WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

[UnderHisWing]

What is the rapture? Where is it explained in the Word? Thank you...God bless you.

'

Perhaps looking at the three harvests could help. What some call the rapture, in the word there are harvests. The Feast of Firstfruits, Pesach, Passover is the Barley Harvest. Messiah was first fruits. Rev 14:4 says the 144,000 are firstfruits unto God and the Lamb. Firstfruits is YHWH, God's portion. Yahushua, Jesus was the portion belonging to God. The final harvest will begin with firstfruits. Following this is the Wheat Harvest. This harvest is of the Bride of Christ. This is the Son's portion. Lastly is the Grape Harvest which represents Israel the Wife of God as in Jeremiah 31, Isaiah 54, and others. At the Grape Harvest, Israel receives Her Promised Land and Promised King of Kings in the MK for 1000 years.

See if this is something you can consider. There are countless references to the meaning of the harvests and who is represented in them. Thank you for asking the question. This is how I see it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

What did JESUS say about His return? I looked up some of the words of Jesus to see what He said.

John 18:20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort and in secret have I said nothing

Pretty much everything that Jesus said UP TO and INCLUDING His "Olivet Discourse" referred to His Second Coming TO THE EARTH *for* the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth). I believe every reference you followed up with, concerns THAT (rather than our Rapture 'IN THE AIR').

But Jesus also had told His disciples in His "UPPER ROOM Discourse"... "I have YET MANY THINGS to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. BUT WHEN..." .... "and He will shew you the things coming".

And we also see Jesus FOLLOWING His resurrection, being seen ONLY by carefully chosen witnesses (who were to go on a TELL others of this FACT that they have been WITNESS to [His resurrection, that it had indeed occurred]).

So when Jesus had said, "and in secret I have said nothing," this speaks of His earthly ministry BEFORE His death... I don't think it necessarily HAS TO include what He spoke with His disciples and carefully chosen witnesses (all disciples) over the course of those "some 40 days" following His resurrection (and ONLY THEM).

Here's a post I made awhile back, which is how I see the way things went, and what that means in view of the point you are seeming to want to make in using that verse (quoted in your post, above):

[quoting my post--keep in mind it was in the context of a different convo altogether, but it somewhat relates here, as well]

Since [as I believe] Jesus "[actively] ASCENDED" on the very day of His resurrection [per what He said to MM in John 20:17] (that is, ON "FIRSTFRUIT," thus fulfilling Lev23:10-12 [see also 1Cor15:20!]) and only some "40-days" later "went up into Heaven" VISIBLY--and that no one except carefully chosen witnesses SAW Him during those "40 days"--in the Acts 1 passage (reflective of His VISIBLE "RETURN" to the earth [Rev19 (Rev1:7 also)])... then I'm not sure what problem there would be with Him descending for "the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" at one point in time, and then having His "RETURN" to the earth at a separate point in time. In fact, I see this [what I just pointed out] as the template, or "pattern" (of that future time-frame), with "40" often meaning "testing/trial/judgment"-type things... so the pattern holds!

See what I'm getting at?

[...<snip>...]

[and]

Meant to say:

"Why would it be a problem for Jesus to descend for "the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" involving "the Church which is His body" […] AND at His Second Coming to the earth, both?? [TDW: then I gave the example of what took place during the 40-day interval from His "Resurrection Day [ON FIRSTFRUIT/Lev23:10-12 (His 'ACTIVE ascension' Jn20:17)]" and His later VISIBLE going up into Heaven in Acts 1 (<--THIS to be like His RETURN to the earth)]…"

[end quoting those past posts of mine]

Now, this is not meant to be a primary argument for my "pre-trib stance" (my viewpoint), there are more DIRECT passages that speak to it... I'm just saying that this a one of the [/a number of] SUPPORTING arguments, esp [this one] as it relates to the point you seem to be making above.

The word "RETURN" (used biblically) speaks specifically of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (and NOT of our Rapture)

 

[Adstar]

Actually the 144 k are found in heaven in rev14
They are firstfruits.
Firstfruit Jews.

They precede those gathered later by Jesus on a cloud.

Angels now preach the gospel .

The last groups are now in heaven for the supper

(See the parable of the wedding guests...several different gatherings)

Revelation 14 reference:

Revelation 14: KJV
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.


Deuteronomy 4: KJV
48 From Aroer, which is by the bank of the river Arnon, even unto mount Sion, which is Hermon,

Mount Sion is Mount Hermon and mount Hermon is on earth.. Not in heaven..

 

[DeighAnn]

The word "RETURN" (used biblically) speaks specifically of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (and NOT of our Rapture)

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:23 But take ye heed behold, I have foretold you all things.
This I believe.

ANY doctrine that has a person, or group or what ever either "SAVING AND/OR JUDGING AND/OR SKIPPING JUDGEMENT" of themselves is FALSE. Period. There is only one who saves and judges. NO belief, no matter what it is, will ever allow this process to be changed.

I have asked time and time again for SOMEONE, ANYONE TO bring me this doctrine in the Scripture.
And I receive the exact same thing every time.

A PIECE MEAL PUT TOGETHER BY MAN.
And what does this false doctrine do?
They try to save themselves and skip death and judgement ALONG with rendering ALOT of Gods Word VAIN, NULL AND VOID.

WE have been given NO DOCTRINE BY CHRIST about HIM COMING BACK BEFORE the 2nd ADVENT. We are given the exact opposite.


It is not a "DOCTRINE" TO BE FOUND written in the Word of God and what are we told of that????
2 John 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth
2 John 1:2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
2 John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
2 John 1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
2 John 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed
2 John 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
2 John 1:12 Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.
2 John 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

Are we told He is coming back a 2nd time??? Yes, quite a few places. Are we told He is coming for a 3rd time???? NO WHERE.
Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Hebrews 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Does this sound confusing? Does the "rapsure theory" NEGATE that statement? Yes it does. So is it NOT GODS TRUTH. That would be impossible. GODS TRUTH IS WITHOUT FLAW. And do you know just how many verses that "theory" turns into a lie???????

AT THE END OF THIS AGE, AS THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST SO STATES, there are some who will not taste of death. WHY? HIS ELECT and the 144,000 and those who did not take "the mark", having JUST COME THROUGH SATANS TRIBULATION, are the only "group" that will be changed. And why this group? They obeyed God. They withstood the fiery darts of Satan. They overcame. THEY didn't take THE MARK OF THE BEAST. They endured unto the end. They were tested, and tribulated, and they stood firm and sure for God.

That "judgement" is super simple. Got a mark, don't get to go be with the Lord forever, got a mark, you are headed over to the other side of the uncross able river. The Lords Day is beginning, and the lord of Lords and the king of Kings will have EVERY KNEE BOW.

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise and shall shew signs and wonders to seduce if it were possible even the elect.
Mark 13:23 But take ye heed behold, I have foretold you all things.
This I believe. ALL THINGS. If it wasn't there then, it isn't here now. That is Gods Word.


Luke 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ and the time draweth near go ye not therefore after them.
Are we told someone is coming who will profess themselves to be and to even "stand where they ought not" yes. And what are we told to do??? go ye not therefore after them.


I agree He speaks of His returning to earth. Because that is what He is going to do. He never speaks of a rapture, because He isn't. It is just a theory that was made up by "man".

If "rapsure" was in fact true, it would be written out in the same manner as His return is. So I ask you the same as I ask everyone, Please give me scripture. For some reason when it comes to a pre trib, no one has any problem picking out the verses that either apply to something entirely NOT to do with it or verses that "could" be taken to mean.....like

He comes as a thief in the night.
But of that hour no one knows.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Isaiah 45:19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
Isaiah 45:20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour there is none beside me.
Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Isaiah 45:24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Isaiah 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.


Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or lo, he is there believe him not

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

WHAT IS THIS WARNING FOR IF THE CHURCH WILL BE GONE? IS IT TO THOSE WHO HAVE NEVER READ? NEVER HEARD? how is that a "seduction"? That is just a "following". IF EVEN GODS ELECT COULD BE SEDUCED, then GODS Whole CHURCH has got to be here.

Mark 13:23 But take ye heed behold, I have foretold you all things.
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

 

[Absolutely]

departure/falling away/ apostasy All the world ALONG with all those good Christians, will DEPART from loving the True Christ.

How can that be?

Because they will believe that the "false Christ" is the true Christ and will be worshipping him instead. THEY FALL AWAY FROM THE TRUE CHRIST BY DECEPTION. They depart from Him NOT KNOWING THEY ARE. That is the "great falling away"

This is a "spiritual" war, not a flesh war. There is a fight for you soul. Not in the funky movie way but in THE ETERNAL LIFE WAY. What does Satan want? To deceive those who "say" they are, and to prove, they AREN"T. He hates God. He hates Gods children. He can promise everything, he can deliver nothing but death. He has been sentenced to die. He is looking to take as many with him as he can. The only thing he has is lies and deception. And he is THE BEST THERE EVER HAS BEEN OR EVER WILL BE. He has been working on the four hidden dynasties since Cain. They are almost all set up and ready for HIs time.

There is only one way to not be deceived. THE TRUTH OF GODS WORD. And you can rest sure, knowing he has been working THIS area hardest. These are the "prize" to him. The world, yeah, but Gods professed children, YEAH.

Intersesting that in your mind the departing ones in the rapture can not be refered to as "departing"

Your entire understanding ignores that.

...and actually, and bizarrely, depends on it.

 

[Absolutely]

Revelation 14 reference:

Revelation 14: KJV
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.


Deuteronomy 4: KJV
48 From Aroer, which is by the bank of the river Arnon, even unto mount Sion, which is Hermon,

Mount Sion is Mount Hermon and mount Hermon is on earth.. Not in heaven..

Keep reading.....
3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

Note their time on earth referred to as past tense;
4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

Firstfruits
They are firstfruit Jews.
They are the first Jewish group taken from the earth,after the gentile bride is gathered.. That is their designation. The time of the gentiles ended at the beginning of the gt and now,in "jacobs touble" they are the first group to heaven "firstfruits" or firstfruit jews.
After they are harvested or raptured the "one on a cloud,Jesus,harvests/gathers the rest of the jews as "ripefruit"

 

[Absolutely]

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:23 But take ye heed behold, I have foretold you all things.
This I believe.

ANY doctrine that has a person, or group or what ever either "SAVING AND/OR JUDGING AND/OR SKIPPING JUDGEMENT" of themselves is FALSE. Period. There is only one who saves and judges. NO belief, no matter what it is, will ever allow this process to be changed.

I have asked time and time again for SOMEONE, ANYONE TO bring me this doctrine in the Scripture.
And I receive the exact same thing every time.

A PIECE MEAL PUT TOGETHER BY MAN.
And what does this false doctrine do?
They try to save themselves and skip death and judgement ALONG with rendering ALOT of Gods Word VAIN, NULL AND VOID.

WE have been given NO DOCTRINE BY CHRIST about HIM COMING BACK BEFORE the 2nd ADVENT. We are given the exact opposite.


It is not a "DOCTRINE" TO BE FOUND written in the Word of God and what are we told of that????
2 John 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth
2 John 1:2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
2 John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
2 John 1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
2 John 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed
2 John 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
2 John 1:12 Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.
2 John 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

Are we told He is coming back a 2nd time??? Yes, quite a few places. Are we told He is coming for a 3rd time???? NO WHERE.
Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Hebrews 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Does this sound confusing? Does the "rapsure theory" NEGATE that statement? Yes it does. So is it NOT GODS TRUTH. That would be impossible. GODS TRUTH IS WITHOUT FLAW. And do you know just how many verses that "theory" turns into a lie???????

AT THE END OF THIS AGE, AS THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST SO STATES, there are some who will not taste of death. WHY? HIS ELECT and the 144,000 and those who did not take "the mark", having JUST COME THROUGH SATANS TRIBULATION, are the only "group" that will be changed. And why this group? They obeyed God. They withstood the fiery darts of Satan. They overcame. THEY didn't take THE MARK OF THE BEAST. They endured unto the end. They were tested, and tribulated, and they stood firm and sure for God.

That "judgement" is super simple. Got a mark, don't get to go be with the Lord forever, got a mark, you are headed over to the other side of the uncross able river. The Lords Day is beginning, and the lord of Lords and the king of Kings will have EVERY KNEE BOW.

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise and shall shew signs and wonders to seduce if it were possible even the elect.
Mark 13:23 But take ye heed behold, I have foretold you all things.
This I believe. ALL THINGS. If it wasn't there then, it isn't here now. That is Gods Word.


Luke 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ and the time draweth near go ye not therefore after them.
Are we told someone is coming who will profess themselves to be and to even "stand where they ought not" yes. And what are we told to do??? go ye not therefore after them.


I agree He speaks of His returning to earth. Because that is what He is going to do. He never speaks of a rapture, because He isn't. It is just a theory that was made up by "man".

If "rapsure" was in fact true, it would be written out in the same manner as His return is. So I ask you the same as I ask everyone, Please give me scripture. For some reason when it comes to a pre trib, no one has any problem picking out the verses that either apply to something entirely NOT to do with it or verses that "could" be taken to mean.....like

He comes as a thief in the night.
But of that hour no one knows.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Isaiah 45:19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
Isaiah 45:20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour there is none beside me.
Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Isaiah 45:24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Isaiah 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.


Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or lo, he is there believe him not

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

WHAT IS THIS WARNING FOR IF THE CHURCH WILL BE GONE? IS IT TO THOSE WHO HAVE NEVER READ? NEVER HEARD? how is that a "seduction"? That is just a "following". IF EVEN GODS ELECT COULD BE SEDUCED, then GODS Whole CHURCH has got to be here.

Mark 13:23 But take ye heed behold, I have foretold you all things.
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

under your mis understanduing God will not recognise the blood of Jesus over your life. WE are either forgiven or are not forgiven.

Read the parable of the unjust servant.

He was TOTALLY forgiven. Totally.
Then,as a forgiven servant,he mistreated others in his same dilemma.(did not forgive)

So,as it is vividly depicted,those saved entities that continue in sin,do in fact get judged.

Go back and read the 7 letters to the seven churches.
In a nutshell if no holy walk,no reward.

Your doctrine is some harsh non applicable dynamic to those WALKING HOLY.

AHEM....THE BRIDE.

 

[Absolutely]

Scripture says "the righteous man is judged of no one,but he himself judges all things."

You got a knack for overstepping your position due to ignoring the whole picture.

 

[Absolutely]

The word "RETURN" (used biblically) speaks specifically of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (and NOT of our Rapture)

1) not true at all.
2) you have to assume(which you do) that Jesus coming to gather any group,necessitates his touching earth's surface.

He can not do what he does in one specific time frame.(the second coming at the end of the gt)

no rationale can reconcile it. It is impossible.

he,in fact raptures the church pretrib at the rapture. That is the only position that harmonises.

Your bizarre changing of the word is proof.

Your problem ,as all postrib adheants,is you don't test fit your verses.
You do not,and refuse to incorporate my verses.

 

[Absolutely]

You say "Jesus gathers a group DURING THE GT" I say He doesn't until HIS COMING ENDS THE GT.

You would have to PROVE THE WORD SAYS DURING. I have proved many times HIS COMING BEGINS THE LORDS DAY,

WHEN ALL WILL BE CHANGED.

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field

Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Matthew 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers,

Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them but gather the wheat into my barn.

Harvesting the Earth and Trampling the Winepress
14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man[b] with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

Very damaging to your position.
In fact it proves you guy's position is poorly thought out.

Now before you try and change what it says,go back about 5 paragraphs and take a look the 144k IN HEAVEN IMMEDIATELY BEFORE THE "RIPE FRUIT"

So,not only are they harvested,but the 144k are harvested before them.

postrib rapture is shot down.

DOA

 

[DeighAnn]

BEFORE SATAN is cast to earth, there is a war going on in HEAVEN, and when Satan doesn't prevail, him and his angels are cast to earth.

DOES JESUS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WAR IN HEAVEN JUST STOP TO COME AND PICK YOU UP FOR A WEDDING??






Please, just give me the one verse where I would insert this "Rapture Theory"
Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Absolutely]

Revelation 14 reference:

Revelation 14: KJV
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.


Deuteronomy 4: KJV
48 From Aroer, which is by the bank of the river Arnon, even unto mount Sion, which is Hermon,

Mount Sion is Mount Hermon and mount Hermon is on earth.. Not in heaven..

There are 2 jerusalems (heaven and earth)

There are 2 arks (heaven and earth)

there are 2 temples (heaven and earth)

In rev 14 we see Sion in heaven.(heaven and earth)

 

[Absolutely]

BEFORE SATAN is cast to earth, there is a war going on in HEAVEN, and when Satan doesn't prevail, him and his angels are cast to earth.

DOES JESUS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WAR IN HEAVEN JUST STOP TO COME AND PICK YOU UP FOR A WEDDING??






Please, just give me the one verse where I would insert this "Rapture Theory"
Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

All we see is satan cast down,the Jews chased by him and the jews ushered into protection.

 

[Absolutely]

...great verses my friend.

 

[Absolutely]

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:23 But take ye heed behold, I have foretold you all things.
This I believe.

ANY doctrine that has a person, or group or what ever either "SAVING AND/OR JUDGING AND/OR SKIPPING JUDGEMENT" of themselves is FALSE. Period. There is only one who saves and judges. NO belief, no matter what it is, will ever allow this process to be changed.

I have asked time and time again for SOMEONE, ANYONE TO bring me this doctrine in the Scripture.
And I receive the exact same thing every time.

A PIECE MEAL PUT TOGETHER BY MAN.
And what does this false doctrine do?
They try to save themselves and skip death and judgement ALONG with rendering ALOT of Gods Word VAIN, NULL AND VOID.

WE have been given NO DOCTRINE BY CHRIST about HIM COMING BACK BEFORE the 2nd ADVENT. We are given the exact opposite.


It is not a "DOCTRINE" TO BE FOUND written in the Word of God and what are we told of that????
2 John 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth
2 John 1:2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
2 John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
2 John 1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
2 John 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed
2 John 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
2 John 1:12 Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.
2 John 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

Are we told He is coming back a 2nd time??? Yes, quite a few places. Are we told He is coming for a 3rd time???? NO WHERE.
Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Hebrews 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Does this sound confusing? Does the "rapsure theory" NEGATE that statement? Yes it does. So is it NOT GODS TRUTH. That would be impossible. GODS TRUTH IS WITHOUT FLAW. And do you know just how many verses that "theory" turns into a lie???????

AT THE END OF THIS AGE, AS THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST SO STATES, there are some who will not taste of death. WHY? HIS ELECT and the 144,000 and those who did not take "the mark", having JUST COME THROUGH SATANS TRIBULATION, are the only "group" that will be changed. And why this group? They obeyed God. They withstood the fiery darts of Satan. They overcame. THEY didn't take THE MARK OF THE BEAST. They endured unto the end. They were tested, and tribulated, and they stood firm and sure for God.

That "judgement" is super simple. Got a mark, don't get to go be with the Lord forever, got a mark, you are headed over to the other side of the uncross able river. The Lords Day is beginning, and the lord of Lords and the king of Kings will have EVERY KNEE BOW.

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise and shall shew signs and wonders to seduce if it were possible even the elect.
Mark 13:23 But take ye heed behold, I have foretold you all things.
This I believe. ALL THINGS. If it wasn't there then, it isn't here now. That is Gods Word.


Luke 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ and the time draweth near go ye not therefore after them.
Are we told someone is coming who will profess themselves to be and to even "stand where they ought not" yes. And what are we told to do??? go ye not therefore after them.


I agree He speaks of His returning to earth. Because that is what He is going to do. He never speaks of a rapture, because He isn't. It is just a theory that was made up by "man".

If "rapsure" was in fact true, it would be written out in the same manner as His return is. So I ask you the same as I ask everyone, Please give me scripture. For some reason when it comes to a pre trib, no one has any problem picking out the verses that either apply to something entirely NOT to do with it or verses that "could" be taken to mean.....like

He comes as a thief in the night.
But of that hour no one knows.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Isaiah 45:19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
Isaiah 45:20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour there is none beside me.
Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Isaiah 45:24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Isaiah 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.


Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or lo, he is there believe him not

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

WHAT IS THIS WARNING FOR IF THE CHURCH WILL BE GONE? IS IT TO THOSE WHO HAVE NEVER READ? NEVER HEARD? how is that a "seduction"? That is just a "following". IF EVEN GODS ELECT COULD BE SEDUCED, then GODS Whole CHURCH has got to be here.

Mark 13:23 But take ye heed behold, I have foretold you all things.
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

as always you figure out how to spin verses into a doctrine.

you get an A on verses
An f on interpreting and making up meanings

 

[Absolutely]

Absolutely said:


In another verse the tares are gathered SECOND

But of course that little. Fact rips your deal up.

Makes you not have a case...once again.

Don't you understand, it is not my case, not my deal? It is Gods Truth.

You have made your choice. Cool.
If you had any explanation for the questions I have posed, you would have brought them. You have not.

This is just great way of getting Gods Truth out. Anyone reading these 17 pages can make an informed decision on what has been presented, what has been answered, what has not and decide for themselves. Real Cool.

LOL
you are so caught up on "deal" the substance and factoid alludes you.

Like I said another verse has the tares burned second.
You have no case once again.

 

[Absolutely]

but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved,

How can this and what you say BOTH be GODS TRUTH? It is confusion. God is not the author of confusion. How much of Gods word are you willing to see rendered vain?

Apparently you think in your mind that ONLY the ones alive at the second coming at the end of the gt are saved.

Since you say you will be martyred,that kinda excludes you huh?

And all those believers of the past in america that lived in peacetime,with an easy life as saved believers,would be in jeopardy also huh?

It is impossible to miss that that is referring to EVERYBODYS earthly walk.

 

[Absolutely]

You have yet to address The 2nd Thess letter or the false doctrine "teaching to fly away" to save their souls in Ezek 13 is referring to. Or how you can "fly away" and yet be here to overcome. And how it is even spelled out for one of the churches how "some of them will be brought up for a 10 day trial" or A single verse where there is a "difference" of reference between the two supposed events. You seem to believe you can add meaning, change meaning, and make the Word void, and it is ok. You keep bringing up a verses and ASSIGNING A TIME TO THEM to fit a doctrine you believe in, even though in place after place we are told NOT UNTIL after.

Don't be deceived. Don't be taken. Don't be harvested out of season. Put on the armor to withstand the fiery darts. Some will have 10 day trial. He that overcomes. Woe to those with child and give suck. Don't wish godspeed. Don't worry what you will say, take heed to yourselves do not premeditate, but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit, the brother shall betray the brother to death

Jesus used pretrib dynamics.

Lot,Noah.

you are oblivious to the absence of lot being rescued POSTRIB
AND Noah not rescued post flood/trib.

that and a myriad of verses you change are great indicators you have no interest in unpacking truth.

The baby Jesus himself rescued/removed pretrib.

The "One taken" in matthew is peacetime
The 10 virgins...peacetime
Noah...peacetime
Lot peacetime
Under you template,you MUST HAVE A WARTIME DESTROYED EARTH SETTING.

Either the bible is wrong or you are wrong.

 

[Absolutely]

It is not my doctrine of ONLY 2 ADVENTS.

Harvesting the Earth and Trampling the Winepress
14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man[b] with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

LOL
Take it up with Jesus return during the gt to gather the Jews. "ripe fruit"

 

[DeighAnn]

Apparently you think in your mind that ONLY the ones alive at the second coming at the end of the gt are saved.

Since you say you will be martyred,that kinda excludes you huh?

And all those believers of the past in america that lived in peacetime,with an easy life as saved believers,would be in jeopardy also huh?

It is impossible to miss that that is referring to EVERYBODYS earthly walk.

From where have you come up with that? You seem to think there is a final death, not just a flesh death before the lake of fire but
as the WORD OF GOD TELLS US
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I don't know but it seems you do not have an understanding between death of the flesh and death of the soul. Or maybe you don't understand we have two bodies. Or maybe you do not understand resurrection.

You make an UNTRUE statement about my belief
"Apparently you think in your mind that ONLY the ones alive at the second coming at the end of the gt are saved".
(apparently you are not comprehending what I am saying)

and then you add another UNTRUE STATEMENT
"Since you say you will be martyred,that kinda excludes you huh?"
(though I would be willing to stand up for God, it would not exclude)

and then you add your
"And all those believers of the past in america that lived in peacetime,with an easy life as saved believers,would be in jeopardy also huh?
It is impossible to miss that that is referring to EVERYBODYS earthly walk"
(from the untruthful way you have put this across, that would fit to you)

What you have written has nothing to do with what I have stated or of my actual beliefs.

Please, be more careful.