WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

DeighAnn · Nov 26, 2019

I am not saying anything.

Gods Word says it. It is for everyone, for the purposes of God. God is Just. God wishes all to come to repentance. God does not want to lose anyone.

God can not change. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

At the most basic level.

Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. (GOOD AND EVIL)

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (NOT JUST SOME)

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (AND WHAT LIES IS GOD REALLY CONCERNED WITH? HIS WORD. AND HOW CAN WE BE SURE?)

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: (HERE IS PROOF)

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (AND OUR SECOND WITNESS)

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Revelation 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

DeighAnn · Nov 26, 2019

John146 said:

I was asking a question.

Nehemiah6 · Nov 26, 2019

DeighAnn said:

Bible truth is NOT according to opinion. So COMPLETELY FALSE according to Divine Revelation and sound biblical interpretation and exegesis.

And the truth has been presented a hundred times in dozens of threads.

TooFastTurtle · Nov 26, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

Which truth is in question? I am always interested in truth

Nehemiah6 · Nov 26, 2019

TooFastTurtle said:

We are discussing the truth of the Rapture. It was opposed by DA in post #588.

TooFastTurtle · Nov 26, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

Oh yes. I believe the rapture is pre-trib.

DeighAnn · Nov 26, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

Truth? THAT THEORY YOU expound, has to be "explained" because the TIMING was garnered from the words "kept, keep you from, and not appointed" with the ASSUMPTION BY MAN THAT that means " to leave the earth" BECAUSE APPARENTLY, there is no faith that God can keep you any other way, and to go get married between Satan getting kicked out of Heaven and the SILENCE happening there FOR A HALF HOUR (how does that work??), then extrapolate that "truth" because the church can't be found by you past Rev 3 till the end or whatever that is, and the churches being gathered " meaning" of the trump of God must be changed, not to MENTION THE 2ND LETTER that states 3 times "not until Satan is revealed standing in the holy place proclaiming to be God" that is NEVER EXPLAINED, though a blind man can see it is directly written BECAUSE of the verse USED FOR THE GATHERING OF THE CHURCH.
and I am the one peddling something COMPLETELY FALSE?

I can show that every time the "coming of the Lord" or "the return of the Lord" or "the Lords Day" is SINGULAR.
Can you give me one verse where it is plural?

I can give a verse that says he will return a 2nd time.
Can you give one that says a 3rd?

I can you a verse where He comes to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, followed IMMEDIATELY by the day of vengeance.
Can you give me one verse that proclaims the acceptable year, the "rapsure", and then the day of vengeance?

I can give you a verse that says He will descend in like manner that He ascended.
Can you give me a verse that says He will descend, ascend, and then descend again?

I can give you a verse that says "saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly,
Can you give me a false doctrine that "isn't rapsure" that is about making souls fly?

I can give you a verse that says to stand.
Can you give me a verse that says you will be fleeing?

I can you you a verse that says to overcome.
Can you give me a verse that says you will not need to?

I can give you a verse that says "endure to the end"
Can you give me a verse that says you don't need to do that either?

I can give you a verse that says "Do not be deceived"
Can you give me a verse that says you wont be around to be deceived?

And it all pretty much follows "many are called..." doesn't it? Famine in the end time is for the Word of God, not words from the word of God.

And can't be sure, but doesn't sound like any of these "rap" people know the difference between House of Jacob, House of Israel and House of Judah, because if they did they would know "Jacobs Trouble" is "Christians Trouble" because Jacob-Israel are Gods People through the Abrahamic Covenant which is everlasting, so no matter where they came from, be that Jew, Greek Gentile, Heathen, WHOMSOEVER, they make up Gods People and to "separate them or cause divisions between them goes directly AGAINST what Jesus said He did.

But hey, lets go again. I absolutely love putting away false theories and replacing them with GODS WORD. And I must admit I am starting to feel a tiny bit of righteous indignation.

DeighAnn · Nov 26, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

I OPPOSE any gathering of anyone at anytime before the 2nd Advent of Christ. I oppose the word rapsure because it is not in the bible, and promotes a "theory".

Ahwatukee · Nov 26, 2019

DeighAnn said:

First of all, it is not a theory, as you continue to call it. And what it means DeighAnn, is that because you believe that the church is going to go through the time of God's wrath, that you don't really believe that Jesus took upon himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Since it has already been satisfied, the wrath of God no longer rests upon believers.

Your other error is not recognizing the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, confusing it with some time period of Satan's wrath, of which there is none. Oh for he gets angry after he is cast down to the earth, but his anger takes place during the time of God's wrath, not his. The entire period is God's time of wrath, the day of the Lord.

The other thing that you err in, is that you don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. For if you did understand them, you would not be claiming that the Lord is going to put His church through His wrath first and then gather whoever is left afterwards.

God's coming wrath is not the same as the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have, which is another error on your part, not recognizing the difference between the two. Since God's wrath is going to come upon the whole inhabited world, unlike Noah and Lot, there would be no boat to escape on and no town to flee to. Therefore believers must be and will be, removed.

In I Thess.4:18, after Paul gave a detailed account of the catching up of the church to meet the Lord in the air, he finished with "therefore, comfort one another with these words." If the church were to first go through God's wrath, there would be no reason to comfort one another, because you would have believers suffering God's wrath right along side the wicked.

The word used is "ek" which is literally "keep out," as in "I will keep you out of the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole inhabited world." It is not keep you through, or keep you during, but keep you out of that hour of trial. This is Jesus promise to those overcomers who endure patiently. And the only way to keep them out of that hour of trial, which is God's time of wrath, is to take believers off the earth.

You have a lot to learn and you should not be teaching about these things.

Likewise, Paul called the appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, the blessed hope. However, it would be no blessed hope if believers were to first go through God's wrath and be gathered afterwards, as you claim.

y,

Ahwatukee · Nov 26, 2019

DeighAnn said:

Your error is not recognizing that the Lord's appearing to gather the church as being a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

When the church is gathered, Jesus calls up both the dead and the living to meet Him in the air. He does not to return to the earth at that time. He then takes the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us.

As long as you continue to continue to make these two events as being the same, you will continue to err.

Everything prior to the Lord's mention of "the day vengeance" was fulfilled in the peoples hearing. For Jesus said, "today this has been fulfilled in your hearing. However, the "day of vengeance of our God" is still future, which is referring to that last seven years.

Don't worry! You're not putting away false theories, but are adding to them.

That righteous indignation that you mention, will be deflated when you find out that you have been teaching falsely.

RevelationMan · Nov 26, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

First of all, it is not a theory, as you continue to call it. And what it means DeighAnn, is that because you believe that the church is going to go through the time of God's wrath, that you don't really believe that Jesus took upon himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Since it has already been satisfied, the wrath of God no longer rests upon believers.

Your other error is not recognizing the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, confusing it with some time period of Satan's wrath, of which there is none. Oh for he gets angry after he is cast down to the earth, but his anger takes place during the time of God's wrath, not his. The entire period is God's time of wrath, the day of the Lord.

The other thing that you err in, is that you don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. For if you did understand them, you would not be claiming that the Lord is going to put His church through His wrath first and then gather whoever is left afterwards.

God's coming wrath is not the same as the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have, which is another error on your part, not recognizing the difference between the two. Since God's wrath is going to come upon the whole inhabited world, unlike Noah and Lot, there would be no boat to escape on and no town to flee to. Therefore believers must be and will be, removed.

In I Thess.4:18, after Paul gave a detailed account of the catching up of the church to meet the Lord in the air, he finished with "therefore, comfort one another with these words." If the church were to first go through God's wrath, there would be no reason to comfort one another, because you would have believers suffering God's wrath right along side the wicked.

The word used is "ek" which is literally "keep out," as in "I will keep you out of the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole inhabited world." It is not keep you through, or keep you during, but keep you out of that hour of trial. This is Jesus promise to those overcomers who endure patiently. And the only way to keep them out of that hour of trial, which is God's time of wrath, is to take believers off the earth.

You have a lot to learn and you should not be teaching about these things.

Likewise, Paul called the appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, the blessed hope. However, it would be no blessed hope if believers were to first go through God's wrath and be gathered afterwards, as you claim.

y,

Ahwatukee, don't you think that what we believe has something to do to what happens to us. That there will be a remnant of the Church who believes in a post-trib rapture and those who are not yet ready who will actually go through the tribulation but likely be protected from the major effects of God's wrath and survive the tribulation. The pre-trib saints will be caught up prior to the tribulation but there are spirit filled believers who will go through the tribulation but be spared. The two witnesses will lead the two churches that come from this remnant of believers.

Absolutely · Nov 26, 2019

DeighAnn said:

The 144k are gathered and in heaven in rev14
The ripe fruit also gathered by Jesus in rev 14
The two witnesses are also gathered during the trib period.

And lets not forgetJesus examples of lot and noah. BOTH OF WHICH. ARE GATHERED BEFORE JUDGEMENT.

The 5 wise are gathered in a peacetime setting w/o the slightest hint of your supposed thrashing of the bride with a bull whip.

1 THES 4 IS ANOTHER.... but i am sure you thumb your nose at that verse as well as Jesus words.

Absolutely · Nov 26, 2019

RevelationMan said:

Ahwatukee, don't you think that what we believe has something to do to what happens to us. That there will be a remnant of the Church who believes in a post-trib rapture and those who are not yet ready who will actually go through the tribulation but likely be protected from the major effects of God's wrath and survive the tribulation. The pre-trib saints will be caught up prior to the tribulation but there are spirit filled believers who will go through the tribulation but be spared. The two witnesses will lead the two churches that come from this remnant of believers.

The bible says EVERYONE ON THE PLANET worships the beast.
Those left behind are martyred.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 26, 2019

RevelationMan said:

Here's how I understand that (regardless of what they "understand" or "do not understand" with regard to eschatology).

If a person is saved, they will indeed go in the Rapture.

[however, I've noticed that sometimes those who have an incorrect grasp of "eschatology," also (sometimes some) have an incorrect view of "salvation truths"... THIS is what would be the problem!]

So with regard to "what [a genuinely "saved" person] grasps about 'eschatology'" and whether that makes a difference as to whether they "go in the rapture," or not, I would say (quoting an old post of mine):

[quoting that post]

Here is the problem with using a "tribulation period [CONTEXT]" verse ^ [not shown here] and [incorrectly] applying it in a direct sense to "the Church which is His body"...

Take note of this SAME GREEK WORD [not shown in this post, a verse from the gospels] used in a passage that IS addressed specifically to [to/for/about] the Church which is His body (unlike the above-mentioned/quoted verse and passage/context):

https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/5-10.htm

"the One having died for us, so that [/in order that] whether we might watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] or we might sleep [G2518 (a completely different word from the one used in chpt 4!!)] [ same two Grk words as in verse 6!! see that verse!], we should live together with [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION' with] Him." - 1 Thessalonians 5:10.

[note: not the "G3326 - meta - accompanying / 'with'" word, used of others elsewhere, like the "10 Virgins" parable, Matt25:10 (re: the "marriage FEAST/SUPPER" [i.e. the earthly MK] but which is NOT re: the "MARRIAGE" itself!)]

The problem is, at least with some (not saying YOU), is that they do not believe that Paul's epistles are the word of the Lord/the word of God. [see John 16:12-15 (Jesus said) "I have YET MANY THINGS TO SAY unto you, BUT..."] ; and "the word of the Lord" in 1Th4:15(1:8); 2Th3:1; 1Pet1:25 [see also *1Tim1:4, below]; and "the word of God" in 1Cor14:36[-38]; 2Cor2:17; 4:2; 6:17; Eph6:17; Col1:25 ['to complete the word of God']; 1Th2:13[2x]; 2Tim2:9; Heb4:12; 6:5; 13:7; 1Pet1:23; 2Pet3:5; 1Jn2:14 [to the 'young men']; Rev1:2,9; 6:9; 19:13; 20:4b]

[...<snip>...]

[see any distinction between THIS ^ passage (1Th5:9-10,6) and the ones from the Olivet Discourse??]

[end quoting that post]

Absolutely · Nov 26, 2019

DeighAnn said:

Truth? THAT THEORY YOU expound, has to be "explained" because the TIMING was garnered from the words "kept, keep you from, and not appointed" with the ASSUMPTION BY MAN THAT that means " to leave the earth" BECAUSE APPARENTLY, there is no faith that God can keep you any other way, and to go get married between Satan getting kicked out of Heaven and the SILENCE happening there FOR A HALF HOUR (how does that work??), then extrapolate that "truth" because the church can't be found by you past Rev 3 till the end or whatever that is, and the churches being gathered " meaning" of the trump of God must be changed, not to MENTION THE 2ND LETTER that states 3 times "not until Satan is revealed standing in the holy place proclaiming to be God" that is NEVER EXPLAINED, though a blind man can see it is directly written BECAUSE of the verse USED FOR THE GATHERING OF THE CHURCH.
and I am the one peddling something COMPLETELY FALSE?

I can show that every time the "coming of the Lord" or "the return of the Lord" or "the Lords Day" is SINGULAR.
Can you give me one verse where it is plural?

I can give a verse that says he will return a 2nd time.
Can you give one that says a 3rd?

I can you a verse where He comes to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, followed IMMEDIATELY by the day of vengeance.
Can you give me one verse that proclaims the acceptable year, the "rapsure", and then the day of vengeance?

I can give you a verse that says He will descend in like manner that He ascended.
Can you give me a verse that says He will descend, ascend, and then descend again?

I can give you a verse that says "saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly,
Can you give me a false doctrine that "isn't rapsure" that is about making souls fly?

I can give you a verse that says to stand.
Can you give me a verse that says you will be fleeing?

I can you you a verse that says to overcome.
Can you give me a verse that says you will not need to?

I can give you a verse that says "endure to the end"
Can you give me a verse that says you don't need to do that either?

I can give you a verse that says "Do not be deceived"
Can you give me a verse that says you wont be around to be deceived?

And it all pretty much follows "many are called..." doesn't it? Famine in the end time is for the Word of God, not words from the word of God.

And can't be sure, but doesn't sound like any of these "rap" people know the difference between House of Jacob, House of Israel and House of Judah, because if they did they would know "Jacobs Trouble" is "Christians Trouble" because Jacob-Israel are Gods People through the Abrahamic Covenant which is everlasting, so no matter where they came from, be that Jew, Greek Gentile, Heathen, WHOMSOEVER, they make up Gods People and to "separate them or cause divisions between them goes directly AGAINST what Jesus said He did.

But hey, lets go again. I absolutely love putting away false theories and replacing them with GODS WORD. And I must admit I am starting to feel a tiny bit of righteous indignation.

You did it again.
I called you on it last time,and showed you your bogus misapplication.

You denied it,and backpeddled.

Here you are doing it again.

Endure to the end is what the martyrs and NON MARTYRS did that died and went to heaven.

Overcomers overcome sin and the world and temptation.
You dont have to go through one minute of the gt to be an overcomer.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 26, 2019

^ EDIT: meant to insert THIS phrase into my SECOND line, but inserted it into my FIRST line INSTEAD (LOL) -

"If a person is saved, they will indeed go in the Rapture (regardless of what they "understand" or "do not understand" with regard to eschatology)."

...ran outta time to CORRECT that.

RevelationMan · Nov 26, 2019

Absolutely said:

The two witnesses come before the beast appears so this would not be a problem. They are the last the remnant of the Church and get caught up in the clouds where all the rest of us are waiting.

Nehemiah6 · Nov 26, 2019

DeighAnn said:

Which means that you are not even clear about the Second Coming of Christ. The Bible (both Testaments) make it crystal clear that Christ will come WITH HIS SAINTS AND ANGELS FROM HEAVEN at His Second Coming.

Now simple logic should dictate that if Christ comes from Heaven with His saints, then they must have been gathered to Heaven BEFORE His Coming. Which means that He had come FOR His saints earlier. And that is precisely what the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is all about.

That is TOTALLY ILLOGICAL. Just because a word which represents an event (or anything) is not found in English bibles does not make that event a "theory". So all you have to do is replace "Rapture" with "saints caught up together" (four words instead of one) and you have eliminated "theory" and replaced it with Bible doctrine. Most Christians are willing to accept the word "Rapture" since its root is found in rapiemur in the Vulgate, and rapiemur means "caught up together".

DeighAnn · Nov 27, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

Which means that you are not even clear about the Second Coming of Christ. The Bible (both Testaments) make it crystal clear that Christ will come WITH HIS SAINTS AND ANGELS FROM HEAVEN at His Second Coming.
Now simple logic should dictate that if Christ comes from Heaven with His saints, then they must have been gathered to Heaven BEFORE His Coming. Which means that He had come FOR His saints earlier. And that is precisely what the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is all about.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

That statemen is whack. Pure and simple.

Lets see, how many "saints" do you believe have lived in the last, lets just say, 6 thousand years? Still not enough? GOD needs you to go so he has enough to come back? REALLY?? That's what Pre trib rap is all about???

AND are you calling
The 144 not holy? The two witnesses SENT here, not saints and holy? How about the 7000 don't they count? What about the church of Smyrna? NOT HOLY?

SO WE CAN BE 1000% POSITIVE THAT NOT ALL THE SAINTS ARE RETURNING BECAUSE SOME ARE HERE THE WHOLE TIME. THE ONLY THING WE ARE TRYING TO ASCERTAIN, IS "WHO YOU BELIEVE IS A PART OF THIS SECRET FLIGHT TO HEAVEN AND WHO ISN'T FOR A WEDDING THAT TAKES PLACE IN SILENCE"

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
1Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. (YOU PROBABLY THINK ME ILLOGICAL HERE ALSO, BUT I DEDUCE "ALL WHO ARE ALREADY THERE")
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Nehemiah6 said:

IS THIS TOTALLY ILLOGICAL????
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you for yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night for when they shall say, Peace and safety then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child and they shall not escape.
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others but let us watch and be sober for they that sleep sleep in the night and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. (A WEDDING DRESS OR SPIRITUAL BATTLE ARMOR??)
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

I paraphrase,
FOR THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WHEN THEY SHALL SAY "PEACE AND SAFETY" THEN SUDDEN DESTRUCTION COMETH UPON THEM, BUT YE, NOT IN DARKNESS THAT THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF.

DeighAnn · Nov 27, 2019

Zechariah 4:1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.

Zechariah 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

Zechariah 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

Zechariah 4:4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?

Zechariah 4:5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

Zechariah 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Zechariah 4:7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.

Zechariah 4:8 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Zechariah 4:9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.

Zechariah 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

Zechariah 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

Zechariah 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

Zechariah 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.

WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

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