Mystery Babylon

[TooFastTurtle]

By the way, have you ever read "Roman Catholicism in the Last Days: The Woman Who Rides the Beast" by Dave Hunt. It goes into the history of Roman Catholicism, as those who initiated the inquisitions and the blood that the church and her popes shed, as well as her role with the coming beast.

I will look at it. I am familiar with Dave Hunt.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I will look at it. I am familiar with Dave Hunt.

It is a little thick, but very informative. The pope's controlled kingdoms and their armies out of fear of being excommunicated. And they still want that authority and control back, which the coming antichrist will provide. I truly believe that one of the future pope's will play the part of the false prophet.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

The woman of Revelation 12 = The nation Israel (Genesis 37:9-10)

There are two women in Revelation 12. The woman of Revelation 1-7 is about Joseph and his family, and how Satan attacked them but still God provided a way for them.
The woman of Revelation 12:13 on is about Jesus and his earthly family, and how Satan pursued them, but God protected them.

Here is a list of similarities between Joseph and Jesus

1. He is the object of his father’s special love.
2. He had promises of divine exaltation.
3. He was mocked by his family.
4. He was sold for pieces of silver.
5. He was stripped of his robe.
6. He was delivered up to the Gentiles.
7. He was falsely accused.
8. He was faithful amid temptation.
9. He was thrown into prison.
10. He stood before rulers.
11. His power was acknowledged by those in authority.
12. He saves his rebellious brothers from death when they realize who he is.
13. He is exalted after and through humiliation.
14. He embraces God’s purpose even though it brings him intense physical harm.
15. He is the instrument God uses at the hands of the Gentiles to bless his people.
16. He welcomes Gentiles to be part of his family.
17. He gives hungry people bread.
18. People must bow their knee before him.

Revelation 12 is another example of where similarities are drawn between joseph and Jesus.

Another important message in Rev 12 is that Satan will be even more dangerous after Jesus's time on earth than he was before Jesus's time on earth.

 

[Ahwatukee]

There are two women in Revelation 12. The woman of Revelation 1-7 is about Joseph and his family, and how Satan attacked them but still God provided a way for them.

Good day Nebuchadnezzer!

I'm guessing that you made a typo above, for there is no woman mentioned in Revelation 1:7. That verse is "Look, He is coming with the clouds and every eye shall see Him, even those who pierced Him. And all peoples of the earth will mourn because of Him."

Where are you getting the idea that there are two women in Revelation 12, when there is only one mentioned as being clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars. This woman is identified in Genesis 37:9-10 as being the nation Israel and that because the same symbols of the sun, moon and stars were used from Joseph's dream. After Joseph tells Jacob his dream, he then identifies the sun as himself, the moon as his wife and the eleven stars representing eleven of sons, with Joseph being the twelfth star. Therefore, the woman of Revelation 12 represents the nation Israel. There is no other woman mentioned in that chapter.

The woman of Revelation 12:13 on is about Jesus and his earthly family, and how Satan pursued them, but God protected them.

The "Male Child" is not symbolically representing for Jesus. This is the common knee-jerk reaction from those who don't look any deeper into the scripture and are just repeating the mainstream teaching.

The male child is caught up to God and His throne before the dragon/Satan can devour/kill it. That is not what happened to Jesus. For He was crucified, resurrected and later ascended to the right hand of God. In opposition, the male child is caught up to God before Satan can kill him. The same word describing the church being caught up is the word "harpazo" which means to be snatched up, force suddenly exercised, a snatching away. This did not happen to Jesus. However, the male child/144,000 will be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven year period.

The correct answer to this is that the male child is a collective name representing the 144,000 who were sealed in chapter 7. In support of this, in Rev.14, of the 144,000 it is said, "These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they are virgins." This would infer that these 144,000 are all males, ergo, male child. The meaning to this is that, out of the unbelieving nation of Israel will come 144,000 (gives birth to), 12,000 from each tribe, who will recognize Jesus is their Messiah.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Good day Nebuchadnezzer!

The "Male Child" is not symbolically representing for Jesus. This is the common knee-jerk reaction from those who don't look any deeper into the scripture and are just repeating the mainstream teaching.

I agree, the [1st] woman in Revelation 12:1-7 is Israel, which is the new name for Jacob, and I see these verses being about Jacob and his family, with emphasis on Joesph.
For example the 10 horns represents the 10 brothers who sold Joseph into slavery. I believe that Benjamin was either too young or was not even born yet to take part in the selling of his brother Joseph.

Where we differ is on the [2nd] woman in Revelation 12:13-17 (2nd woman). Here I see her as representing Mary and her family with emphasis on Jesus.

I see Revelation 12 as containing a comparison of Joseph to Jesus. There is more in Rev 12 than just this, but this is a big part of it.

The correct answer to this is that the male child is a collective name representing the 144,000 who were sealed in chapter 7. In support of this, in Rev.14, of the 144,000 it is said, "These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they are virgins." This would infer that these 144,000 are all males, ergo, male child.

This to me does not align. The woman in Rev 12 is good. These women in Rev 14 are wicked.

The meaning to this is that, out of the unbelieving nation of Israel will come 144,000 (gives birth to), 12,000 from each tribe, who will recognize Jesus is their Messiah.

This I don't disagree with.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I agree, the [1st] woman in Revelation 12:1-7 is Israel, which is the new name for Jacob, and I see these verses being about Jacob and his family, with emphasis on Joseph.
For example the 10 horns represents the 10 brothers who sold Joseph into slavery. I believe that Benjamin was either too young or was not even born yet to take part in the selling of his brother Joseph.

Where we differ is on the [2nd] woman in Revelation 12:13-17 (2nd woman). Here I see her as representing Mary and her family with emphasis on Jesus.

Revelation 12 verses 1 thru 6 is a summary. Where Verses 7 thru 17 is a detailed account of the same woman and same dragon.

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"A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth." - Rev.12:1

"She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." - Rev.12:6

"The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days."

"When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach." - Rev.12:13-14

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The above verses are speaking about the same woman. To be clear, the woman mentioned in verse 1 who is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars, is the same woman mentioned in verse 13-14.

In verse 6 the woman flees out into the desert where she is cared for 1260 days, which in 30 day increments comes to 3 1/2 years. Then the same thing is repeated in verse 14 where she is given two wings of a great eagle where she will be taken care of for a time, times and a half a time (time=1 year, times=2 years, half a time=half a year). 1260 and a time, times and half a time is just referring to the same amount of time that the woman will be cared for out in the wilderness.

There is only one woman mentioned in Revelation 12, not two! Why do you create another woman? The dragon is going to pursue the same woman that gave birth to the male child, not a different woman!

For example the 10 horns represents the 10 brothers who sold Joseph into slavery.

The ten horns are not 10 of Jacob's son's, as those ten kings have nothing to do with Israel! They are ten individuals who, in the future, will be appointed as kings in a short period of time and who will give their power and authority to the beast. As I told you before, these are future events and future kings. So, it has nothing to do with Jacob's son's.

I see Revelation 12 as containing a comparison of Joseph to Jesus. There is more in Rev 12 than just this, but this is a big part of it.

The woman = the nation Israel

The male child = a collective name representing the 144,000 who come out of Israel (gives birth to)

The dragon = Satan

A third of the stars = Satan's angels

1260 days/a time, times and half a time = the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period

This to me does not align. The woman in Rev 12 is good. These women in Rev 14 are wicked.

There is no mentioned woman in Revelation 14.

The woman in Revelation 12 is different from the woman in chapter 17.

The woman in Rev.12 = the nation Israel

The woman who rides the beast in Rev.17 = Rome/Vatican

The ten horns have to do with the beast whom the woman rides of chapter 17, not the woman in chapter 12


I think that you are very confused in your eschatology my friend.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Revelation 12 verses 1 thru 6 is a summary. Where Verses 7 thru 17 is a detailed account of the same woman and same dragon.

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"A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth." - Rev.12:1

"She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." - Rev.12:6

"The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days."

"When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach." - Rev.12:13-14

=================================================================================

The above verses are speaking about the same woman. To be clear, the woman mentioned in verse 1 who is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars, is the same woman mentioned in verse 13-14.

In verse 6 the woman flees out into the desert where she is cared for 1260 days, which in 30 day increments comes to 3 1/2 years. Then the same thing is repeated in verse 14 where she is given two wings of a great eagle where she will be taken care of for a time, times and a half a time (time=1 year, times=2 years, half a time=half a year). 1260 and a time, times and half a time is just referring to the same amount of time that the woman will be cared for out in the wilderness.

There is only one woman mentioned in Revelation 12, not two! Why do you create another woman? The dragon is going to pursue the same woman that gave birth to the male child, not a different woman!



The ten horns are not 10 of Jacob's son's, as those ten kings have nothing to do with Israel! They are ten individuals who, in the future, will be appointed as kings in a short period of time and who will give their power and authority to the beast. As I told you before, these are future events and future kings. So, it has nothing to do with Jacob's son's.



The woman = the nation Israel

The male child = a collective name representing the 144,000 who come out of Israel (gives birth to)

The dragon = Satan

A third of the stars = Satan's angels

1260 days/a time, times and half a time = the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period



There is no mentioned woman in Revelation 14.

The woman in Revelation 12 is different from the woman in chapter 17.

The woman in Rev.12 = the nation Israel

The woman who rides the beast in Rev.17 = Rome/Vatican

The ten horns have to do with the beast whom the woman rides of chapter 17, not the woman in chapter 12


I think that you are very confused in your eschatology my friend.

seven diadems (crowns) are mentioned in Rev 12, but these seven diadems (crowns) are not mentioned in Rev 17.
So the 7 heads with seven crowns in Rev 12 are not the same as the 7 heads that are in Rev 17.
Therefore, the 10 horns in Rev 12 may also not be the same 10 horns in Rev 17. Yes/No????

If the seven heads in Rev 17 are seven hills, Then the seven heads with seven diadems in Rev 12 could be the seven years of plenty followed by the seven years of famine (Joseph in Egypt).

 

[Ahwatukee]

seven diadems (crowns) are mentioned in Rev 12, but these seven diadems (crowns) are not mentioned in Rev 17.

Oh, but the seven crowns are mentioned in Rev.17:10

"The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

As I said in a previous post, the seven kings are a succession of kings. At the time John was receiving this information five of those seven kings had come and gone. Then he says regarding king six "one is" meaning that king number six was ruling at that time. King number seven had not yet come and so he was future to John, but in the past to us.

The ten horns are ten individuals who are not kings, but will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

That said, why would you say that the seven diadems/crowns which represent kings are not found in Rev.17?

Therefore, the 10 horns in Rev 12 may also not be the same 10 horns in Rev 17. Yes/No????

The ten horns and seven heads of Rev.12 are the same mentioned in Rev.17. Why would you assign them as being different. You did the same thing with the woman of Rev.12 creating two woman, when the same woman is being spoken of throughout chapter 12. That would be like believing that there are two groups of 144,000 because they are mentioned in Revelation 7 and then again in Revelation 14. Yet, they are the same group.

If the seven heads in Rev 17 are seven hills, Then the seven heads with seven diadems in Rev 12 could be the seven years of plenty followed by the seven years of famine (Joseph in Egypt).

Revelation 17 gives us the answer to the meaning of the dragons seven heads as representing seven hills and seven kings, as well as the ten horns which will rule concurrently with the beast and which are also mentioned in Revelation 12 and 13. They're the same seven heads and same seven crowns and same ten horns, just mentioned differently in each chapter.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Revelation 17 gives us the answer to the meaning of the dragons seven heads as representing seven hills and seven kings, as well as the ten horns which will rule concurrently with the beast and which are also mentioned in Revelation 12 and 13. They're the same seven heads and same seven crowns and same ten horns, just mentioned differently in each chapter.

Rev 12: 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
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The descriptions of the red dragon, the beast of the sea, and the scarlet coloured beast with a prostitute riding on it are clearly all different. Besides, what about the ten crowns on the ten horns in rev 13.

Here is a different example: Jacob (Israel) had 12 sons (Tribes) , and Jesus had 12 apostles. The number 12 repeats, but they represent different things.

Similarly, the 10 horns and 7 heads repeats, but that doesn't mean they keep representing the same things.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Rev 12: 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
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The descriptions of the red dragon, the beast of the sea, and the scarlet coloured beast are all different.

Here is an example: Jacob (Israel) had 12 sons (Tribes) , and Jesus had 12 apostles. The number 12 repeats but they represent different things.

Similarly, the 10 horns and 7 heads repeat, but that doesn't mean they keep representing the same things.

The seven headed dragon in chapters 12, 13 and 17 are the same dragon, mentioned different ways. This is confirmed by the angel that had been showing John all of these things, when he finally reveals the meaning of the seven heads and the ten horns in chapter 17.

"Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns."

That beast that woman rides is the same dragon with seven heads and ten horns that were seen in chapters 12 & 13. You don't see the angel giving a definition of the dragon in chapter 12 and then another description in chapter 13 do you? No! And that because they are the same dragon/beast, with Satan representing the dragon as a whole, the one orchestrating everything.

I wish that you people who have no understanding of end-time events would stop teaching these false teachings that you have adopted.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

There is no mentioned woman in Revelation 14.

You mentioned 'women' in Rev 14 as an attempt to connect 144,000 to the woman in Rev 12, I did not.

The woman in Revelation 12 is different from the woman in chapter 17.

I agree.

The woman in Rev.12 = the nation Israel

I agree, the woman who gave birth to "a male child" is Israel
But there is a distinction drawn with the woman who gives birth to "the male child". This is a different woman.
Another way we can look at this is that "a male child" represents the Nation of Israel who carried the bones of Joseph out of Egypt, and "the male child" who is the Church, that has life through the bones of Jesus being resurrected from the dead.

So in a way they are all God's people and one Woman, but they can also be looked at as two different women: Nation of Israel and the Church.

The woman who rides the beast in Rev.17 = Rome/Vatican

I agree, but I also think she includes other christian denominations that are trending back toward communion with Rome.

The ten horns have to do with the beast whom the woman rides of chapter 17, not the woman in chapter 12

Yeah, but if this is the case, then why are the ten horns even mentioned in chapter 12?

Rev 12 describes imagery of Satan attacking the Nation of Israel, the ten horns signifies one of the ways Satan (the dragon) attacked the Nation of Israel.
Satan also controls the scarlet beast, but the scarlet beast is a different tactic employed by Satan, at a different time. the ten horns here represents something different. The clues that surround this beast are there to help believers to identify the scarlet beast.
Neither of us completely understand the prophesy in Rev 17. But we understand enough to identify that Rome / Vatican has something to do with this beast.

I think that you are very confused in your eschatology my friend.

And who isn't?

 

[Ahwatukee]

You mentioned 'women' in Rev 14 as an attempt to connect 144,000 to the woman in Rev 12, I did not.

But there is a distinction drawn with the woman who gives birth to "the male child". This is a different woman.

It is this type of reason as to why we have false teachings in the world.

First of all and as I pointed out in my last post, there is no woman mentioned in Rev.14, which tells me that you don't know what the heck you are talking about. Chapter 14 has information regarding the Lamb and the 144,000, the three angels each with a differenet message and the two harvests. There is no woman mentioned in that chapter.

Why would cite another woman, when the same woman is being referred to throughout chapter 12. No where in chapter 12 is another woman introduced.

* A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

* The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.

* She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” a And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

* The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

* When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

* The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

* Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

* hen the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

As you can see, the woman mentioned as being clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars and who is gives birth to the male child and who flees out into the wilderness and is cared for during that 1260 and time, times and half a time, is referring to the same woman.

No other woman is ever introduced!

Another way we can look at this is that "a male child" represents the Nation of Israel who carried the bones of Joseph out of Egypt, and "the male child" who is the Church, that has life through the bones of Jesus being resurrected from the dead.

There is no other way to look at this! The male child is a collective name for the 144,000 Israelites, 12,000 from each tribe, who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah and will come out of Israel, which is figuratively what the phrase "gives birth to" is referring to. Unbelieving Israel is giving birth 144,000 Christ believing Israelites. Get it?!

The 144,000 will be sealed during the first 3 1/2 years of the seven year period and the church will have already have been gathered prior to that. The church will no longer be on the earth when the woman gives birth to the male child. The church is in heaven at that point.

Yeah, but if this is the case, then why are the ten horns even mentioned in chapter 12?

The ten horns of the dragon are mentioned in chapters 12, 13 and 17 and that because they are apart of the details that make up the dragon

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* Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. (Rev.12:3

* And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. (Rev.13:1)

* Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.
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Same dragon/beast, same seven heads, same ten horns.

[quoteRev 12 describes imagery of Satan attacking the Nation of Israel, the ten horns signifies one of the ways Satan (the dragon) attacked the Nation of Israel.

After Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth, which will take place in the middle of the seven years, the woman/Israel will flee out into the wilderness to that place that God will have prepared for her where she will be cared for during that last 3 1/2 years. As the woman is fleeing, the dragon/Satan spews water out of his mouth like a river to overtake the woman, which is figurative of Satan sending an army after Israel. Many times throughout scripture a river, torrent of flood is used symbolically to represent an army. This is a future event which will take place in the middle of that last seven years, which is supported by the reference to 1260 days, 42 months and a time, times and half a time, all referring to 3 1/2 years.

Neither of us completely understand the prophesy in Rev 17. But we understand enough to identify that Rome / Vatican has something to do with this beast.

I understand the prophecy as I have been studying end-time events for 45 years, which is what I have bee sharing with you. Scripture is very clear as to who that city is that ruled over the kings of the earth and who sits on seven hills and is dressed in purple and scarlet, of that there is not doubt that it is the headquarters of Vatican of Rome, that Babylonian based, counterfeit church.

 

[Lanolin]

Wasnt satans seat in pergamon. Sorry I still dont get the connection to Rome. There was an entire book of Romans, but I dont think it ever mentioned that Rome was the same as Babylon, or that it was apsotate, because it was gentiles, apostacy could only happen in context of Israel.

Gentiles, by defintition, couldnt be apostates as they werent the chosen ones in the first place.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

As you can see, the woman mentioned as being clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars and who is gives birth to the male child and who flees out into the wilderness and is cared for during that 1260 and time, times and half a time, is referring to the same woman.

No other woman is ever introduced!

Yes there is because the Woman in Rev12:1-7 and the Woman in Rev 12: 13-17 are separated by Rev 12:10-12
You purposefully left out Rev 12:10-12 it seems. Perhaps you are the one pushing falsehood, hmmm.

What happens in Rev 12:10-12 ?
10- And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11- And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12- Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Satan is defeated here on earth in verses 10 to 12.

The First Woman (Rev 12:1-7) is who existed on earth before Jesus Christ came to this world to defeat Satan.
The Second Woman (12: 13-17) is who existed during and exists after Jesus Christ who came into this world and defeated Stan.

A very important part of the message in Rev 12 is that it is informing us that Satan will be even more deceptive and dangerous and full of rage post Jesus Christ, because he is now defeated and his time is short.

The schemes of the Devil will be even worse post Jesus Resurrection, and that is what The Book of Revelation reveals to us. But many deny this.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Wasnt satans seat in pergamon. Sorry I still dont get the connection to Rome. There was an entire book of Romans, but I dont think it ever mentioned that Rome was the same as Babylon, or that it was apsotate, because it was gentiles, apostacy could only happen in context of Israel.

Gentiles, by defintition, couldnt be apostates as they werent the chosen ones in the first place.

Good day Lanolin,

The clues that identify the woman as being Rome, can be found in Revelation 17.

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"The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

"The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits."

"The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls."
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At the time that John was receiving this information from the angel, Rome was that great city that ruled over the kings of the earth.

The angel also tells John that the seven heads of the beast symbolically represent seven hills upon which the woman sits. Rome was literally built on and is famous for her seven hills.

Another clue is that the woman is said to be dressed in purple and scarlet. These are the exact colors worn by the cardinals and bishops of Roman Catholicism




Within Roman Catholicism can be found many of the practices and beliefs that stemmed from the pagan religions of Babylon, which is why she is called "Mystery, Babylon the great."

In regards to her pagan practices, we could start with that 82 ft. obelisk that was brought over from Hierapolis Egypt which stands in St. Peter's square. People think of it as just a novel piece of history. But the fact is that there is a pagan obelisk sitting on the door steps of the what people believe to be the church of Christ. One only has to do by a cursory look at RC to see that she is not the true church, but Satan's counterfeit. She is that woman, whose headquarters is the Vatican of Rome, that city that sits on seven hills who will be in league with the beast.

"With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries."

The adulteries spoken of above is obviously not referring to literal physical adultery, but spiritual adultery, the figurative meaning of which is, "to be unfaithful to Christ, while posing as His true follower," and this is exactly what the RC is doing. As other proofs of this I could go into her teachings of the worship of Mary, Purgatory, transubstantiation which is the belief that the priest calls Christ down from heaven and enters the Eucharist so that people are eating the literal flesh and blood of Christ. I could go on an on with her pagan practices, but I think you get the point, which is that she is not the church.

That the kings of the earth and the inhabitants are intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries, means that they do and will engage in her adulterous practices and beliefs.

The dogma of Roman Catholicism is that all people must come under the authority of the pope and belong to the church. During the time when RC was in power, her authority was physically enforced. The RC was responsible for the inquisitions, where if someone was found to be in rejection of the Pope's authority and the authority of his church, they were imprisoned, their property confiscated, tortured and many burned. Prior to the 18th century, the pope's of yore controlled kings and their armies via threat of excommunication. This is in fact Roman Catholicism's stand today. They believe that they are the mother church and every other sect has strayed. However, they do not have the power to enforce that authority. When that beast comes, he will he will put pagan religion of Rome and her pope back into power. I truly believe that one of the future pope's will play the part of the false prophet.

All this said, I don't see how you or anyone else cannot make the connection of Rome and her Vatican as being Babylon the great, that city that sits on seven hills.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Yes there is because the Woman in Rev12:1-7 and the Woman in Rev 12: 13-17 are separated by Rev 12:10-12
You purposefully left out Rev 12:10-12 it seems. Perhaps you are the one pushing falsehood, hmmm.

What happens in Rev 12:10-12 ?
10- And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11- And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12- Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Satan is defeated here on earth in verses 10 to 12.

The First Woman (Rev 12:1-7) is who existed on earth before Jesus Christ came to this world to defeat Satan.
The Second Woman (12: 13-17) is who existed during and exists after Jesus Christ who came into this world and defeated Stan.

A very important part of the message in Rev 12 is that it is informing us that Satan will be even more deceptive and dangerous and full of rage post Jesus Christ, because he is now defeated and his time is short.

The schemes of the Devil will be even worse post Jesus Resurrection, and that is what The Book of Revelation reveals to us. But many deny this.

I am not familiar with you as a poster so could you fill me in on where you stand on the amillennial, premillennial, post-trib, pre-trib spectrum of things?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yes there is because the Woman in Rev12:1-7 and the Woman in Rev 12: 13-17 are separated by Rev 12:10-12

You must have a lot of problems reading books then. In Revelation 12, there is never another woman introduced. So the on-going reference to "the woman" is referring to the same woman that was introduced in the very first verse. According to you, another woman has snuck into the context, yet there is no other woman.

[quoted]You purposefully left out Rev 12:10-12 it seems. Perhaps you are the one pushing falsehood, hmmm.

What happens in Rev 12:10-12 ?
10- And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11- And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12- Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time.

Satan is defeated here on earth in verses 10 to 12.[/quote]

You seriously should not be teaching any end-time event information, because you neither understand it and don't know what you are talking about.

Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth is the result of the seventh trumpet and which is also the third woe, which takes place in the middle of the seven years.

The fact that the scripture says "woe to those who inhabit the earth and the sea" tells you that Satan is not defeated. He has indeed ultimately been defeated by Christ, but after he is cast to the earth is when he will be given power to make war against the saints and will have authority over all people of the earth through the beast, which he gives his power and authority to. (Rev.13:5-7)

The First Woman (Rev 12:1-7) is who existed on earth before Jesus Christ came to this world to defeat Satan.
The Second Woman (12: 13-17) is who existed during and exists after Jesus Christ who came into this world and defeated Stan.

Once again, the woman and her giving birth is a future event, not a past event. Remember, these are the events that Jesus told John "must take place later." Therefore, they are not referring back to any other event of the past, but what is yet to come.

A very important part of the message in Rev 12 is that it is informing us that Satan will be even more deceptive and dangerous and full of rage post Jesus Christ, because he is now defeated and his time is short.

The reference to Satan knowing that his time is short, is because when he is cast out he will know that he only has 3 1/2 years where at which time he will be thrown into the Abyss. That is the meaning of him knowing that his time is short.

There is only one woman mentioned in Revelation 12. No other woman is introduced, that is of course unless you just make them up. Then you can create as many woman in that chapter as you want. In fact, every time that the word "woman" is used, you could assign it to being another woman. Let's just throw grammar and sentence structure right out the window here! Because this is exactly what you are doing!

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

I am not familiar with you as a poster so could you fill me in on where you stand on the amillennial, premillennial, post-trib, pre-trib spectrum of things?

These are man-made terms that you have provided. I do not identify with any of them.
Is the 1000 year reign of Christ, which is to come, literal or not? I am not sure.
Do I believe in the rapture? I am not sold on the rapture.

If you want to categorize me then you can label me a historicist.
But my views are unorthodox within the historicist camp and are not based on what other historicists claim. Some of the historicist views are greatly flawed.

I believe Rev 12 is a pivotal chapter in Revelation. I believe it is not a continuation or progression from the previous chapters. I believe Rev 12 gives information about when Satan and his angels were evicted from heaven, but mainly covers the time from Jacob to 1st century AD, and sets the stage for the tribulation which is described in Rev 13 through Rev 19.
I believe the tribulation begins in the 1st century A.D. and occurs the entire time until Christ's return.
I believe Re 12 is warning us that Satan's tactics will be worse going forward from 1st century AD.

To be clear, I believe that Rev 12 through Rev 19 walk us through this timeline for the tribulation:
1st century AD ----> to present day 2019 ----> future time when Christ Returns.

Is Rev 12 through Rev 19 all in chronological order? No!
However, I believe there is an overall forward progression from Rev 12 through Rev 19, but by no means is it all in chronological order.

For example, I believe the bowls of wrath are not in chronological order.

I believe no one can understand Revelation without the guidance and teaching of the Holy Spirit.
Yes, I believe the Holy Spirit has opened my eyes and taught me certain things in Revelation, but by no means do I understand it all and have all the answers.

I would like to share what I see with other true believers who are open to discussing the historicist view.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

These are man-made terms that you have provided. I do not identify with any of them.
Is the 1000 year reign of Christ, which is to come, literal or not? I am not sure.
Do I believe in the rapture? I am not sold on the rapture.

If you want to categorize me then you can label me a historicist.
But my views are unorthodox within the historicist camp and are not based on what other historicists claim. Some of the historicist views are greatly flawed.

I believe Rev 12 is a pivotal chapter in Revelation. I believe it is not a continuation or progression from the previous chapters. I believe Rev 12 covers the time from Jacob to 1st century AD, and sets the stage for the tribulation which is described in Rev 13 through Rev 19.
I believe the tribulation begins in the 1st century A.D. and occurs the entire time until Christ's return.

To be clear, I believe that Rev 12 through Rev 19 walk us through this timeline for the tribulation:
1st century AD ----> to present day 2019 ----> future time when Christ Returns.

Is Rev 12 through Rev 19 all in chronological order? No!
However, I believe there is an overall forward progression from Rev 12 through Rev 19, but by no means is it all in chronological order.

For example, I believe the bowls of wrath are not in chronological order.

I believe no one can understand Revelation without the guidance and teaching of the Holy Spirit.
Yes, I believe the Holy Spirit has opened my eyes and taught me certain things in Revelation, but by no means do I understand it all and have all the answers.

I would like to share what I see with other true believers who are open to discussing the historicist view.

Thanks for clarifying. I disagree with the historicist view it falls flat by claiming the great tribulation started in 1st century AD.

Jesus said this will be the worst time ever, and we can conclude its the last week of Daniel, and to those who do not believe in that, it would still be atleast 42 months as is clearly laid out in the book of Revelation.

How can you make 42 months into 2000+ years?

My view: The Rapture is pre-trib closing this grace period we are in now, many Jews will be saved during the tribulation and they will along with the saved gentiles populate the millennium, Israel will get their kingdom.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Here is the way I see it: (Chart not mine, found on google, all credit to them):

Not to nitpick the chart, but I will a bit: In my opinion the great tribulation is only the last 42 months, after the abomination of desolation has taken place. But that is neither here nor there, the basic idea of the chart is solid in my opinion.