Former RNC chair: was no one in the room with Trump?

[Dan_473]

Are you trying to equate abortion with a child being stillborn?! What's your point here?

Interestingly, the word rendered stillborn there can also be translated as miscarriage or abortion.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5309.htm

My point is that abortion is not a black-and-white issue. So, believing that abortion is wrong, as I do, does not equal
always vote Republican.

 

[PennEd]

No, I didn't say that.

I already agreed that abortion is wrong.

I asked if you agreed with a particular scripture. If you would like to answer that, then we can progress.

Otherwise, we can just stop here and I'll say peace be with you!

It's "wrong" to jaywalk. It's wrong to fudge on you taxes. It's wrong to cheat at games.


It's more than "wrong" to tear a baby limb from limb, or burn it to pieces with acid, then suck her out and sell whatever parts are left.

The passage you cite is utterly irrelevant to this discussion. You are trying to rationalize to yourself for voting for people that enable this atrocity.

 

[kaylagrl]

Interestingly, the word rendered stillborn there can also be translated as miscarriage or abortion.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5309.htm

My point is that abortion is not a black-and-white issue. So, believing that abortion is wrong, as I do, does not equal
always vote Republican.

My mother was a nurse. I know the difference between an abortion and a stillborn death. One is done violently with the intent to murder the child, the other isn't. Simple.

And yes, it is a black and white issue. 60 million abortions since Roe, those are only the ones we know of. The number is far larger. Abortion is murder, black and white. And it's one of many reasons to vote Rep.

 

[kaylagrl]

No, I didn't say that.

I already agreed that abortion is wrong.

I asked if you agreed with a particular scripture. If you would like to answer that, then we can progress.

Otherwise, we can just stop here and I'll say peace be with you!

It's more than just wrong, it's murder.

 

[Dan_473]

It's "wrong" to jaywalk. It's wrong to fudge on you taxes. It's wrong to cheat at games.


It's more than "wrong" to tear a baby limb from limb, or burn it to pieces with acid, then suck her out and sell whatever parts are left.

I think the word wrong can properly be used for all those situations.


Jeremiah 22: 3. Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

Here, God uses the shedding of innocent blood as an example of wrong.

Colossians 3: 25. But he who does wrong will receive again for the wrong that he has done, and there is no partiality.

I think that God gives different levels of punishment for different levels of wrong.

The passage you cite is utterly irrelevant to this discussion.

I disagree.

I think the passage is very important in showing that abortion is not a black-and-white issue.

Peace be with you.

 

[Dan_473]

My mother was a nurse. I know the difference between an abortion and a stillborn death. One is done violently with the intent to murder the child, the other isn't. Simple.

I've heard that Hebrew has a very limited vocabulary. Each word often has several meanings. In this case, the word can be translated as stillborn, miscarriage, or abortion.

And yes, it is a black and white issue. 60 million abortions since Roe, those are only the ones we know of. The number is far larger.

I disagree. I don't think abortion is a black-and-white issue, I posted a scripture for support.

I also posted a study showing that making abortion illegal isn't the best way to reduce the number of abortions.

The number of times a thing happens has no bearing on whether or not it is a black and white issue, morally speaking.

 

[Dan_473]

It's more than just wrong, it's murder.

As I talked about above, I think the word wrong can be used for abortion.

But yes I agree that abortion is also murder.

 

[Billyd]

If a bill to ban abortion some how makes it to the floor of the Senate, I doubt that it could muster enough votes to pass.

The only way that we will stop abortions is by teaching our children that life is a sacred gift from God.

 

[PennEd]

I think the word wrong can properly be used for all those situations.


Jeremiah 22: 3. Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

Here, God uses the shedding of innocent blood as an example of wrong.

Colossians 3: 25. But he who does wrong will receive again for the wrong that he has done, and there is no partiality.

I think that God gives different levels of punishment for different levels of wrong.


I disagree.

I think the passage is very important in showing that abortion is not a black-and-white issue.

Peace be with you.

You REALLY wanna see a black and white issue?

Well here ya go! Now tell me again how tearing that baby apart fits WITH ANY SCRIPTURE?



Amazing Image of Unborn Baby at 18 Weeks is Called the Photograph of the Century
INTERNATIONAL MICAIAH BILGER NOV 18, 2019 | 3:54PM WASHINGTON, DC

 

[Dan_473]

Conservatives have had a majority in the Supreme Court multiple times and refused to change the Roe vs Wade decision. Why has it not changed? Yes, we know technically that Supreme Court Justices are "neutral", or suppose to be anyways, but are not appointed based off of their neutral/objective positions, but instead because they are heavily biased in favor of the president's ideology. In fact, many people didn't like Trump but voted for him because they felt the Supreme Court appointees was the most important reason to go ahead and vote for him over Hillary.

Why haven't they changed it? Why has there not been pressure on these "Conservative" justices? We can poke fingers and curse/rebuke all the Democrats, we can call them "baby killers", but the justices the conservative people champion are doing absolutely nothing to change it. Democrats, even the biggest pro-choicers are incapable of changing Roe vs Wade... but your conservative justices CAN. Why not poke at them? Why not call them baby killers?

It's easy to say you're "pro-life" just as it's easy to say you're a Christian... but action is needed, not just empty words.

I'm not from this country, so I don't honestly know how it all works and what it would take to change Roe. I do know Planned Parenthood has their hair on fire over Trump. He's done enough against abortion that they despise him. On the other hand Dems are now talking killing a baby after birth. The old doc let that secret slip. Conservatives have a long way to go to get rid of abortion but the Dems are literally running in the other direction.

As I understand it, the supreme Court in the USA cannot simply issue decisions. There has to be an active court case that has worked its way through all the other levels of courts and then appealed to the supreme Court. Then they can hear that case and render a decision.

In practice, I think what's happening is that Alabama (and some other states too?) have passed legislation outlawing abortion.

The law was challenged in federal court and struck down. This was expected. The plan is that Alabama will appeal through the various levels of courts and finally to the supreme Court where the hope is that roe v Wade will be overturned.

 

[Dan_473]

You REALLY wanna see a black and white issue?

Well here ya go! Now tell me again how tearing that baby apart fits WITH ANY SCRIPTURE?



Amazing Image of Unborn Baby at 18 Weeks is Called the Photograph of the Century
INTERNATIONAL MICAIAH BILGER NOV 18, 2019 | 3:54PM WASHINGTON, DC

Ecclesiastes 6: 3. I say, that a stillborn child is better than he.

Whether the stillbirth is from natural causes, the morning after pill, or being torn apart, it still qualifies as a stillbirth.

As I've said several times, the word translated stillborn above can also be translated as miscarriage or abortion.

But I sense at this point you are playing word games, making a kind of pun out of the phrase black and white issue by posting a black and white photograph. If that's the case, I recommend we stop, and I will say
Peace be with you!

 

[PennEd]

Ecclesiastes 6: 3. I say, that a stillborn child is better than he.

Whether the stillbirth is from natural causes, the morning after pill, or being torn apart, it still qualifies as a stillbirth.

As I've said several times, the word translated stillborn above can also be translated as miscarriage or abortion.

But I sense at this point you are playing word games, making a kind of pun out of the phrase black and white issue by posting a black and white photograph. If that's the case, I recommend we stop, and I will say
Peace be with you!

Wish I could give something stronger than a red X.
Maybe CC can give us 10 SUPER disagrees per year. I'd use 5 on your post here!
To equate natural cause stillbirth with murder is really revolting.

 

[Dan_473]

To equate natural cause stillbirth with murder is really revolting.

I did not equate an unborn child that dies from natural causes with murder.

What I am saying is that whether the stillbirth is from natural causes, the morning after pill, or being torn apart, I think Ecclesiastes 6:3 applies.

 

[17Bees]

I did not equate an unborn child that dies from natural causes with murder.

What I am saying is that whether the stillbirth is from natural causes, the morning after pill, or being torn apart, I think Ecclesiastes 6:3 applies.

Dan, I think the elephant in the room concerning your scenario are the voice(s) ignored - that of the child and that of God. Could be the child would choose life with a mother that wanted to kill him/her over abortion. Could be the child could find a way out of a very bad situation at birth. You don't know. Furthermore, you're making the choice for the child without knowing God's plan for that child. Pretty risky call.

Ecclesiastes 6:3 was written as a worst case scenario projection. That man who doesn't even have a burial - it would be better if he had never lived (NIV). Not as a license for genocidal murder, so no I don't think the verse applies.

Look - if you are a Deist or maybe agnostic I kind of understand the concept of abortion. The mechanics of a pregnancy are built in and work finely as the earth revolving about the sun. Logical choice would be the axiom for letting a child be born or taking them off-line like a lemon refrigerator. But as a Christian, I believe in Divine Reason as axiom for life because I don't know God's plans or His future, but I do believe in them for the ultimate Good. And as a living God, I further believe in Divine Intervention in accordance with His plans.

Taking a life is reprehensible to God, therefore it is to me too. That's why I could never support anyone who is either complicit or accomplice or personally guilty of doing so.

 

[HeraldtheNews]

This is a real test for me. I am literally afraid for how much I despise Democrats. I know the Lord doesn't want me to think this way, but these people are so wicked and hate America so much, it's difficult not to despise them, and their stupid supporters, who are so ignorant, I find it difficult to converse with them.

Is that a Christian reply? How exactly are democrats "wicked" "hate America" and did the Lord say to "despise your enemies?".

I am a moderate conservative, but agree with democrats on issues such as dramatic justice reform, dramatic environmental protection, dramatic medical insurance reform that allows access to life-saving medical care and preventative care, caring for vulnerable citizens, to name a few. All of these things are supported by the Bible.

 

[Susanna]

Have to say some of the comments displayed in this thread are troublesome.

If some of my people had been displaying so much anger and lack of self control on social media platforms or IRL I would have immediately ordered them to my office for a brief. If that didn’t do the trick they’d find themselves suspended swiftly.

 

[PennEd]

Is that a Christian reply? How exactly are democrats "wicked" "hate America" and did the Lord say to "despise your enemies?".

I am a moderate conservative, but agree with democrats on issues such as dramatic justice reform, dramatic environmental protection, dramatic medical insurance reform that allows access to life-saving medical care and preventative care, caring for vulnerable citizens, to name a few. All of these things are supported by the Bible.

Yeah..... Thought about attempting to address the ignorance in this post in some type of nice way.

Couldn’t find a way. So instead I’ll just say Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family!!

 

[Dan_473]

Dan, I think the elephant in the room concerning your scenario are the voice(s) ignored - that of the child and that of God.

I think this raises an interesting point of Bible interpretation. Are the words of the preacher there in Ecclesiastes 6:3 the words of God? Or are they something that is recorded in the Bible, but not to be taken as truth? An example of this would be that the Bible also records some of the words of Satan.

I think if you'll look back earlier in the thread, you'll see that I asked another user if they agreed with this verse. It's a serious question, are the words of the preacher the words of God, or the words of a man?

Taking a life is reprehensible to God, therefore it is to me too.

It is reprehensible to me as well, and that's why I wouldn't encourage someone to have an abortion.

But taking that view into the political realm, does it equal always vote Republican?

 

[Dan_473]

Have to say some of the comments displayed in this thread are troublesome.

If some of my people had been displaying so much anger and lack of self control on social media platforms or IRL I would have immediately ordered them to my office for a brief. If that didn’t do the trick they’d find themselves suspended swiftly.

People do get worked up, unfortunately. We all struggle with our flesh. I also get worked up, but not usually about politics, for me the trigger is old memories of times I think I was taken advantage of. May the holy Spirit who dwells in all who believe continue his work!

Who do you mean by "my people"? People in your office? Or classroom? Some other place?

 

[17Bees]

I think this raises an interesting point of Bible interpretation. Are the words of the preacher there in Ecclesiastes 6:3 the words of God? Or are they something that is recorded in the Bible, but not to be taken as truth? An example of this would be that the Bible also records some of the words of Satan.

I think if you'll look back earlier in the thread, you'll see that I asked another user if they agreed with this verse. It's a serious question, are the words of the preacher the words of God, or the words of a man?



It is reprehensible to me as well, and that's why I wouldn't encourage someone to have an abortion.

But taking that view into the political realm, does it equal always vote Republican?

Concerning Ecclesiastes, I believe God speaks to us through stories and parables like Christ did. I think He means for us to understand the intent of the story as a whole and not in part, and when King Solomon, son of David and definitely a man wrote Ecclesiastes it was a lesson in attaining wisdom through sorrow and surrender. I always have some issue with taking single verses and reaching "biblical" conclusions.

I'm glad you consider abortion reprehensible and though taking that view into a political realm does not always equal voting Republican, it usually will. Case in point, I voted Democrat for a US congressman who was vehemently opposed to abortion, though his affiliation as democrat was largely pro choice. I guess I could argue that this congressman's affiliation was an act of being complicit with the laws of abortion, but I felt his attendance as a democrat was one more chink in the pro choice armor. Besides, he was a good right of moderate politician. He lost his second term because he was a democrat when the house went republican.