Hades / The Grave

[John146]

Nineveh was not overthrown. . because they heard the gospel (God turning and repenting, away from his fierce anger) and they were given the faith to believe the invisible One. Jonas wanted to end his life it made him look like a unbeliever.

The message Jonah preached was not a gospel message but a message of destruction, “yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown.” Nineveh believed God was going to destroy them in forty days, thus they decided to repent and cry out for mercy. Maybe God might change His mind and show them mercy and not do what he said he was going to do. God repented and did not do what He said He was going to do.

 

[garee]

The message Jonah preached was not a gospel message but a message of destruction, “yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown.” Nineveh believed God was going to destroy them in forty days, thus they decided to repent and cry out for mercy. Maybe God might change His mind and show them mercy and not do what he said he was going to do. God repented and did not do what He said He was going to do.

The gospel that gave them the faith of Christ needed to hear God and therefore believe . . moving them to repent as it worked in them to both will and perform the good pleasure of God. . The gospel. God repenting and not destroying.

Suffering the pangs of a living suffering as the wrath of God moved Jonas from the heart of the earth to preach to the Ninevites. He still wanted to end his life because of his hatred . The reluctant preacher .

 

[John146]

The gospel that gave them the faith of Christ needed to hear God and therefore believe . . moving them to repent as it worked in them to both will and perform the good pleasure of God. . The gospel. God repenting and not destroying.

Suffering the pangs of a living suffering as the wrath of God moved Jonas from the heart of the earth to preach to the Ninevites. He still wanted to end his life because of his hatred . The reluctant preacher .

No one had the faith of Christ prior to the resurrection. Nineveh simply believed God, the message of destruction. No gospel was preached.

 

[TheLearner]

amen!

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead don’t know anything. There is no longer a reward for them because the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love, their hate, and their envy have already disappeared, and there is no longer a portion for them in all that is done under the sun.

Isaiah 14:9-11 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
9 Sheol below is eager to greet your coming,
stirring up the spirits of the departed for you—
all the rulers[a] of the earth—
making all the kings of the nations
rise from their thrones.
10 They all respond to you, saying,
“You too have become as weak as we are;
you have become like us!
11 Your splendor has been brought down to Sheol,
along with the music of your harps.
Maggots are spread out under you,
and worms cover you.”

It is clear from the proof text that those who have died, no longer know what is happening among the living. Isaiah above makes it plain that the dead are alive and rest as we do among the living.

 

[TheLearner]

Depends on how you look at it. Jonah declared that in forty days Nineveh would be overthrown. Nineveh was not overthrown. It made Jonah look like a false prophet.

That prophecy was conditional. right?

 

[TheLearner]

When one is asleep they are alive and a noise wakes them up.

 

[John146]

That prophecy was conditional. right?

Nope. No, “if you don’t repent.” It’s not there.

4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

 

[TheLearner]

Revelation 5:13 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
13 I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth, on the sea, and everything in them say,

Blessing and honor and glory and power
be to the one seated on the throne,
and to the Lamb, forever and ever!

Philippians 2 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
Christian Humility
2 If then there is any encouragement in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any affection and mercy, 2 make my joy complete by thinking the same way, having the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility consider others as more important than yourselves. 4 Everyone should look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.

Christ’s Humility and Exaltation
5 Adopt the same attitude as that of Christ Jesus,

6 who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
as something to be exploited.[a]
7 Instead he emptied himself
by assuming the form of a servant,
taking on the likeness of humanity.
And when he had come as a man,
8 he humbled himself by becoming obedient
to the point of death—
even to death on a cross.
9 For this reason God highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee will bow—
in heaven and on earth
and under the earth—
11 and every tongue will confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Lights in the World
12 Therefore, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, so now, not only in my presence but even more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God who is working in you both to will and to work according to his good purpose. 14 Do everything without grumbling and arguing, 15 so that you may be blameless and pure, children of God who are faultless in a crooked and perverted generation, among whom you shine like stars in the world, 16 by holding firm to the word of life. Then I can boast in the day of Christ that I didn’t run or labor for nothing. 17 But even if I am poured out as a drink offering on the sacrificial service of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18 In the same way you should also be glad and rejoice with me.

 

[TheLearner]

Nope. No, “if you don’t repent.” It’s not there.

4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

So, we can agree that God changed his mind? Based on their change of behavior.

Jonah 3 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
God Calls and Jonah Obeys
3 Then the Lord spoke to Jonah again and said, 2 “Go to that big city Nineveh, and say what I tell you.”

3 So Jonah obeyed the Lord and went to Nineveh. It was a very large city. A person had to walk for three days to travel through it.

4 Jonah went to the center of the city and began speaking to the people. He said, “After 40 days, Nineveh will be destroyed!”

5 The people of Nineveh believed God. They decided to stop eating for a time to think about their sins. They put on special clothes to show they were sorry. All the people in the city did this, from the most important to the least important.

6 When the king of Nineveh heard about this, he left his throne, removed his robe, put on special clothes to show that he was sorry, and sat in ashes.[a] 7 The king wrote a special message and sent it throughout the city:

A command from the king and his great rulers:

For a short time no person or animal should eat anything. No herd or flock will be allowed in the fields. Nothing living in Nineveh will eat or drink water. 8 But every person and every animal must be covered with a special cloth to show they are sad. People must cry loudly to God. Everyone must change their life and stop doing bad things. 9 Who knows? Maybe God will stop being angry and change his mind, and we will not be punished.

10 God saw what the people did. He saw that they stopped doing evil. So God changed his mind and did not do what he planned. He did not punish the people.

 

[John146]

So, we can agree that God changed his mind?

Exactly. God had every intention of destroying them in forty days.

 

[Pinkney]

Nobody is in heaven or hell yet! I believe the dead are asleep. Paul may have said: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. OK, to close your eyes at night: presto - it is morning. It is the same principal.

Nobody is in heaven yet: John 3:13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." They are asleep.

Acts 2:29: "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."

Acts 2:34, 35: "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool."

All the OT patriarchs are mentioned in Heb.11 and none of them have received their reward yet. Heb. 12 is just a reference to Mount Zion which is new Jerusalem, yet future. Heb. 11:40: "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." New Jerusalem is being prepared and is coming to earth with the "many mansions" that the father is preparing.

Be aware that Sheol and Hades simply refers to the grave. Our doctrine of a dwelling place of the dead is inserted into Strong's Concordance as a reference. The reference in Revelation where they are tormented day and night forever, their smoke ascending forever could refer to something captured on film, therefore forever preserved. The reference in Mark 9:44: "Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" I believe is another example of that. It just does not make sense of a maggot that never dies.

All said, as I stated before all scripture has to fit together, in what we teach, or none of it is valid. Some things were presented in parables with figurative speech. Some things maybe we don't quite understand yet. God will not reveal some things until He is ready for us to know.

I feel Lazarus and the rich man is a parable despite the proper names. Besides it is just in one place in scripture without a second witness. 2 Cor. 13:1 "This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."

2 Corinthians 5-8 New International Version (NIV)

Awaiting the New Body
5 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

 

[TheLearner]

No one had the faith of Christ prior to the resurrection. Nineveh simply believed God, the message of destruction. No gospel was preached.

Luke 11:32“On the judgment day, you people who live now will also be compared with the people from Nineveh, and they will be witnesses who show how guilty you are. I say this because when Jonah preached to those people, they changed their hearts and lives. And you are listening to someone greater than Jonah, but you refuse to change!

 

[TheLearner]

latrine break

 

[garee]

No one had the faith of Christ prior to the resurrection. Nineveh simply believed God, the message of destruction. No gospel was preached.

By a work of faith also called a labor of love, Christ the Holy Spirit of God, worked in Abel to both will and do His good pleasure. Abel performed the work and brought of the firstlings of his flock this revealed the grace of God worked in him..

Genesis 4 King James Version (KJV) And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord. And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

 

[Dino246]

By a work of faith also called a labor of love, Christ the Holy Spirit of God, worked in Abel to both will and do His good pleasure. Abel performed the work and brought of the firstlings of his flock this revealed the grace of God worked in him..

Genesis 4 King James Version (KJV) And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord. And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Your argument is based on the fallacy of anachronism. That is applying a later truth to an earlier situation, when that truth was not available.

 

[TheLearner]

why is this Jonah thing important?

I think what matters is Jonah was alive, awake in the sea monster. I wonder if he had a pocket knife to leave his initials on the wall.

 

[John146]

why is this Jonah thing important?

I think what matters is Jonah was alive, awake in the sea monster. I wonder if he had a pocket knife to leave his initials on the wall.

His body was dead, soul in hell and it was a whale.

 

[garee]

His body was dead, soul in hell and it was a whale.

The suffering of hell is a living work. (by reason of suffering)The dead know nothing, feel nothing, have nothing (no spirit) to move a dead body that return to the dust. .

God does not accept dead sacrifices. It was the work of two. The father places the rebel Jonas in the whale nd moved Jonas to cry out for spirit strengthen after there times, three denoting the end of the matter God delivered Jonas to perform his good pleasure. Those who heard and believed were added to the bride of Christ. Jonas went back to his hating.

 

[garee]

Your argument is based on the fallacy of anachronism. That is applying a later truth to an earlier situation, when that truth was not available.

Not sure what you mean? What truth was not revealed to later? His or it as sin, the result of him the god of this world lording it over Cain .?

 

[Dino246]

Not sure what you mean? What truth was not revealed to later? His or it as sin, the result of him the god of this world lording it over Cain .?

Abel was killed at least 3500 years before Christ was born, therefore Abel could not have had the faith of Christ. Abel had faith in God.