelty, or perversion, and their false ways too far God had to do something about it for it was hurting people physically, and hurting people from seeing the truth of God which is the greatest benefit of all.

God even prospered the kingdom of Babylon greatly because they acknowledged the God of Israel as the greatest God but they blew it so God allowed the Medes and Persians to have the kingdom.

I look at it as everything God does is for the benefit of people so if He put some people down it was only because they were having a negative affect on other people that was out of hand and growing too big, so God dealt with it for the benefit of people that the negative affect was impacting.

God said He winked at the nations ignorance so He left them alone unless they were affecting people in a negative way on a big scale.

Also this world does not make sense for they will go to war to protect people but if God does it they want to cry about it.

And they do not make sense because mankind has committed many abortions, went to war taking out many people, and perverting people from the truth, and hurting people, mean, hateful, bitter, not caring about the poor and needy, slaughtering people, slavery, raping, pillaging, and more, but they want to talk about God.

And they do things to satisfy their own ways and lusts.

But if God does something that people think is not right they cry about it when if God does anything it is all in the interest of the protection and benefit of people, but many do not understand because they do not want to understand.

God is not going to do anything unless it has to do with the welfare of people benefiting them, which God said that fathers correct their children after their own pleasure, but God does it for our profit.

People want to believe what they want to believe and if they are against God then they will say things against Him all the while humanity has done terrible things not for the benefit of people in general in which the atheist is part of that world.

So if the atheist says God is cruel then how do they justify the world that they belong to that have done terrible things that is way more than what they think God did by their prejudice and biased mind because they do not want to believe in a God.

And this is interesting that they say that if there was no religions that the world would be a better place, and that is not true.

But we are going to find out that one in the future, and it will be the most terrible time ever in the history of mankind, and it is all because they took away a personal God and evolution is religion, and they can still evolve.

It is true that nations and kingdoms have been cruel, but because of their belief in a higher power they would also show compassion, so their belief in a higher power kept them at bay from their cruelty from getting too big.

And add to that many many people that believe in a higher power show forth a good behavior when dealing with other people with mercy and compassion because they believe God would want them to do that.

But if you take away religion, and a personal God, then you will open the door for the compassion and mercy of people to start to cease to exist and it will become much worse.

So if there is not a God, but people believe there is a God, it is better to believe there is a God even though it is false, than to not believe there is a God but it is true.

For it is because of the belief in a God that keeps people from getting too out of hand for they believe that God would want them to show some kind of compassion and mercy towards people.

Which an example is this that God warns us of the new age movement who interpret all religions according to the occult, and evolution, and people can still evolve to be greater and spiritual provided by the New Age Christ.

They do not believe in a personal God, but honor the God of forces, or the power of nature as their higher power.

The new age movement is the future for this world, and will pave the way to a kingdom that is established which all nations came together to try to establish peace on earth, and they went against everybody that held to the position of a personal God.

Which God said it is the worse kingdom in the history of mankind in cruelty towards everybody that opposes them and will do more damage than any other nation or kingdom, and the most arrogant and self exalting people in history.

And this is because the nations governments came together, and evolution is religion, and they cut out a personal God, and went against all people that opposed them, and there was no God to fear, no God to offend, no God to put them down for their cruelty, and no compassion and mercy to show representing God which creation testifies that God loves people.

So they will be cruel, and more cruel than any religions that have went against each other that believed in a personal God.

Because that is what happens when you take away a personal God it gets out of control in people exalting themselves, and being cruel.

All the Buddhists, and people of the Hindu religion, and religions like them that believe they should show forth love towards other people, gone in the future when the nations come together for they will eventually not believe in a personal God anymore and they will then be cruel where once they thought they should be love.

So the atheist can say what they want but they do not know what is going down in the future, and does not interpret the nature of God correctly when dealing with the Bible.

And what are we supposed to say Father forgive them for they know not what they do, but there is no forgiveness if they follow that kingdom in the future.

A traditional atheist is not for the supernatural so they will not play in to the new age movement that is atheist but spiritual, but they will follow them in the future for they will not be able to resist it, and they will buy in to the lie that we are still evolving, and that is the deception that they believe we are still evolving so they think they will be greater and spiritual in the future with power that is great, and that is their spirituality and prosperity.

Whispered · Nov 14, 2019

Quiettime said:

I'm sorry you are facing such conflict.
Perhaps one way to defend God in the Old Testament is to explain that at that time that God was a teacher and disciplinarian as a Sovereign ruler of a chosen people. The nation of Israel, the Hebrews, in the Old Testament scriptures.

Notice, when He picked someone to do His will they were not exactly the ideal image of a righteous person. God showed His kindness and His discipline of people who would appear not to be worthy of such things.

But it was all to deliver a message as pertained to the teachings of righteousness.

One example. Lot and his family in Sodom and Gomorrah. God made a bargain with Lot. That if he could find but ten righteous people in Sodom and Gomorrah, our Lord would not destroy the cities.

However, the only righteous people found ended up to be but Lot and his small family. God destroyed the cities because they were full of sin. They were founded by Canaan and grew though the efforts of his descendants and yet all manner of vice and sexual immorality occurred in those cities. It wasn't just that. The people were also idol worshipers, they were greedy, and prideful.

God told Lot and his family to flee the city, in the company of the two angels God sent to guide them to safety, and do not look back. Looking back is an expression of regret and God saving the family from sure destruction, there should be no regret in fleeing that. But Lot's wife did look back. And we're told she was turned to a pillar of salt.
Lot obeyed God, but his wife did not.

Later Lot's daughters got him drunk and had carnal relations with him so as to procreate. The sins of Sodom and Gomorrah for which God punished the city by destroying it, save for a small family that were let to escape, now in that small family the daughters of the family patriarch were expressing the same licentiousness as what Sodom and Gomorrah were known for and which caused their destruction under judgment.

If you read the Bible, Old Testament, as is, God can seem like a tyrant. But if you read deeper you may notice that there are lessons concerning righteousness, godly governance, etc... behind what occurs.

If you were a follower in Marcionism, you could tell those who make the inquiry you speak of that the god of the Old Testament was a Demiurge, and the God of the New was the actual God of the universe in Jesus.

But I wouldn't go that route. Although it may give those folks whom you did tell that a reason to get busy on the computer to find out who Marcion of Sinope was. And what the heck is a Demiurge.

Then the balls in their court.

dcontroversal · Nov 14, 2019

No one, especially a fool "atheist" can understand anything from the word of God unless

a. They are born again from above
b. They are enlightened by the Spirit of God which leads and guides into truth

In other words.....it is useless to argue or discuss anything except biblical salvation...and if they "buck" walk away and do not cast the truth to the ground in front of them.....do not waste God's time on fools that say there is no God!

Move on.....the field is ripe!

Nehemiah6 · Nov 15, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Paul walked away from the mocking Athenians, and Christians should simply walk way from mocking CLUELESS Atheists.

JesusLives · Nov 15, 2019

I usually tell them that God is a God of love. I don't argue with them because it does no good for anyone. They usually have an answer or comeback for anything you say.

Recently I posted a response to one here on the site who had been former Christian giving him this text and statement.

Whether you believe in God or not just know that He loves you and that He will pursue you because He is a God of love. Atheists usually bring up the OT at this time and toss out all the commanded killings God has made against pagan people. Or the Christians will throw up the big guns and say to the Atheist if you don't change you will burn...

I don't think either side had a good argument as both are throwing out fear to the other side.

I believe that God is a God of LOVE and anything He does toward us is to help us find our way back to Him for protection and safety. He gave His Son to die for us to bring us back into a relationship with Him what more could He have done for us?

Each person has to make a choice as God gave us a free will to choose.

Bible says it best:

Joshua 24:14-15 English Standard Version (ESV)
Choose Whom You Will Serve
14 “Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

So in your case it is who do you choose? The God of science or the Creator God? Simple

No matter what you choose God will still love and pursue you until the day you die.

I hope this will help you and continue to pray for them God never gives up and neither should we.

Heyjude · Nov 15, 2019

Hevosmies said:

Absolutely great answer. I often now challenge any Atheist who goes for me but saying "which part of the Bible don't you like?"

For instance, if you ask them how come Job knows so much about what scientists have only just found out, on how the world was made, yet this was the oldest book in the world, they look at you blankly. Because they are "run with the crowd" people who take a popular herdish view - you can guarantee that no one you are talking about knows the characters in the Bible or the stories or what they mean. This is my first port of call to test them as they will not know the Bible as you do for sure. I then say, " so you expect me to sit here and talk to you about a book you never read?" I even will tell them when they are proved ignorant on chapter and verse that they are a photocopy of other peoples ideas and don't think for themselves or seek any truth out if they know nothing on the Bible. How can they?

If they are particularly aggressive then I make the point that if I was to ask them to discuss Shakespeare and they claim they are an expert of it, yet they never read it, how stupid is that?

Magenta · Nov 15, 2019

Scripturally, we are asked to defend our faith, to always be ready to give an answer for the reason for the hope you have. I do understand how defending the Bible and the Truth of God's Word comes into these discussions with non-believers, and I am also familiar with their methods and their unabashed aim, which is to destroy faith. Personal empirical experience of the Holy Spirit working in my life is what led me to belief, and having had the experiences I did, I came to believe that the God I was running away from was the same One I was seeking in my search for Truth, embodied in the Person and Love of Jesus Christ. The Biblical promises of God are true, and my experiences of God are something nobody can take away from me. If you stand on that Rock, nothing they say can move you off of it. I pray your daughter comes to know God personally and profoundly.

notuptome · Nov 15, 2019

Quiettime said:

The questions that you pose are difficult and not easily explained especially to those who are dead set against God.

The issue of slavery requires a lengthy explanation. The slavery we relate to in the USA is not the slavery of the OT. Slavery is an illustration of mankind being enslaved to sin. It exists to show us how destructive our sin is to our freedom, liberty and happiness. When we become saved we are freed from our slavery to sin and place into the family of God. Many in the OT entered into slavery as a way to pay their debts and feed themselves. In a harsh reality we are almost every one of us in slavery to our debt and to the government by virtue of our taxes. Benign slavery is the best we can hope for in this world.

All of the savagery of the OT is an open example of the consequences of mans sin. Only the goodness of God holds back the consequences of sin or all would be destroyed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

dcontroversal · Nov 15, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

Fully agree....100%

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Feeling discouraged and defeated

Quiettime

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DB7

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Whispered

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