WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 27, 2019

Consider the following (with the underlined parts being how other versions translate the words you are talking about ^ ):

Ezekiel 13:20,21,23 -

English Standard Version -

“Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against your magic bands with which you hunt the souls like birds, and I will tear them from your arms, and I will let the souls whom you hunt go free, the souls like birds. Your veils also I will tear off and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand as prey, and you shall know that I am the LORD. [...] therefore you shall no more see false visions nor practice divination. I will deliver my people out of your hand. And you shall know that I am the LORD."

Young's Literal Translation -

"Therefore, thus said the Lord Jehovah: Lo, I am against your pillows, With which ye are hunting there the souls of the flourishing, And I have rent them from off your arms, And have sent away the souls that ye are hunting, The souls of the flourishing. And I have torn your kerchiefs, And delivered My people out of your hand, And they are no more in your hand for a prey, And ye have known that I am Jehovah. [...] Therefore, vanity ye do not see, And divination ye do not divine again, And I have delivered My people out of your hand, And ye have known that I am Jehovah!'"

____________

[( ^ the bolded portions not sounding too terribly different from...) 1Th1:10 (a rapture verse; one of about 10 references to that "event" in the Thessalonians, not merely the ONE mention in 1Th4:17), "the One delivering us out-from the wrath coming" (note: I am not saying that the Ezek13 verses are speaking of "our Rapture"; but that they ARE going on to speak of a "deliverance" for "My people," speaking of those of Israel in that context--I'm just pointing out the consistency, esp. when one notes v.16 of that context which stated that those falsely prophesying were saying (or, "saw") "visions of PEACE for her [/Jerusalem], and there is no peace, saith the Lord." [recall 1Th5:1-3 about the "INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR]" (which phrase you happened to LEAVE OUT OF COMPLETELY in your quoting/re-interpretation of that verse

) that is slated to "come UPON them," as the INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR] of a woman with child (but not its SOLE "birth PANG [SINGULAR]," for MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" are slated to FOLLOW that INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]," per Jesus' words in the Olivet Discourse [see Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" ('A CERTAIN ONE' bringing 'DECEPTION'), which is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" of many more to follow on from there])]

[note also: "our Rapture" involves our bodies, not just our "souls," if you are using the word "souls" in such a way]

John146 · Nov 27, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

Consider the following (with the underlined parts being how other versions translate the words you are talking about ^ ):

Ezekiel 13:20,21,23 -

English Standard Version -

“Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against your magic bands with which you hunt the souls like birds, and I will tear them from your arms, and I will let the souls whom you hunt go free, the souls like birds. Your veils also I will tear off and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand as prey, and you shall know that I am the LORD. [...] therefore you shall no more see false visions nor practice divination. I will deliver my people out of your hand. And you shall know that I am the LORD."

Young's Literal Translation -

"Therefore, thus said the Lord Jehovah: Lo, I am against your pillows, With which ye are hunting there the souls of the flourishing, And I have rent them from off your arms, And have sent away the souls that ye are hunting, The souls of the flourishing. And I have torn your kerchiefs, And delivered My people out of your hand, And they are no more in your hand for a prey, And ye have known that I am Jehovah. [...] Therefore, vanity ye do not see, And divination ye do not divine again, And I have delivered My people out of your hand, And ye have known that I am Jehovah!'"

____________

[( ^ the bolded portions not sounding too terribly different from...) 1Th1:10 (a rapture verse; one of about 10 references to that "event" in the Thessalonians, not merely the ONE mention in 1Th4:17), "the One delivering us out-from the wrath coming" (note: I am not saying that the Ezek13 verses are speaking of "our Rapture"; but that they ARE going on to speak of a "deliverance" for "My people," speaking of those of Israel in that context--I'm just pointing out the consistency, esp. when one notes v.16 of that context which stated that those falsely prophesying were saying (or, "saw") "visions of PEACE for her [/Jerusalem], and there is no peace, saith the Lord." [recall 1Th5:1-3 about the "INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR]" (which phrase you happened to LEAVE OUT OF COMPLETELY in your quoting/re-interpretation of that verse

) that is slated to "come UPON them," as the INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR] of a woman with child (but not its SOLE "birth PANG [SINGULAR]," for MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" are slated to FOLLOW that INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]," per Jesus' words in the Olivet Discourse [see Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" ('A CERTAIN ONE' bringing 'DECEPTION'), which is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" of many more to follow on from there])]

[note also: "our Rapture" involves our bodies, not just our "souls," if you are using the word "souls" in such a way]

Ezekiel is not about the Church, but God’s physical people Israel.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 27, 2019

John146 said:

I hope your intention was to "agree" with me, coz that's what I just said!

(I was endeavoring to point out how Ezek13 is NOT a "rapture" reference [as others ATTEMPT to make it be referring to]; and yet that it IS a "deliverance" kind of context, if one might take a notion to consider some OT passages as a "type" or even as an "example" [re: Israel as an example]... but that it does NOT say what the common "talking point" of anti-pretribbers are suggesting it is saying

)

DeighAnn · Nov 27, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why not go to the lexicon or interlinear? with the definitions? Strange. But ok.
I am sure you know it is " to fly" not birds 6524 parach To fly

But don't worry, Birds will be made official soon, somehow.

BUT you didn't answer my question. WHAT FALSE DOCTRINE DO YOU THINK GOD WROTE 13 ABOUT if not raptsure?

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Once again, GOD CAN PUT YOU IN THE MIDDLE OF A FIERY FURNACE HEATED 7 TIMES HOTTER THAT WILL KILL A PERSON OPENING THE DOOR AND LEAVE YOU NOT EVEN SMELLING OF SMOKE. HE DOESN'T HAVE TO TAKE YOU OFF OF THE PLANET. THAT IS HOW THE BLOOD OF CHRIST WILL KEEP YOU FROM THE WRATH TO COME, UNLESS, OF COURSE YOU DO NOT HAVE FAITH IN GOD. AND IF YOU DON'T HAVE FAITH IN GOD, YOU WOULDN'T MAKE THE "pre trib rapture" anyhow. His wrath falls upon the wicked. Not those who love Him. That's not to say we wont be refined.

And to WAIT for HIS SON is the 2nd Advent or else it would read "to wait for his Son to rapture you before the tribulation" and His second coming.

Do you not see how much of Gods Word is rendered VOID by it??? Rapsure has God writing to THOSE WHO NEVER READ and telling them what is happening and what they must do.

If JUST ONCE VERSE IS RENDERED VOID, it can not stand. Gods Word is perfect.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 27, 2019

DeighAnn said:

You have the wording here completely BACKWARDS.

Verse 3 says, "that day [from the immediately preceding verse, which was Paul cautioning them not to be convinced by anyone trying to tell them "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]"] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [ONE ITEM *FIRST* (the noun-event from v.1, here!)] AND [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..." [he is "revealed" at the START of the trib period, not its MIDDLE/v.4] (this is Paul showing the SEQUENCE/CHRONOLOGY [how "our Rapture" FITS in RELATION (time-wise) TO the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period (not 'a singular 24-hr day')], which is what is REPEATED 3x in this context).

I made a post some time back, which shows a Color-Coded Grammar chart (made originally by some grammar scholar whose name I no longer recall, nor can I find it anywhere on the Internet... my "SEARCH" skills be lacking

)

[quoting that post]

V.3 - "that day [the time period from the immediately preceding verse, grammatically] will not be present if not shall have come the departure [noun] first, and [<--this "and" means the following phrase is entirely distinct from the previous thing, which was alone "first" (one thing "first" only) [and (distinctly)-->] the man of sin be revealed..."

This sequence is repeated 3x in this passage (vv.3-8), and is the same sequence that 1Th4-5 also stated.

Here is the color-coded words to illustrate those 3x in 2Th2:3-8 -

1)

the departure first

and the man of sin

be revealed

2)

what withholdeth [/is restraining] in order that

he

might be revealed IN HIS TIME

3)

only he who is now [at present] restraining, will restrain, until out of the midst he be come [come to be]

and then [kai tote] shall that Wicked

be revealed

All of the green is referring to the noun-event of verse 1 (of the context).

Verse 2 is referring to the earthly time period that will thereafter unfold upon the earth, [with] the "man of sin" and all he will do, and will involve "judgments" and "the wrath coming" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev5:6, [Lam2:3-4 which wording parallels that of 2Th2:7b-8a])

So the DEPICTION of this looks like the following:

[X='you are here'... "first vertical line is 'arrow UP' [='THE Departure *FIRST*']"..<then DOTL will be in existence on the earth w/its 'man of sin' (SEAL #1) and 'judgments' unfolding>..."second vertical line is Jesus' "RETURN" to the earth ('arrow down') FOR the earthly MK age (note: the DOTL continues clear throughout the MK age also [including both "DARK/IN THE NIGHT" as well as the FULL LIGHT OF DAY])]

-----X---l_<DOTL>__________l______________<1000y>_______________>

V.3 - "that day [the DOTL time period] will not be present, if not shall have come THE Departure FIRST, and the man of sin be revealed..."

(he is revealed at the START of the 7-yrs [2Th2:9a/8a], not at its MIDDLE [2Th2:4] [mid-trib not shown in the depiction ^ here], nor at its END [2Th2:8b] [@ vertical arrow down (Christ's 2nd Coming to the earth / His "RETURN" ["RETURN" (biblically speaking) is used only of His Second Coming to the earth])])

[end quoting that post]

DeighAnn · Nov 27, 2019

John146 said:

It is about false doctrine.

And once again, WHO IS THE CHURCH??? the scattered sheep of Israel, who Jesus came for and the gentiles to whom eternal life was offered and whomsoever would. CHRISTIANS. Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 27, 2019

DeighAnn said:

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/6524.htm - H6524

So, I was pointing out that "what those falsely prophesying" to Israel, was not the underlined words of my prev post [having to do with "fly"] but is found elsewhere in the context (I gave an example, v.16, where it says, they/those falsely prophesying "see visions of PEACE for her [/Jerusalem], and there is no peace, saith the Lord God"). I believe the word in question is DESCRIBING "the souls/persons" [what they ARE ALREADY] (NOT saying what the false prophets are trying to CONVINCE them of, or MAKE THEM to be, or to be convinced of):

https://biblehub.com/text/ezekiel/13-20.htm

“Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against your magic bands with which you hunt the souls like birds, and I will tear them from your arms, and I will let the souls whom you hunt go free, the souls like birds."

DeighAnn · Nov 27, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

You have the wording here completely BACKWARDS.

Verse 3 says, "that day [from the immediately preceding verse, which was Paul cautioning them not to be convinced by anyone trying to tell them "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]"] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [ONE ITEM *FIRST* (the noun-event from v.1, here!)] AND [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..." [he is "revealed" at the START of the trib period, not its MIDDLE/v.4] (this is Paul showing the SEQUENCE/CHRONOLOGY [how "our Rapture" FITS in RELATION (time-wise) TO the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period (not 'a singular 24-hr day')], which is what is REPEATED 3x in this context).

I made a post some time back, which shows a Color-Coded Grammar chart (made originally by some grammar scholar whose name I no longer recall, nor can I find it anywhere on the Internet... my "SEARCH" skills be lacking

)

[quoting that post]

V.3 - "that day [the time period from the immediately preceding verse, grammatically] will not be present if not shall have come the departure [noun] first, and [<--this "and" means the following phrase is entirely distinct from the previous thing, which was alone "first" (one thing "first" only) [and (distinctly)-->] the man of sin be revealed..."

This sequence is repeated 3x in this passage (vv.3-8), and is the same sequence that 1Th4-5 also stated.

Here is the color-coded words to illustrate those 3x in 2Th2:3-8 -

1)

the departure first

and the man of sin

be revealed

2)

what withholdeth [/is restraining] in order that

he

might be revealed IN HIS TIME

3)

only he who is now [at present] restraining, will restrain, until out of the midst he be come [come to be]

and then [kai tote] shall that Wicked

be revealed

All of the green is referring to the noun-event of verse 1 (of the context).

Verse 2 is referring to the earthly time period that will thereafter unfold upon the earth, [with] the "man of sin" and all he will do, and will involve "judgments" and "the wrath coming" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev5:6, [Lam2:3-4 which wording parallels that of 2Th2:7b-8a])

So the DEPICTION of this looks like the following:

[X='you are here'... "first vertical line is 'arrow UP' [='THE Departure *FIRST*']"..<then DOTL will be in existence on the earth w/its 'man of sin' (SEAL #1) and 'judgments' unfolding>..."second vertical line is Jesus' "RETURN" to the earth ('arrow down') FOR the earthly MK age (note: the DOTL continues clear throughout the MK age also [including both "DARK/IN THE NIGHT" as well as the FULL LIGHT OF DAY])]

-----X---l_<DOTL>__________l______________<1000y>_______________>

V.3 - "that day [the DOTL time period] will not be present, if not shall have come THE Departure FIRST, and the man of sin be revealed..."

(he is revealed at the START of the 7-yrs [2Th2:9a/8a], not at its MIDDLE [2Th2:4] [mid-trib not shown in the depiction ^ here], nor at its END [2Th2:8b] [@ vertical arrow down (Christ's 2nd Coming to the earth / His "RETURN" ["RETURN" (biblically speaking) is used only of His Second Coming to the earth])])

[end quoting that post]

2 Thessalonians 2:1
We implore now you, brothers, by the coming of the Lord of us Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him,

2:2 for not quickly to be shaken you in mind nor to be troubled neither by spirit nor by word nor by letter as if by us

as that is present the day of the Lord

2:3 No one you should deceive in not one way because IT IS

if not {until} shall have come the apostasy first and shall have been revealed

the man of lawlesness, the son of destruction

2:4 the {one} opposing and exalting himself above every so-called god or object of worship so as for him in the temple of God to sit down setting forth he himself that is God.

2:5 Not do you remember that yet being with you these things I was saying to you?

DeighAnn · Nov 27, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

I got nothing. Every time I read, I think you are saying something, I go back and read and I think you are saying something else, so I go back and read and neither of those seem to be what you are saying, so I get tired of the puzzle and just quit.

DeighAnn · Nov 27, 2019

DeighAnn said:

Which is kind of a bummer because I think you know so much (have much knowledge) but have been posting for so long that you try to cover every contingency with every post (which I understand, don't leave anything out or that is what they go after seems easier to just head them off at the pass) that it comes across convoluted. I think.

Ahwatukee · Nov 27, 2019

RevelationMan said:

Good day RevelationMan,

Yes, I do believe that "what we believe has something to do with what happens to us. For example, Paul spoke about Hymenaeus and Philetus, who were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place of which he called godless chatter and that those who indulge in it would become more and more ungodly. And that their teaching would spread like gangrene and that because of this teaching that had departed from the truth and thereby destroying the faith of some. Therefore, we have an example here of those who have wandered from the truth because of their false teaching. (2 Tim.2:16)

We also have Peter stating that Paul's writings are wisdom from God, referring to them as scripture which he said ignorant and unstable people were distorting, as they do the other scripture and that to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:15)

However, the church completed when the Lord appears and calls up those who are ready. Anyone who remains here after that, do not belong to the church. They are saved, but do not belong to the church. In Revelation 7:9-17, John sees a group of white robed saints from every nation, tribe, people and language (Gentiles) which no man can count. The elder asks John who these are, which demonstrates that this group is not the church, which John had just previously written letters to. Regarding this, John says that he doesn't know who they are. Then the elder tells him, "these are those who have come out of the great tribulation. These are the saints that are referred to throughout the narrative of God's wrath. They are never referred to as the church, but as "hagios" translated as "saints." These will be those who had not believed in Jesus prior to His appearing to gather his church, as well as those who were not watching or ready. In opposition, the word "ekklesia" translated "church" is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and the word saints is never used interchangeably within those same chapters. The word church disappears after the end of chapter 3.

My point in all of this is that, those who are false teachers, those who have gone back into the world and are once again living according to the sinful nature, if they are doing so at the time when the Lord appears to call up His church, then they will remain here during the time of God's wrath. Those who repent and believe in Jesus during that time will be saved, but are not apart of the church, but are the great tribulation saints. To be clear, the church period ends at the time the church is gathered.

In answer to your other concern, the inhabitants of the earth during that time will not be protected from the major effects of God's wrath and survive the tribulation. In fact, the majority of the great tribulation saints will be killed because of their testimony for Jesus and the word of God. And who will not have worshiped the beast, his image, nor received his mark. Those of the great tribulation saints who make it through the time of God's wrath, will be the wheat who, at the end of the age, are gathered and brought into the millennial kingdom and will repopulate the earth, along with the remnant of Israel.

We have scripture (Rev.7:16) which demonstrates that the great tribulation saints will in fact be exposed to God's wrath and that simply because they will be on the earth during that time.

"Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat."

The first part of the verse is referring to the third seal rider on the black horse which represents famine, as well as the other plagues of wrath that will cause food shortage.

The reference to "never again will they thirst" is referring to the third trumpet where a third of the rivers and springs of water are contaminated causing many who drink it to die. (Rev.8:10-11). This is also in reference to the pouring out of the second and third bowls, where the oceans and fresh water are turned into literal blood.

The reference to the sun not beating down on them nor any scorching heat, is referring to the fourth bowl judgment, where the angel pours out his bowl on the sun allowing the inhabitants of the earth to be scorched with fire and seared with intense heat. No one will be protected from that. Everyone on the earth will be exposed to these plagues, which is why Jesus continually tells believers to watch and be ready so that this day does not close on us like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. (Luke 21:34-36), This is the same period that Jesus promises to those who overcome and endure patiently, that He will keep them out of that hour of trial (Rev.3:10)

So, all believers should be watching and ready, having an extra jar of oil with them when the Lord appears so that we will be caught up when the Lord comes. For those who are not, they can still be saved, however, many of those great tribulation saints will be persecuted and will die keeping their testimony of Jesus and the word of God.

Blessings!

Absolutely · Nov 27, 2019

RevelationMan said:

Yes...sort of.
In the parable of the wedding guests there are several groups.
I believe the last group is the ripe fruit of rev 14.

There are two harvests grain and grapes.

Israel is the ripe fruit...rev 14

John146 · Nov 27, 2019

DeighAnn said:

The Church is not scattered sheep, that’s Israel. Once again you fail to rightly divide the Church from Israel.

The Church is all the members of the body of Christ, from the resurrection until now. The Church is a live body still growing. Christ is the head.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 27, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

- https://biblehub.com/hebrew/6524.htm

So I was looking around the web for some examples of "verbal adjectives" (perhaps some "grammar scholars" can help out), here's one I found FOR EXAMPLE:

"participle - verbal form used only as an adjective. Actually, present and perfect participles can also form multipart verbs, together with auxiliary verbs (e.g. I am waiting), but outside this role, they only function as adjectives (e.g. closed store, running water)."

"the souls like birds" or "the souls flourishing" (where the verb-word in question ['fly'/'like birds'/'flourishing'] is DESCRIBING "the souls/persons" [who are being led astray by those falsely prophesying] NOT what [/the CONTENT of what] those falsely prophesying were TELLING those ppl! See the difference??)

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 27, 2019

^ EDIT (was timed-out before I could CORRECT this): I accidentally INSERTED my info (quote from BibleHub) INTO my box-quote above, instead of placing it OUTSIDE of the quoted portion, plz find it there

DeighAnn · Nov 27, 2019

John146 said:

But the ones who have died are in heaven and wont be returning until the Lords Day. That is why this fig tree generation is a chosen generation. The first shall be last....

Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
And does He lose even one? No, they are the Christians of today. The Church.

WHO DO YOU THINK MAKES UP THE CHURCH OF TODAY? You want the sheep scattered around the world to be "the nation of Israel" To be the "land" or to be the Jews of the land of Israel, or to be who??

Ahwatukee · Nov 27, 2019

RevelationMan said:

RevelationMan, the two witnesses are just two witnesses. They do no represent any churches. The true church will have been removed from the earth in Rev.4:1, which is why we don't see the word "church" used any more.

The scripture states that "the breath of life from God enters them" and a voice from heaven says to them "come up here." It is only them who resurrect and are caught up. In addition, they could not be representing the church being caught up and that because it would put the living church through all of the seals and trumpets, which is the majority of God's wrath. Since believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then we must be removed prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

The church will have been gathered in the air at least 3 1/2 years prior to when the two witnesses resurrect.

John146 · Nov 27, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

RevelationMan, the two witnesses are just two witnesses. They do no represent any churches. The true church will have been removed from the earth in Rev.4:1, which is why we don't see the word "church" used any more.

The scripture states that "the breath of life from God enters them" and a voice from heaven says to them "come up here." It is only them who resurrect and are caught up. In addition, they could not be representing the church being caught up and that because it would put the living church through all of the seals and trumpets, which is the majority of God's wrath. Since believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then we must be removed prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

The church will have been gathered in the air at least 3 1/2 years prior to when the two witnesses resurrect.

I guess hundreds of thousands of bodies will be lying in the streets of Jerusalem for three and a half days.😛

Ahwatukee · Nov 27, 2019

DeighAnn said:

The church is not the nation Israel. The church is made up of both Jew and Gentile. The nation Israel is a separate dispensation whom God has unfinished business with. For regarding them He said:

"Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place."

The above will be accomplished regarding the decree upon the nation Israel.

Ahwatukee · Nov 27, 2019

John146 said:

It would seem so, if that were true.

WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

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