Question about new testament? ?

[Nehemiah6]

For a split second, I thought you might be serious.... then I realized it was too early in the day for you to be drinking. LOL

Now you are putting your unbelief on display. Just remember that even Balaam's donkey could recognize an angel when she saw him. But there were no donkeys taking the messages to the seven churches.

 

[Dan_473]

Lol but I thought it important to know this info. You know why
Because of its want to know
Why is apocryphian book existing
If the bible's Gospel is know
I know my question look ridiculous

I don't think your question looks ridiculous, I think it's a very important question.

Earlier I believe you wrote that Athanasius made the first list of the 27 books we use today. That's correct, and that was in 367 AD.

Why believe he picked out the right books? Well, since that time the vast majority of Christians have used those same books as the New testament, so it's a very old Christian tradition.

 

[Ghoti2]

Now you are putting your unbelief on display. Just remember that even Balaam's donkey could recognize an angel when she saw him. But there were no donkeys taking the messages to the seven churches.

You mean you actually think angels played mailman, and flew out to the island of Patmos to get the letters John was to write to those 7 churches.... and even addressed to the same 7 churches...… and delivered them to the churches?

 

[Jo2016]

I don't think your question looks ridiculous, I think it's a very important question.

Earlier I believe you wrote that Athanasius made the first list of the 27 books we use today. That's correct, and that was in 367 AD.

Why believe he picked out the right books? Well, since that time the vast majority of Christians have used those same books as the New testament, so it's a very old Christian tradition.

I read content of this letter he said that he made it to avoid gnostic Gospel who is

I don't think your question looks ridiculous, I think it's a very important question.

Earlier I believe you wrote that Athanasius made the first list of the 27 books we use today. That's correct, and that was in 367 AD.

Why believe he picked out the right books? Well, since that time the vast majority of Christians have used those same books as the New testament, so it's a very old Christian tradition.

Yeah so you agree me that it started at forth century right

I think that is why athanathius have title of apostle

 

[garee]

Who is gathering new testament into one book "bible" ????

The witness of God is greater than the witness of men . If all prophecy is God breathed under the authority that God moves men .Then the whole cannon follows the same pattern of faith. Like the noble Bereans' that heard Paul preach they were moved inwardly by the Holy Spirit to search out if they were of God or of men.

Men are quick to try and confirm it has something to do with them and even rise that witness above that which is written . But in the end of the matter it only show false pride .For what do we have that was not freely given and if so why boast as if not?

And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?1 Corinthians 4: 6-7

 

[garee]

Why would a donkey be involved when Christ sent seven angels to seven churches? Or don't you believe that that actually and literally happened?

Just as an angel appeared to Peter to release him from prison, angels took the messages to those seven churches and delivered them.

Donkeys as unclean animals represent unbelief in mankind. According to a ceremonial law a donkey must be redeemed by a lamb a clean animal or kill the donkey .

This is to show God is not served by human hands as a will in any way shape or form to include a serpent. God spoke through a Ass to show he is not served by human hands. . as if he who satisfies all things needed something from the clay he creates beasts (666) from.

He put his eternal words in the mouth of Balaam's donkey in the same way the father of lies put his lies on the lips of the serpent.

Coming in riding on a donkey simply shows God will not share his glory with the things seen. . the temporal. . rather than the invisible things of God. . the eternal.

 

[DB7]

Jo2016, this is a very big and complicated subject matter, too complex to write it all here.
But, in short, men moved by the Holy Spirit wrote the Gospels, Acts & Epistles approximately between 40ad to 90ad.
The Gospels and Acts are all anonymous, all Paul's letters are signed by him (13), the others, some are, some are not. Tradition gives authorship to the unsigned epistles.
No originals remain, only copies, earliest is 125ad, extremely fragmentary.
The only assurance that we have of canonicity and authorship, is what the theologians of the sub-apostolic age handed down.
Athanasius, because he's early, chronologically speaking, is why we give credence to his list, that holds the same for the rest of the uncertain aspects of the manuscripts. i.e. What started early and remained, is the best attestation that we have.
Forgeries abound everywhere, either pseudipigraphical (falsely authored) or deuterocanonical (uninspired).

There are more variants amongst the manuscript families than there are words in the Greek NT, there are various text types, various mediums (papyrus, parchment, vellum), and so on.

No apostle collected the manuscripts that had an impact on the canon today, the manuscripts were both dispersed and destroyed due to wear & tear, exchanging between churches, and persecution (Diocletion ruthlessly went after the manuscripts)

Appreciate the fact that we don't have a controlled and uniform heritage of the Bible, that's all I can say.
But, in my opinion, due to the tireless efforts of textual critics, and the overwhelming amount of extant manuscripts, we are as close as is necessary to the original autographs. Time will even bring us closer.

 

[Deuteronomy]

The earliest copy of the Gospel of John that we have on public display is the tiny papyrus fragment known as P52 (that you see pictured above). It contains John 18:31-33 on the front, and John 18:37-38 on the back, and it's dated from the 1st half of the 2nd Century, probably somewhere around 125 AD.

Here are the P52 Greek passages with the English translation below them.

Front
ΟΙ ΙΟΥΔΑΙΟΙ ΗΜΙΝ ΟΥΚ ΕΞΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΠΟΚΤΕΙΝΑΙ
OYΔΕΝΑ ΙΝΑ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΤΟΥ ΙΗΣΟΥ ΠΛΗΡΩΘΗ ΟΝ ΕΙ-
ΠΕΝ ΣHΜΑΙΝΩΝ ΠΟΙΩ ΘΑΝΑΤΩ ΗΜΕΛΛΕΝ ΑΠΟ-
ΘΝHΣΚΕΙΝ ΕΙΣΗΛΘΕΝ ΟΥΝ ΠΑΛΙΝ ΕΙΣ ΤΟ ΠΡΑΙΤΩ-
ΡΙΟΝ Ο ΠIΛΑΤΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΕΦΩΝΗΣΕΝ ΤΟΝ ΙΗΣΟΥΝ
ΚΑΙ ΕΙΠΕΝ ΑΥΤΩ ΣΥ ΕΙ O ΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣ ΤΩΝ ΙΟΥ-
ΔAΙΩN

the Jews, “For us it is not permitted to kill
anyone,” so that the word of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he sp-
oke signifying what kind of death he was going to
die. Entered therefore again into the Praeto-
rium Pilate and summoned Jesus
and said to him, “Thou art king of the
Jews?”

Back
ΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣ ΕΙΜΙ ΕΓΩ ΕΙΣ TOΥΤΟ ΓΕΓΕΝΝΗΜΑΙ
ΚΑΙ (ΕΙΣ ΤΟΥΤΟ) ΕΛΗΛΥΘΑ ΕΙΣ ΤΟΝ ΚΟΣΜΟΝ ΙΝΑ ΜΑΡΤY-
ΡΗΣΩ ΤΗ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ ΠΑΣ Ο ΩΝ EΚ ΤΗΣ ΑΛΗΘΕI-
ΑΣ ΑΚΟΥΕΙ ΜΟΥ ΤΗΣ ΦΩΝΗΣ ΛΕΓΕΙ ΑΥΤΩ
Ο ΠΙΛΑΤΟΣ ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ ΚAΙ ΤΟΥΤO
ΕΙΠΩΝ ΠΑΛΙΝ ΕΞΗΛΘΕΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΥΣ ΙΟΥ-
ΔΑΙΟΥΣ ΚΑΙ ΛΕΓΕΙ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ ΕΓΩ ΟΥΔEΜΙΑΝ
ΕΥΡΙΣΚΩ ΕΝ ΑΥΤΩ ΑΙΤΙΑΝ

a King I am. For this I have been born
and (for this) I have come into the world so that I would
testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth
hears of me my voice.” Said to him
Pilate, “What is truth?” and this
having said, again he went out unto the Jews
and said to them, “I find not one
fault in him.”​

Princeton Theological Seminary’s Bruce Metzger, one of the twentieth century’s most prominent scholars of New Testament Textual Criticism, described its importance in this way: “Just as Robinson Crusoe, seeing but a single footprint in the sand, concluded that another human being, with two feet, was present on the island with him, so P52 proves the existence and use of the Fourth Gospel during the first half of the second century in a provincial town along the Nile, far removed from its traditional place of composition (Ephesus in Asia Minor).”

The Word of God spread far from its source and it spread quickly. From this fragment we know that already in the first half of the second century there were Christians along the Nile and these Christians were reading the very same words of God that we read today. Just as we value those words and pore over them to promote both understanding and application, so too did our brothers and sisters from the earliest days. We can easily picture a Christian in ancient Egypt reading this account of Jesus’ trial and crucifixion, marveling at God’s grace, and praying that Christ would soon return. ~Author Tim Challies

P52 is, of course, only a copy of the John 18, as none of the NT Autographs have survived, but it shows us that copies of the Gospel were already in circulation during the early 2nd Century, which puts the writing of John's Autograph back into the latter part of the 1st Century.

~Deut

 

[Jo2016]

I don't think your question looks ridiculous, I think it's a very important question.

Earlier I believe you wrote that Athanasius made the first list of the 27 books we use today. That's correct, and that was in 367 AD.

Why believe he picked out the right books? Well, since that time the vast majority of Christians have used those same books as the New testament, so it's a very old Christian tradition.

You mean that there are more Gospel or what?

 

[DB7]

You mean that there are more Gospel or what?

Jo, the only testimony we have is that of faithful men, who knew they had sacred texts within their possession, that protected and preserved them as best as they could. The copying materials were extremely frail and rudimentary, persecution was intense, leadership was only local, ...basically, every man for himself.
But again, serious and dedicated men preserved what they could, and this tradition although dispersed, maintained what we have now, 39 books of the Tanakh, 27 of the New Testament. Catholic Bibles include 14 deuterocanonical (good for instruction, not inspired). To this day, certain authorship of the new testament is still in question by some i.e. Hebrews and 6 of Paul's letters.

In other words, the controversy has not ended, ...more manuscripts may be found, the severe letter to the Corinthians, and letter to the Laodiceans and Ephesians are missing, maybe more (see below)?! (there may be alternative explanations around these)
There is no God-given authorized canon and authorship of the Protestant Bible as we know it today. It varied in the past, and only tradition determined its authority, canonicity and authorship (Hebrews is still unsigned by title or content).

Colossians 4:16
4:16. After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.

2 Corinthians 2:3-4
2:3. I wrote as I did so that when I came I should not be distressed by those who ought to make me rejoice. I had confidence in all of you, that you would all share my joy. 4. For I wrote you out of great distress and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to grieve you but to let you know the depth of my love for you.

Eph. 3:2-3
3:2. Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3. that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly.

 

[Dan_473]

I read content of this letter he said that he made it to avoid gnostic Gospel who is

Yeah so you agree me that it started at forth century right

I think that is why athanathius have title of apostle

I think the question of what makes a person an apostle is interesting.

Barnabas is called an apostle here.

Acts 14: 14. But when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of it, they tore their clothes, and sprang into the multitude, crying out,

some people say the office of apostle ended with the death of the last of the twelve. Other people say the office of apostle continues on.

 

[Dan_473]

Jo2016, this is a very big and complicated subject matter, too complex to write it all here.
But, in short, men moved by the Holy Spirit wrote the Gospels, Acts & Epistles approximately between 40ad to 90ad.
The Gospels and Acts are all anonymous, all Paul's letters are signed by him (13), the others, some are, some are not. Tradition gives authorship to the unsigned epistles.
No originals remain, only copies, earliest is 125ad, extremely fragmentary.
The only assurance that we have of canonicity and authorship, is what the theologians of the sub-apostolic age handed down.
Athanasius, because he's early, chronologically speaking, is why we give credence to his list, that holds the same for the rest of the uncertain aspects of the manuscripts. i.e. What started early and remained, is the best attestation that we have.
Forgeries abound everywhere, either pseudipigraphical (falsely authored) or deuterocanonical (uninspired).

There are more variants amongst the manuscript families than there are words in the Greek NT, there are various text types, various mediums (papyrus, parchment, vellum), and so on.

No apostle collected the manuscripts that had an impact on the canon today, the manuscripts were both dispersed and destroyed due to wear & tear, exchanging between churches, and persecution (Diocletion ruthlessly went after the manuscripts)

Appreciate the fact that we don't have a controlled and uniform heritage of the Bible, that's all I can say.
But, in my opinion, due to the tireless efforts of textual critics, and the overwhelming amount of extant manuscripts, we are as close as is necessary to the original autographs. Time will even bring us closer.

I agree with what you're saying.

An interesting sidebar note, I think.

We know that Paul wrote a letter to the church at laodicea. What happened to it?

The best speculation among scholars, I believe, is that the book we call Ephesians was sent to several churches, including laodicea, and Paul just changed the name of the church at the beginning and maybe added some personal greetings at the end.

 

[Dan_473]

You mean that there are more Gospel or what?

Well, There were actually many books called gospels in the early days of Christianity.

This website
http://earlychristianwritings.com/
Has translations of lots of documents that circulated among
early Christians. Some are in the New testament we use today, some are pretty "wild". The person that runs that website it's kind of liberal, I believe, so the site has a liberal feel to it.

This link
http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon.html
Has loads of links on the subject of the Canon of scripture, which is kind of the official name for the subject you're talking about. It's a great site if you're interested in doing deep research.

I'm also glad to try to answer questions you have, if I can!

 

[Jo2016]

The earliest copy of the Gospel of John that we have on public display is the tiny papyrus fragment known as P52 (that you see pictured above). It contains John 18:31-33 on the front, and John 18:37-38 on the back, and it's dated from the 1st half of the 2nd Century, probably somewhere around 125 AD.

Here are the P52 Greek passages with the English translation below them.

Front​

ΟΙ ΙΟΥΔΑΙΟΙ ΗΜΙΝ ΟΥΚ ΕΞΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΠΟΚΤΕΙΝΑΙ​

OYΔΕΝΑ ΙΝΑ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΤΟΥ ΙΗΣΟΥ ΠΛΗΡΩΘΗ ΟΝ ΕΙ-​

ΠΕΝ ΣHΜΑΙΝΩΝ ΠΟΙΩ ΘΑΝΑΤΩ ΗΜΕΛΛΕΝ ΑΠΟ-​

ΘΝHΣΚΕΙΝ ΕΙΣΗΛΘΕΝ ΟΥΝ ΠΑΛΙΝ ΕΙΣ ΤΟ ΠΡΑΙΤΩ-​

ΡΙΟΝ Ο ΠIΛΑΤΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΕΦΩΝΗΣΕΝ ΤΟΝ ΙΗΣΟΥΝ​

ΚΑΙ ΕΙΠΕΝ ΑΥΤΩ ΣΥ ΕΙ O ΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣ ΤΩΝ ΙΟΥ-​

ΔAΙΩN​

​

the Jews, “For us it is not permitted to kill​

anyone,” so that the word of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he sp-​

oke signifying what kind of death he was going to​

die. Entered therefore again into the Praeto-​

rium Pilate and summoned Jesus​

and said to him, “Thou art king of the​

Jews?”​

​

Back​

ΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣ ΕΙΜΙ ΕΓΩ ΕΙΣ TOΥΤΟ ΓΕΓΕΝΝΗΜΑΙ​

ΚΑΙ (ΕΙΣ ΤΟΥΤΟ) ΕΛΗΛΥΘΑ ΕΙΣ ΤΟΝ ΚΟΣΜΟΝ ΙΝΑ ΜΑΡΤY-​

ΡΗΣΩ ΤΗ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ ΠΑΣ Ο ΩΝ EΚ ΤΗΣ ΑΛΗΘΕI-​

ΑΣ ΑΚΟΥΕΙ ΜΟΥ ΤΗΣ ΦΩΝΗΣ ΛΕΓΕΙ ΑΥΤΩ​

Ο ΠΙΛΑΤΟΣ ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ ΚAΙ ΤΟΥΤO​

ΕΙΠΩΝ ΠΑΛΙΝ ΕΞΗΛΘΕΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΥΣ ΙΟΥ-​

ΔΑΙΟΥΣ ΚΑΙ ΛΕΓΕΙ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ ΕΓΩ ΟΥΔEΜΙΑΝ​

ΕΥΡΙΣΚΩ ΕΝ ΑΥΤΩ ΑΙΤΙΑΝ​

​

a King I am. For this I have been born​

and (for this) I have come into the world so that I would​

testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth​

hears of me my voice.” Said to him​

Pilate, “What is truth?” and this​

having said, again he went out unto the Jews​

and said to them, “I find not one​

fault in him.”​

Princeton Theological Seminary’s Bruce Metzger, one of the twentieth century’s most prominent scholars of New Testament Textual Criticism, described its importance in this way: “Just as Robinson Crusoe, seeing but a single footprint in the sand, concluded that another human being, with two feet, was present on the island with him, so P52 proves the existence and use of the Fourth Gospel during the first half of the second century in a provincial town along the Nile, far removed from its traditional place of composition (Ephesus in Asia Minor).”

The Word of God spread far from its source and it spread quickly. From this fragment we know that already in the first half of the second century there were Christians along the Nile and these Christians were reading the very same words of God that we read today. Just as we value those words and pore over them to promote both understanding and application, so too did our brothers and sisters from the earliest days. We can easily picture a Christian in ancient Egypt reading this account of Jesus’ trial and crucifixion, marveling at God’s grace, and praying that Christ would soon return. ~Author Tim Challies

P52 is, of course, only a copy of the John 18, as none of the NT Autographs have survived, but it shows us that copies of the Gospel were already in circulation during the early 2nd Century, which puts the writing of John's Autograph back into the latter part of the 1st Century. Yeah but there was also people still believe in myth like gnostic and have mysterious book and they made book named after

~Deut

I think the question of what makes a person an apostle is interesting.

Barnabas is called an apostle here.

Acts 14: 14. But when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of it, they tore their clothes, and sprang into the multitude, crying out,

some people say the office of apostle ended with the death of the last of the twelve. Other people say the office of apostle continues on.

I think the question of what makes a person an apostle is interesting.

Barnabas is called an apostle here.

Acts 14: 14. But when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of it, they tore their clothes, and sprang into the multitude, crying out,

some people say the office of apostle ended with the death of the last of the twelve. Other people say the office of apostle continues on.

I think apostle is acquired by succession for example Saint mark assign Anianus and papacy startand the same happened after Saint Peter died

 

[Dan_473]

To this day, certain authorship of the new testament is still in question by some i.e. Hebrews and 6 of Paul's letters.

I had read that the authorship of second John and third John is also controversial.

What's your opinion?

 

[Dan_473]

I think apostle is acquired by succession for example Saint mark assign Anianus and papacy startand the same happened after Saint Peter died

I think that would be a view held by most Catholics and Eastern Orthodox people today.

I think most people here on Christian chat, however, will probably say that the office of apostle ended back in the first century.

 

[DB7]

I had read that the authorship of second John and third John is also controversial.

What's your opinion?

Yes, agreed, ..for brevity I only mentioned a few to get the point across. But yes, that's my understanding also that 2nd & 3rd John's authorship is questioned by some scholars. ....And more controversy than that, Esther was disputed for a long time as being inspired and canon, equally Revelation, Song of Songs, etc... Not all reached canonicity at the same time, for various reasons...

 

[Jo2016]

I think that would be a view held by most Catholics and Eastern Orthodox people today.

I think most people here on Christian chat, however, will probably say that the office of apostle ended back in the first century.

Lord Jesus assign Peter to rule all the nation and
How church will continue after his death
For example in bible said after Saint Paul leave place he assign ruler to do the same rule of him by holy spirit

 

[Dan_473]

Lord Jesus assign Peter to rule all the nation and
How church will continue after his death
For example in bible said after Saint Paul leave place he assign ruler to do the same rule of him by holy spirit

Which place in the Bible are you talking about where Paul assigns someone to take his place?

 

[Sipsey]

The earliest manuscripts we have of major portions of the New Testament are p45, p46, p66, and p75. These have been dated between A.D. 175 and A.D. 250 So this leaves a gap of about one hundred years between the autographs of the New Testament and the earliest existing fragments of the New Testament.

• The early Church Fathers (A.D. 97 –180) through their quotations from the New Testament bear witness to even earlier New Testament manuscripts. They quoted from twenty-eight out of the twenty-nine New Testament books.

Although there is a 250–300 year gap between the time of the original complete New Testament manuscript and the first complete copies that still exist, this gap is bridged by the quotations of the New Testament made by the early church leaders.

Over 86,000 quotations from the New Testament have been noted in the writings of the early Church Fathers. Christians believe that it is in God’s providence that the text of the New Testament has been preserved in both quality and quantity, unlike any other document from antiquity.