Should unrepentant cohabitation (shacking up) result in church discipline and disfellowshipment?

[notuptome]

No, actually you are not dense. I have a faulty memory. I should have remembered this as I submitted it today.

So, the situation is that I am on "sabbatical" from this parachurch ministry due to some frustrations I've had. I can't fully discuss them, but a portion of the frustration involves the lack of fruit in the people that I was helping. Admittedly they are a high risk group (addicts for the most part) anyways. My approach has been to lead them to a relationship with Christ, if they don't have one, and the tremendous resources for the individual whose identity is in Christ. My co-workers in this ministry have different views (some are charismatic or Pentecostals, others are KJV Only, others are prophecy nuts). My focus is on salvation alone and the benefits that come from it.

So, my frustration is the lack of positive results. I have a friend who is a Christian counselor, though, and he told me in the last day that I needed to keep my focus on Jesus and not on the results. I know that I'm giving them good instruction, as much of it was guided by my friend, and he knows what he's talking about. It is largely related to what it means to have a gospel identity.

Let me give you some help. A long time missionary friend of mine just remarked how when he was young and a pastor of a local church he was dealing with a similar condition. He came to realize in consultation with more experienced pastors that he was correct in the doctrine he was giving his people but he was injuring them in the delivery. He likened it to delivering the word of God with a slingshot. He was bruising them and failing to comfort them with Gods word. Compassion and empathy for people is essential to teach the word of God. Just being correct is not enough one must remember that they and the ones they minister to are people not machines.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

(By my exclamation point after "withdraw fellowship" (in my above quote) I did not mean to sound aggravated or snotty, I was agreeing with you with emphasis. I hope I didn't offend. And yes, cohabitating means the same in my culture for I live in the USA too. Lol. It is easy for misunderstandings to occur in writing, because you cannot hear voice intonation or see facial expressions. Just wanted to clarify in case you thought I was being testy.)



I can sympathize with your frustration. This has been something I've thought about lately. (I am getting so off topic from your thread. Please forgive me! 😊) Not to sound disrespectful toward God, but why is there not more repentance, salvation, growth and sinlessness? Long story short, remember Jim Elliott. He gave his life for those Ecuadorian people. I don't think there was much fruit borne while he was alive (while he could SEE it), but after he died there was! Brother, your counselor friend's advice was sound. Look to Jesus and not the results or lack of results. Perhaps this is a test to prove whether or not you will remain faithful to speaking God's Truth even when there appears to be little fruit. Part of the fruit comes from your own heart and how you will respond to this trial. 😌 Remember the prophets in the Old Testament. Most people didn't listen to them. But God called them to sound the warning anyway. Sound the warning and tell of the means of salvation and trust God with the rest. Look for things to be thankful for..that helps me.

Okay, I'll stop now. Lol

Thanks for the convo.

Actually the head of this ministry talked to me yesterday and I'm pretty sure I will continue after I get some lessons prepared. I was doing the ministry in a financially irresponsible way and that caused part of the stress.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Let me give you some help. A long time missionary friend of mine just remarked how when he was young and a pastor of a local church he was dealing with a similar condition. He came to realize in consultation with more experienced pastors that he was correct in the doctrine he was giving his people but he was injuring them in the delivery. He likened it to delivering the word of God with a slingshot. He was bruising them and failing to comfort them with Gods word. Compassion and empathy for people is essential to teach the word of God. Just being correct is not enough one must remember that they and the ones they minister to are people not machines.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

That can be true. My pastor said that you can be 100% accurate and 0% effective due to your delivery.

I don't think that's the case with me. In fact, many like my approach but it doesn't seem to make long term differences. Plus, at a certain level, you need to be aggressive in the environment I am in. They would mistaken gentleness for a lack of confidence. There are different approaches for different people. Most Christians wouldn't even step into this environment due to fear.

 

[EliBeth]

Thanks for the convo.

Actually the head of this ministry talked to me yesterday and I'm pretty sure I will continue after I get some lessons prepared. I was doing the ministry in a financially irresponsible way and that caused part of the stress.

You're very welcome. Thanks for allowing me, and for receiving it.
That's it! March On ye soldiers of the Cross! And that's good that you acknowledged a shortcoming and will try to make changes. That's what we are called to do every day. 🙂 God bless the work of your hands in the ministry field.

 

[Jackson123]

Easy question...

Should unrepentant cohabitation (shacking up), defined as enjoying the sexual benefits of marriage outside of marriage, be a cause for church discipline and disfellowshipment?

And, if someone is involved in it, and is allowed to stay within the fellowship, does that disqualify him as a teacher?

Additionally, how would your answer be affected if the person was not a member of the church, but was a regular attender long-term?

Here's why I am asking. I have a friend that I care about. He's attending some kind of Arminian church that apparently believes it is fine to cohabitate. The pastor knows about the situation, presumably, because his pastor is a facebook friend of both individuals.

The woman he is cohabitating with is also a member of this Arminian church.

I met the guy as I was working in a parachurch ministry related to recovery. He was one of the people I was attempting to help. To be honest, it's quite frustrating when someone seems to be making progress as a new believer, but then gets involved in something like that.

He is actually involved in addictions recovery (which was his main issue) with his church group. He goes into the jail environment and is involved in presenting lessons to them related to recovery.

Perhaps this is denomination-oriented. Is this normal in Arminian churches? I know that Reformed Baptist churches would discipline someone who was involved in this, due to their high view of God's law.

I find it bizarre that any church could be so blind that they don't know that cohabitation is a work of the flesh. And, I thought the guy was in good hands with this pastor. It seems like for all of the Arminian talk about holiness, to me, it is nothing but hot air.

How you discipline non member?

I believe that kind of sin is common among young people today. Some do not know that this is a sin.

If people ask me what verse is say one must have license for living together, honestly I do not know.

The young generation think, as long as you do it with one partner and not cheat each other, that is fines.

When I was young, there was a lady being discipline from my church because of that. Now I never hear this again.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

How you discipline non member?

I believe that kind of sin is common among young people today. Some do not know that this is a sin.

If people ask me what verse is say one must have license for living together, honestly I do not know.

The young generation think, as long as you do it with one partner and not cheat each other, that is fines.

When I was young, there was a lady being discipline from my church because of that. Now I never hear this again.

The only discipline of a non-member would be to ask them not to come to services anymore.

 

[presidente]

Yes, if they are fornicating and not repenting.

But disfellowship doesn't need a 'ment' on it IMO.

 

[Hevosmies]

Yes it should!

Easy question...

Should unrepentant cohabitation (shacking up), defined as enjoying the sexual benefits of marriage outside of marriage, be a cause for church discipline and disfellowshipment?

And, if someone is involved in it, and is allowed to stay within the fellowship, does that disqualify him as a teacher?

Additionally, how would your answer be affected if the person was not a member of the church, but was a regular attender long-term?

Here's why I am asking. I have a friend that I care about. He's attending some kind of Arminian church that apparently believes it is fine to cohabitate. The pastor knows about the situation, presumably, because his pastor is a facebook friend of both individuals.

The woman he is cohabitating with is also a member of this Arminian church.

I met the guy as I was working in a parachurch ministry related to recovery. He was one of the people I was attempting to help. To be honest, it's quite frustrating when someone seems to be making progress as a new believer, but then gets involved in something like that.

He is actually involved in addictions recovery (which was his main issue) with his church group. He goes into the jail environment and is involved in presenting lessons to them related to recovery.

Perhaps this is denomination-oriented. Is this normal in Arminian churches? I know that Reformed Baptist churches would discipline someone who was involved in this, due to their high view of God's law.

I find it bizarre that any church could be so blind that they don't know that cohabitation is a work of the flesh. And, I thought the guy was in good hands with this pastor. It seems like for all of the Arminian talk about holiness, to me, it is nothing but hot air.

I work with many people in recovery and I have a heart for inmates and them getting saved. I know all about that ins and outs. These people need TOUGH LOVE; they dont need to be patted on the head and told Jesus loves you, THATS NOT GONNA WORK. Trust me, how do I know? cause thats what I saw them other prison ministers do, and people STAY in their addiction, STAY in their sins, STAY in the rut they are in. The ONLY WAY to get out of that PIT is through establishing a STRICT daily program for these people to follow. Leisure and free time is the enemy of an addict / prisoner / former street dude

I see a lot of confusion in general which i used to be a massive part of! Chasing that LEISURE life, that pleasure chasing lifestyle that only WEAKENS us, the comfort that we seek that weakens us. The second we get into a hard situation, HERE COMES THE TEARS, HERE IT COMES, straight "DING" FOLD UP time!

We dont even PARTAKE in that right now. A REAL MAN, constructs a mindset strenghtening DAILY PROCESS through WORSHIP, WORKING and WORKOUT, this is why we wake up at a certain time, conduct ourselves in a certain way, you get stronger by doing what you couldn't do yesterday. Nobody wants to go hard every single day, thats why we do it, to build a CHARACTER that God can then USE for His glory. To be there for the BRETHREN to push them, to motivate them, to inspire them, to HELP THEM in their daily life, to help them OVERCOME in the faith, to help them get closer to God, to help them in secular things like MOVING and GROCERY shopping if they are sick. To help our elderly people in the church, to participate in soul-winning, to assist the Pastors of our churches, to minister to the ones in prison, to give people STRUCTURE in their life.

One thing people in prison need is STRUCTURE, people in the "lifestyle" of the streets, need the structure more than anything and I have so far had a 100% success rate with people who STICK to a program. Not ONE has relapsed, but surprise, the ones who did not stick to the program RELAPSED because they failed to do what is NEEDED to overcome. CANT BLAME GOD FOR THAT.
Just like I was close to BREAKDOWN recently, if it wasnt for God using dcon telling me a relief to my infection I would of probably GAVE UP but I kept going praise THE LORD. I believe all things happen for a reason I believe in PREDESTINATION and what I went through helps me be more HUMBLE while at the same time STICKING to what I know WORKS in the lives of these inmates.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Yes it should!

I work with many people in recovery and I have a heart for inmates and them getting saved. I know all about that ins and outs. These people need TOUGH LOVE; they dont need to be patted on the head and told Jesus loves you, THATS NOT GONNA WORK. Trust me, how do I know? cause thats what I saw them other prison ministers do, and people STAY in their addiction, STAY in their sins, STAY in the rut they are in. The ONLY WAY to get out of that PIT is through establishing a STRICT daily program for these people to follow. Leisure and free time is the enemy of an addict / prisoner / former street dude

I see a lot of confusion in general which i used to be a massive part of! Chasing that LEISURE life, that pleasure chasing lifestyle that only WEAKENS us, the comfort that we seek that weakens us. The second we get into a hard situation, HERE COMES THE TEARS, HERE IT COMES, straight "DING" FOLD UP time!

We dont even PARTAKE in that right now. A REAL MAN, constructs a mindset strenghtening DAILY PROCESS through WORSHIP, WORKING and WORKOUT, this is why we wake up at a certain time, conduct ourselves in a certain way, you get stronger by doing what you couldn't do yesterday. Nobody wants to go hard every single day, thats why we do it, to build a CHARACTER that God can then USE for His glory. To be there for the BRETHREN to push them, to motivate them, to inspire them, to HELP THEM in their daily life, to help them OVERCOME in the faith, to help them get closer to God, to help them in secular things like MOVING and GROCERY shopping if they are sick. To help our elderly people in the church, to participate in soul-winning, to assist the Pastors of our churches, to minister to the ones in prison, to give people STRUCTURE in their life.

One thing people in prison need is STRUCTURE, people in the "lifestyle" of the streets, need the structure more than anything and I have so far had a 100% success rate with people who STICK to a program. Not ONE has relapsed, but surprise, the ones who did not stick to the program RELAPSED because they failed to do what is NEEDED to overcome. CANT BLAME GOD FOR THAT.
Just like I was close to BREAKDOWN recently, if it wasnt for God using dcon telling me a relief to my infection I would of probably GAVE UP but I kept going praise THE LORD. I believe all things happen for a reason I believe in PREDESTINATION and what I went through helps me be more HUMBLE while at the same time STICKING to what I know WORKS in the lives of these inmates.

I talked to the guy recently because I saw that he is now marrying the woman he is living with.

I told him I was concerned about that situation. He said he figured I was, and that his heart was in the right place.

Well, I didn't tell him this exactly, but our hearts are deceitfully wicked. Even after we have been regenerated, and given a new nature that wants to please and love God, we deceive ourselves into thinking our "heart is in the right place" even when we are engaging in sin.

I know that I do it myself sometimes, and I know that he was doing it

Anyways, though, he is getting married to her. I hope he is not going to put it off a long time. But, I am super glad that he is getting married to her.

The problem with my ministry to addicted persons is that I only talked to them during a brief period of their lives, and then they go on to churches which may or may not be solid. Only a few contact me after that.

By the way, I believe in "perseverance of the saints" or "preservation of the Holy Spirit", so if someone is a real believer, I am convicted that God will bring them to repentance in such circumstances. David committed murder (in essence) as well as adultery, and he suffered some pretty bad consequences due to his rebellion. God knows how to deal with his elect

 

[Ghoti2]

I find it interesting that the usual questions are mostly along the lines of: "Can we punish them?", rather than "How can I help or reach them?" It is encouraging to hear you are trying.

 

[Ghoti2]

Yes it should!

I work with many people in recovery and I have a heart for inmates and them getting saved. I know all about that ins and outs. These people need TOUGH LOVE; they dont need to be patted on the head and told Jesus loves you, THATS NOT GONNA WORK. Trust me, how do I know? cause thats what I saw them other prison ministers do, and people STAY in their addiction, STAY in their sins, STAY in the rut they are in. The ONLY WAY to get out of that PIT is through establishing a STRICT daily program for these people to follow. Leisure and free time is the enemy of an addict / prisoner / former street dude

I see a lot of confusion in general which i used to be a massive part of! Chasing that LEISURE life, that pleasure chasing lifestyle that only WEAKENS us, the comfort that we seek that weakens us. The second we get into a hard situation, HERE COMES THE TEARS, HERE IT COMES, straight "DING" FOLD UP time!

We dont even PARTAKE in that right now. A REAL MAN, constructs a mindset strenghtening DAILY PROCESS through WORSHIP, WORKING and WORKOUT, this is why we wake up at a certain time, conduct ourselves in a certain way, you get stronger by doing what you couldn't do yesterday. Nobody wants to go hard every single day, thats why we do it, to build a CHARACTER that God can then USE for His glory. To be there for the BRETHREN to push them, to motivate them, to inspire them, to HELP THEM in their daily life, to help them OVERCOME in the faith, to help them get closer to God, to help them in secular things like MOVING and GROCERY shopping if they are sick. To help our elderly people in the church, to participate in soul-winning, to assist the Pastors of our churches, to minister to the ones in prison, to give people STRUCTURE in their life.

One thing people in prison need is STRUCTURE, people in the "lifestyle" of the streets, need the structure more than anything and I have so far had a 100% success rate with people who STICK to a program. Not ONE has relapsed, but surprise, the ones who did not stick to the program RELAPSED because they failed to do what is NEEDED to overcome. CANT BLAME GOD FOR THAT.
Just like I was close to BREAKDOWN recently, if it wasnt for God using dcon telling me a relief to my infection I would of probably GAVE UP but I kept going praise THE LORD. I believe all things happen for a reason I believe in PREDESTINATION and what I went through helps me be more HUMBLE while at the same time STICKING to what I know WORKS in the lives of these inmates.

I worked for 24 years with both recently convicted Sex Offenders, and those also released from prison after serving sometimes years and years.

I doubt I could disagree more with your outlook.

 

[Hevosmies]

I doubt I could disagree more with your outlook.

Get ready for those guys to FAIL miserably. Seen it all before, the understanding loving approach NEVER has worked, didn't work for me, didnt' work in the long run for ANYONE that I know, every person is different but we aren't talking flower hat ladies here whose biggest sin is gossiping, we are talking OGs and SAVAGES.

Not surprised you disagree, you love arguing in favor of sin when it comes to other topics as well, so your opinion holds no weight. Thanks for the disagree tho, its good to know what you think, makes me realize how important it is for people who have actually done time to reach out to people.

Also, I dont work with "PC" DROPOUTS, those guys are doing time in the LIZARD section SHOOK to the core they are NO GOOD, got bad paperwork and cant walk the yard, RATS, even the charges you mentioned in your post... man.. I work with "GP" general population, MAIN LINE!

 

[Hevosmies]

I work with "GP" general population, MAIN LINE!

Correction: I work with EVERYONE who hears the Gospel, and believes it. What I meant by saying that in my post was: If you decide to work with that crowd of PC people, you are automatically looked down upon by the LARGER population which is the GP pop. Its about NUMBERS really, you want to reach AS MANY AS POSSIBLE with the Gospel, with credibility, no folding!

 

[Ghoti2]

Get ready for those guys to FAIL miserably. Seen it all before, the understanding loving approach NEVER has worked, didn't work for me, didnt' work in the long run for ANYONE that I know, every person is different but we aren't talking flower hat ladies here whose biggest sin is gossiping, we are talking OGs and SAVAGES.

Not surprised you disagree, you love arguing in favor of sin when it comes to other topics as well, so your opinion holds no weight. Thanks for the disagree tho, its good to know what you think, makes me realize how important it is for people who have actually done time to reach out to people.

Also, I dont work with "PC" DROPOUTS, those guys are doing time in the LIZARD section SHOOK to the core they are NO GOOD, got bad paperwork and cant walk the yard, RATS, even the charges you mentioned in your post... man.. I work with "GP" general population, MAIN LINE!

With an attitude like yours about those Jesus asked us to love and try to reach for Him, I hope you don't do too much damage to them before they run across someone who cares about them.

 

[kaylagrl]

If they are flaunting their situation Yes. If not, let God deal with them and pray for their Salvation.

They cannot be participating member of the church.

 

[kaylagrl]

What about gossips, busybodies, church skippers, those that never cook or bring food to the potlucks, unruly deacons that think they run the churches, preachers that tickle ears desiring to be tickled, the members caught buying lottery tickets, oh yeah...and the women that wear jeans, have short hair, and kids with nose studs, tattoos..........

Those that don't bring food to the potlucks are the worst!!

 

[kaylagrl]

Please be aware that I am concerned more with the corrective value of church discipline/disfellowshipment. My desire is that he repents.

I didn't find out about his cohabitation until recently. The woman's daughter died in a house fire, and he informed me that he was living with the mother so he had grown quite fond of the child. It isn't the right time for me to mention this issue as the funeral is tomorrow and they are still grieving.

However, I will very likely talk to him about it and tell him what a big disappointment this is to me personally. I had hopes that perhaps a few people were helped by the parachurch ministry activity, and he was actually someone that I had a lot of hopes for.

We had this issue in our church. A couple was living together and she got pregnant. Then some of the women in the church wanted to give her a baby shower. Our pastor said no. He went and talked to the couple and told them what they were doing was wrong. He told them they needed to get married. They were offended and left the church. The pastor got up the next Sunday and explained what he had told the couple and that they had chosen to leave. I know our pastor did it with a heart of love. They didn't want to hear the truth. Pity.

 

[Ghoti2]

For those of you who don't know "Prison Lingo", the "PC" he is referring to is Protective Custody. Those prisoners are confined in a separate location from other prisoners for a variety of reasons that would put their safety (even their lives) in danger if the average prisoner could get to them..

 

[NayborBear]

By the way, I have found that this tendency to claim one is holier than others, yet to be involved in immorality, is common amongst Judaizers too.

I talked to one Judaizer (Sabbath/festivals/clean met guy) who was degrading Christians who meet on Sunday. Turns out he was shacking up with a woman. Another one isn't married to the woman he's been living with for decades, and has children with.

Amazing. All it takes is a marriage license and a little time to get married. There's really no excuse for shacking up, and dishonoring God in this way, if one claims to be a Christian.

.....and then, there's the story (more true, then one may think, these days) of 2 christian retired persons living together, on "fixed incomes." She, off her husbands pension and SS. And he, living off SS only.

Upon "marriage", she would lose her deceased husbands pension and SS, as she, herself was not eligible, for any benefits of her own "gainful employment", as she was a "house Mom", and hadn't worked a day in her life.

Should these people be "dis-associated" from "the church" as well?

Oh!
Ya mean there are "exceptions?"

I agree, that what you are saying are "weaknesses/desires" of flesh, and we should not "love this life, even to death."

But, how far should "believers" press this issue that "binds" one "to the flesh", thus "to the world?"

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

We had this issue in our church. A couple was living together and she got pregnant. Then some of the women in the church wanted to give her a baby shower. Our pastor said no. He went and talked to the couple and told them what they were doing was wrong. He told them they needed to get married. They were offended and left the church. The pastor got up the next Sunday and explained what he had told the couple and that they had chosen to leave. I know our pastor did it with a heart of love. They didn't want to hear the truth. Pity.

Yeah, he did the right thing. Maybe their pastor informed them they needed to get married, too. I hope so. I know that they were living together 4 months.