WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?
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Good day DeighAnn!
The error that you and others continue to make is three fold.
1). Not recognizing that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as being two separate events
2). Not recognizing the difference between trails and tribulation which com at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness vs. God's coming wrath
3). Not recognizing the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments
You repeatedly misapply scriptures regarding the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to establish His kingdom.
According to John 14:1-3, Jesus said that in His Father house were many dwelling places and He was going there to prepare a place for us. And He said that He was coming back to get the church to take us back to those places in the Father's house. The Father's house could be none other than heaven. 1 Thess.4:13-18 is detailed account of His return to get the church.
The gathering of the church
When the Lord appears to gather the church, He will at that time not be returning to the earth, but will call the church up, dead and alive, immortal and glorified, to meet Him in the air. At that time He will take the entire church, His bride, back to the Father's house as promised. This is when believers will be judged at the Bema seat of Christ, not for our sins, but for works done in the body.
The Lord's return to the earth to end the age
After completion of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have taken place, the Lord, along with those whom He will have previously gathered and the angels, will descend to the earth to end the age and establish His kingdom on the earth. This is the event that Matt.24:30-31 and Rev.1:7 is referring to and not the gathering of the church, which will have taken place several years prior.
I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and I Cor.15:51-53 is referring to the fulfilment of John 14:1-3 when the Lord appears in the atmosphere and calls up the church and take them back to the Father's house, which takes place prior to the opening of the first seal and which initiates God's wrath. These two scriptures have nothing to do with Matt.24:30-31.
In Matt.24:31, it is said that the angels will go out and will gather the elect from the four corners of the earth, which means that they will be gathering those who will have made it through the entire wrath of God alive. According to the parable in Matt.13:30, the weeds are collected first and taken to Armageddon to be killed by that double-edged sword that will proceed from the Lord's mouth, which is symbolic representing the word of God. At that time all the birds that will have been gathered together by that angel will gorge themselves on their flesh, as described in Rev.19:17
The wrath of God
Jesus took upon himself God's wrath that all believers deserve, satisfying it completely. When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God, which means that we were brought back into a right relationship with Him. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer, not to mention that we have multiple scriptures which state that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and will be kept out of it (Romans 5:9, I Thess.1:10, 5:9, Rev.3:10).
By the time the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled. This is supported by Matt.24:15-22, when Jesus said regarding that time period
"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short."
If those days were allowed to go on any longer than the amount of time stated, no one on earth would be left alive. That is how bad that period is going to be, unequaled to any disaster that has previously taken place. All of this must happen prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and you and others are saying that the Lord is going to put His church, His bride, those who have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God, to be put through all of His wrath, right along with the wicked?
I can guarantee you that, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. The church will be removed prior to God's coming wrath.
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Uh,no,"he that endures to the end..." Is simply referring to every believer persevering through trials.
Has nothing to do with the rapture being pretrib.
It is your postrib blinders that put that nonissue in there.
You even deny you did it.
My post is truth and you are getting way out there with mis alighned verses.
The enduring to the end verse is yet another misalignment
Has nothing to do with the rapture being pretrib.
It is your postrib blinders that put that nonissue in there.
You even deny you did it.
My post is truth and you are getting way out there with mis alighned verses.
The enduring to the end verse is yet another misalignment
Absolutely said:
You are hard core post trib.
Hard hard core.
You a re not at all studying or sytematically processing verses.
Changing verses to fit a debunked position is not rightly dividing.
You can not answer to my verses,therefore you put red exes oll over my posts.
My job is to incorporate the word without changing and misaligning verses.
So your only option is to show me where i am wrong or the bible is wrong.
You are painted into a corner with the peacetime setting of the rapture and the 2 gatherings in rev 14,plus the saints in geaven as well as the bride becoming the wife in heaven.
But you really have to go hard core changing with rev 14.
That chapter is the final nail in the postrib coffin.
It is old tired debunked doctrine.
I can easily defend against it.
Plus on the flip side there is zero supporting or pointing to a postrib rapture
Nada
You are hard core post trib.
Hard hard core.
You a re not at all studying or sytematically processing verses.
Changing verses to fit a debunked position is not rightly dividing.
You can not answer to my verses,therefore you put red exes oll over my posts.
My job is to incorporate the word without changing and misaligning verses.
So your only option is to show me where i am wrong or the bible is wrong.
You are painted into a corner with the peacetime setting of the rapture and the 2 gatherings in rev 14,plus the saints in geaven as well as the bride becoming the wife in heaven.
But you really have to go hard core changing with rev 14.
That chapter is the final nail in the postrib coffin.
It is old tired debunked doctrine.
I can easily defend against it.
Plus on the flip side there is zero supporting or pointing to a postrib rapture
Nada
Ok,found your quote,
""but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved,
How can this and what you say BOTH be GODS TRUTH? It is confusion. God is not the author of confusion. How much of Gods word are you willing to see rendered vain? ""
You clearly are framing it as i pointed out.
Are you really denying what you did.?
I dont play that mess sis
""but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved,
How can this and what you say BOTH be GODS TRUTH? It is confusion. God is not the author of confusion. How much of Gods word are you willing to see rendered vain? ""
You clearly are framing it as i pointed out.
Are you really denying what you did.?
I dont play that mess sis
The Satans Tribulation is not Gods Wrath.
Christians have been feed to lions, made into roman candles, crucified, beheaded, boiled in oil, thrown into furnaces etc. None of those ever called for a "rapture" of the Church. What horrible things can todays church not go through?
Satan is coming to deceive. If you know Gods word you wont be deceived. Some may be killed. Why is it Michael and his angels can fight against Satan in heaven but " this last generation", needs to be taken to heaven?
So, how is it you know you will be "raptured" and you are not actually one of Gods elect? What if a bunch of Gods elect think they will be "taken out of the game" but they are actually left in it? I think my question is, how do you know you will?
Christians have been feed to lions, made into roman candles, crucified, beheaded, boiled in oil, thrown into furnaces etc. None of those ever called for a "rapture" of the Church. What horrible things can todays church not go through?
Satan is coming to deceive. If you know Gods word you wont be deceived. Some may be killed. Why is it Michael and his angels can fight against Satan in heaven but " this last generation", needs to be taken to heaven?
So, how is it you know you will be "raptured" and you are not actually one of Gods elect? What if a bunch of Gods elect think they will be "taken out of the game" but they are actually left in it? I think my question is, how do you know you will?
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Where are we told BY GOD, that this takes place prior to the Trib? Isn't this exactly what Gods elect should receive? are they to be left out and if not, why do it twice?
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Where are we told BY GOD, that this takes place prior to the Trib? Isn't this exactly what Gods elect should receive? are they to be left out and if not, why do it twice?
This are the exact verses I have been waiting for someone to give me. Finally. That Jesus is returning to gather
"the bride" before Satan arrives, and return to heaven, then come back for the Lords Day, because I have never found them.
Please, give me Christs doctrine on this. And if you wouldn't mind, if you just give Chapter and verse, in the best order to read it, that would be great.
comes back for Lords Day
with the bride
having returned to heaven
gather the bride before Satan kicked out of heaven
and calls up "the church"
and take them back to the Father's house,
which takes place prior to the opening of the first seal
and which initiates God's wrath.
Did you get that quote above from these verses?
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
The whole world will believe he is God, he has brought peace (fake) to the world. Because when does sudden destruction come? WHEN YOU HEAR PEACE AND SAFETY. How will the world feel peace and safety if Satan is going around killing everyone?
If those days were allowed to go on any longer than the amount of time stated, no one on earth would be left alive. That is how bad that period is going to be, unequaled to any disaster that has previously taken place. All of this must happen prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and you and others are saying that the Lord is going to put His church, His bride, those who have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God, to be put through all of His wrath, right along with the wicked?
I can guarantee you that, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. The church will be removed prior to God's coming wrath.
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Just more false information! Of course those who take the mark will have bodies, for they will be people on the earth.
The first death is the death of the body. At the resurrection which takes place at the great white throne judgment at the end of the millennial kingdom. At that time, the unrighteous dead will also receive resurrected bodies, albeit mete for their punishment.
Life and death are both states of eternal existence dependent upon an individuals state of being with God.
The first death is the death of the body. At the resurrection which takes place at the great white throne judgment at the end of the millennial kingdom. At that time, the unrighteous dead will also receive resurrected bodies, albeit mete for their punishment.
Life and death are both states of eternal existence dependent upon an individuals state of being with God.
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Did you read anything that I posted. I already gave you all of the related scriptures from post #363. However, here they are again:
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The gathering of the church
When the Lord appears to gather the church, He will at that time not be returning to the earth, but will call the church up, dead and alive, immortal and glorified, to meet Him in the air. At that time He will take the entire church, His bride, back to the Father's house as promised. This is when believers will be judged at the Bema seat of Christ, not for our sins, but for works done in the body.
The Lord's return to the earth to end the age
After completion of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have taken place, the Lord, along with those whom He will have previously gathered and the angels, will descend to the earth to end the age and establish His kingdom on the earth. This is the event that Matt.24:30-31 and Rev.1:7 is referring to and not the gathering of the church, which will have taken place several years prior.
I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and I Cor.15:51-53 is referring to the fulfilment of John 14:1-3 when the Lord appears in the atmosphere and calls up the church and take them back to the Father's house, which takes place prior to the opening of the first seal and which initiates God's wrath. These two scriptures have nothing to do with Matt.24:30-31.
In Matt.24:31, it is said that the angels will go out and will gather the elect from the four corners of the earth, which means that they will be gathering those who will have made it through the entire wrath of God alive. According to the parable in Matt.13:30, the weeds are collected first and taken to Armageddon to be killed by that double-edged sword that will proceed from the Lord's mouth, which is symbolic representing the word of God. At that time all the birds that will have been gathered together by that angel will gorge themselves on their flesh, as described in Rev.19:17
The wrath of God
Jesus took upon himself God's wrath that all believers deserve, satisfying it completely. When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God, which means that we were brought back into a right relationship with Him. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer, not to mention that we have multiple scriptures which state that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and will be kept out of it (Romans 5:9, I Thess.1:10, 5:9, Rev.3:10).
By the time the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled. This is supported by Matt.24:15-22, when Jesus said regarding that time period
"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short."
If those days were allowed to go on any longer than the amount of time stated, no one on earth would be left alive. That is how bad that period is going to be, unequaled to any disaster that has previously taken place. All of this must happen prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and you and others are saying that the Lord is going to put His church, His bride, those who have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God, to be put through all of His wrath, right along with the wicked?
Please look at all the scriptures that I provied.
===================================================================================================
The gathering of the church
When the Lord appears to gather the church, He will at that time not be returning to the earth, but will call the church up, dead and alive, immortal and glorified, to meet Him in the air. At that time He will take the entire church, His bride, back to the Father's house as promised. This is when believers will be judged at the Bema seat of Christ, not for our sins, but for works done in the body.
The Lord's return to the earth to end the age
After completion of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have taken place, the Lord, along with those whom He will have previously gathered and the angels, will descend to the earth to end the age and establish His kingdom on the earth. This is the event that Matt.24:30-31 and Rev.1:7 is referring to and not the gathering of the church, which will have taken place several years prior.
I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and I Cor.15:51-53 is referring to the fulfilment of John 14:1-3 when the Lord appears in the atmosphere and calls up the church and take them back to the Father's house, which takes place prior to the opening of the first seal and which initiates God's wrath. These two scriptures have nothing to do with Matt.24:30-31.
In Matt.24:31, it is said that the angels will go out and will gather the elect from the four corners of the earth, which means that they will be gathering those who will have made it through the entire wrath of God alive. According to the parable in Matt.13:30, the weeds are collected first and taken to Armageddon to be killed by that double-edged sword that will proceed from the Lord's mouth, which is symbolic representing the word of God. At that time all the birds that will have been gathered together by that angel will gorge themselves on their flesh, as described in Rev.19:17
The wrath of God
Jesus took upon himself God's wrath that all believers deserve, satisfying it completely. When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God, which means that we were brought back into a right relationship with Him. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer, not to mention that we have multiple scriptures which state that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and will be kept out of it (Romans 5:9, I Thess.1:10, 5:9, Rev.3:10).
By the time the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled. This is supported by Matt.24:15-22, when Jesus said regarding that time period
"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short."
If those days were allowed to go on any longer than the amount of time stated, no one on earth would be left alive. That is how bad that period is going to be, unequaled to any disaster that has previously taken place. All of this must happen prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and you and others are saying that the Lord is going to put His church, His bride, those who have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God, to be put through all of His wrath, right along with the wicked?
Please look at all the scriptures that I provied.
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All of those deeds were not the wrath of God that the Church went through
When the Lamb opens the seals, thats God's wrath, which believers are not here for.
What horrible things you ask? Read the trumpets and vials, they are no walk in the park. No flesh would be saved, this is going to be the worst time ever.
When the Lamb opens the seals, thats God's wrath, which believers are not here for.
What horrible things you ask? Read the trumpets and vials, they are no walk in the park. No flesh would be saved, this is going to be the worst time ever.
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By using the term "Satan's tribulation" tells me that you are simply repeating well know false apologetics. I have heard this and contended against this teaching many times. The scripture that you are referring to regarding Satan's wrath, is only reference to when he is cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth. It is at this time and for that reason that he is full of wrath. It does not mean that the tribulation is Satan's wrath. It just means that he becomes angry during of God's wrath and because he and his angels will no longer be allowed in heaven. Satan and his angels being cast to the earth is in fact the results of the 7th trumpet/3rd woe, which extends throughout the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. It's all God's wrath and He utilizes Satan and the powers to carry out that wrath.
God's coming wrath will last seven years and will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Once the church has been gathered by the Lord and the antichrist establishes his seven covenant, then will begin God's wrath, the day of the Lord. Everything that happens during that time, including the beasts kingdom, is apart of God's wrath. There is no wrath of Satan.
If you would have read my previous post, you would have seen that I was being proactive and had already answered this question. You are not recognizing the difference between the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have which come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness vs. the unprecedented coming wrath of God, also known as "the Day of the Lord." The apostles and the first century Christians being tortured, fed to the lions, etc., was not due to the wrath of God, but came at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. However, God's coming wrath upon this earth in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will come directly from God. It is this wrath that believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer. Your error is not discerning between these two. To be clear, there are presently believers all over the world who are being killed daily, but it is not through the wrath of God, but through the persecution and tribulation that Jesus said believers would have.
First of all, how do you know that I am not one God's elect? And second, anyone who belongs to Jesus is God's elect or chosen. It simply means those whom God chose before the world began. And I know that I will be resurrected or changed and caught up, because it is Jesus' promise to all believers. Paul called it "our blessed hope."
The purpose of gathering the church from the earth, is to remove us prior to God pouring His wrath, which will come upon the whole earth, the arrogant, the proud, the sexually immoral, liars, slanders, drunkards and everyone is willfully living according to the sinful nature and all who have rejected Christ.
Therefore, all of those having faith, who are watching and ready, will be changed and caught up. However, the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are still alive will be changed and caught up with them (I Thess.4:13-17). Anyone who is having faith will not be left behind.
God's coming wrath will last seven years and will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Once the church has been gathered by the Lord and the antichrist establishes his seven covenant, then will begin God's wrath, the day of the Lord. Everything that happens during that time, including the beasts kingdom, is apart of God's wrath. There is no wrath of Satan.
If you would have read my previous post, you would have seen that I was being proactive and had already answered this question. You are not recognizing the difference between the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have which come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness vs. the unprecedented coming wrath of God, also known as "the Day of the Lord." The apostles and the first century Christians being tortured, fed to the lions, etc., was not due to the wrath of God, but came at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. However, God's coming wrath upon this earth in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will come directly from God. It is this wrath that believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer. Your error is not discerning between these two. To be clear, there are presently believers all over the world who are being killed daily, but it is not through the wrath of God, but through the persecution and tribulation that Jesus said believers would have.
First of all, how do you know that I am not one God's elect? And second, anyone who belongs to Jesus is God's elect or chosen. It simply means those whom God chose before the world began. And I know that I will be resurrected or changed and caught up, because it is Jesus' promise to all believers. Paul called it "our blessed hope."
The purpose of gathering the church from the earth, is to remove us prior to God pouring His wrath, which will come upon the whole earth, the arrogant, the proud, the sexually immoral, liars, slanders, drunkards and everyone is willfully living according to the sinful nature and all who have rejected Christ.
Therefore, all of those having faith, who are watching and ready, will be changed and caught up. However, the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are still alive will be changed and caught up with them (I Thess.4:13-17). Anyone who is having faith will not be left behind.
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