3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists

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John146

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I believe in election. Jesus Christ is God’s elect. Israel is God’s elect nation. There are elect angels. In no case are these elected for salvation but for service.
God elected Jacob over Esau for the seed line, Abel over Cain, Isaac over Ishmael, David over Saul, etc...
 

cv5

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God elected Jacob over Esau for the seed line, Abel over Cain, Isaac over Ishmael, David over Saul, etc...
They sure didn't elect themselves. Abraham did not call himself either.
 

cv5

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doesn't matter

the problem is making no allowance, AGAIN, for the fact that God works with what He has

in other words, God hardened Pharaoh's heart but Pharaoh hardened his own heart so God blessed him in that condition...multiplied it (a bit sarcastic there but I am sure you get it)

I did a post on that exact thing today somewhere around here

Calvinists will not answer to that because it destroys all this preordained, predetermined, postage paid salvation peddling
"so God blessed him in that condition"

I think you are confusing devastating judgments with blessing.

"Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your grandson how I have dealt harshly with the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them, that you may know that I am the LORD.”
 

Whispered

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If you can prove that this scripture is referring to someone other than Judas of Kerioth, have at it.
The scripture already 'had at it', when we are told Satan was in that son of Simon. Satan is that one doomed to destruction.
What would we believe of our precious God were we to accept that God used Judas so as to have Jesus fulfill the mission He was born for, and after Jesus Himself told Judas to go and do what he must do quickly, if the reward for insuring the final blood sacrifice for the sins of the world was eternal destruction?
Judas repented of the sin he was actually not personally responsible for being Satan was in him. He returned the silver to the elders of the temple who sought to buy the Savior of the world's life for thirty silver shekels of Tyros. They wanted to kill the Messiah , charging Him with blasphemy, to assure their status as leaders of God's chosen. And yet, they used Rome's currency, and their authority to renounce that prophecy fulfilled; Messiah come.

Did they repent of that? Do they to this day? Or are there Jews they'd consider apostate that have become apostate because they know Messiah was Emmanuel.
They walked to Golgotha and watched their plotting unfold to its end. Having insured that it would not be Jesus released as per the tradition just before Passover, of setting one prisoner free, as the Romans bade it happen time and again year after year. And using their authority over their Jewish congregants to chant for release of a zealot and a thief instead; Barabbas. [The Book of Matthew chapter 27]

Judas repented, returned the silver, and put himself on God's mercies as he hanged himself from a tree. Being a Jew, knowing full well what that meant; cursed is anyone who dies on a tree. The Book of Deuteronomy chapter 22.

I believe he was forgiven. Because God tells us it was Satan within him doing these things. And the man when he realized what he had done was ashamed.
Jesus said from the cross, and this for me is key proof of that, Father forgive them for they know not what they do.
Judas, under Satan's control, did not know what he was doing. But Satan did.

Satan is the son of Perdition destined to destruction. Why do I believe this? Because Jesus chose Judas to be His Disciple. And told Judas in the upper room where the first communion was to take place, go and do what ye must do quickly.
Satan cannot do anything God doesn't permit him to do. The Book of Job chapter 1.
 

cv5

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The scripture already 'had at it', when we are told Satan was in that son of Simon. Satan is that one doomed to destruction.
What would we believe of our precious God were we to accept that God used Judas so as to have Jesus fulfill the mission He was born for, and after Jesus Himself told Judas to go and do what he must do quickly, if the reward for insuring the final blood sacrifice for the sins of the world was eternal destruction?
Judas repented of the sin he was actually not personally responsible for being Satan was in him. He returned the silver to the elders of the temple who sought to buy the Savior of the world's life for thirty silver shekels of Tyros. They wanted to kill the Messiah , charging Him with blasphemy, to assure their status as leaders of God's chosen. And yet, they used Rome's currency, and their authority to renounce that prophecy fulfilled; Messiah come.

Did they repent of that? Do they to this day? Or are there Jews they'd consider apostate that have become apostate because they know Messiah was Emmanuel.
They walked to Golgotha and watched their plotting unfold to its end. Having insured that it would not be Jesus released as per the tradition just before Passover, of setting one prisoner free, as the Romans bade it happen time and again year after year. And using their authority over their Jewish congregants to chant for release of a zealot and a thief instead; Barabbas. [The Book of Matthew chapter 27]

Judas repented, returned the silver, and put himself on God's mercies as he hanged himself from a tree. Being a Jew, knowing full well what that meant; cursed is anyone who dies on a tree. The Book of Deuteronomy chapter 22.

I believe he was forgiven. Because God tells us it was Satan within him doing these things. And the man when he realized what he had done was ashamed.
Jesus said from the cross, and this for me is key proof of that, Father forgive them for they know not what they do.
Judas, under Satan's control, did not know what he was doing. But Satan did.

Satan is the son of Perdition destined to destruction. Why do I believe this? Because Jesus chose Judas to be His Disciple. And told Judas in the upper room where the first communion was to take place, go and do what ye must do quickly.
Satan cannot do anything God doesn't permit him to do. The Book of Job chapter 1.
So you are saying that
1) Judas was saved, and that
2) the prophcies regarding Judas refer to Satan?
3) the references to Judas after his death indicate that the prevailing opinion is that he was saved?
 

ForestGreenCook

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Revelation 22:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
The only ones that will hear, thirst and take the water of life freely are those who have already been born again. The natural man (1 Cor 2:14) thinks all of that spiritual stuff is foolishness.
 

Whispered

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The only ones that will hear, thirst and take the water of life freely are those who have already been born again. The natural man (1 Cor 2:14) thinks all of that spiritual stuff is foolishness.
There's this word, whosoever, that sets it all aright. Who ever.
 

Whispered

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So you are saying that
1) Judas was saved, and that
2) the prophcies regarding Judas refer to Satan?
3) the references to Judas after his death indicate that the prevailing opinion is that he was saved?
The Book of Luke chapter 22.
 

cv5

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The only ones that will hear, thirst and take the water of life freely are those who have already been born again. The natural man (1 Cor 2:14) thinks all of that spiritual stuff is foolishness.
A fact that I see clearly demonstrated every single day. Day in and day out.
 

cv5

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The Book of Luke chapter 22.
Judas did not receive Christ. Ever. He did however receive Satan.

Jesus clearly stated that Judas was the "son of perdition".....never used for any other person in Scripture.

Jesus also said that it was better if that man had never been born.

All later reference to Judas indicates he was not saved, never redeemed, but damned. Judas "went to his place". And that place is clearly not heaven.

You do err....
 

cv5

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And in no case is anyone elected for salvation.
Was anyone elected as prophet before they were born? Was any prophet so designated ever known to have fallen away or failed in his commission?
 

fredoheaven

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The only ones that will hear, thirst and take the water of life freely are those who have already been born again. The natural man (1 Cor 2:14) thinks all of that spiritual stuff is foolishness.
O man! Whosoever will may come...that would be simplicity...:)
 
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There's this word, whosoever, that sets it all aright. Who ever.
I mean think about it "whosoever" believes can have eternal life, how does that destroy election?

whosoever believes does not necessary imply that man has the power in himself to believe by nature, it simply means that everyone or whosoever believes may have eternal life.... how does that make election false?

It's a statement from God that everyone who believes will have eternal life, its true!...... BUT that doesn't necessarily imply that man has the power in and of himself to believe.


So everyone who believes the gospel can be saved, amen, and salvation is all of God, there is no contradiction because God is saving his people through faith (the elect).
 

John146

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Was anyone elected as prophet before they were born? Was any prophet so designated ever known to have fallen away or failed in his commission?
Being chosen as a prophet is not the same as being elected under NT salvation.
 

John146

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O man! Whosoever will may come...that would be simplicity...:)
Whosoever is written on the outside of the door, but once you walk in, the other side says congratulations on your election.
 

cv5

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I mean think about it "whosoever" believes can have eternal life, how does that destroy election?

whosoever believes does not necessary imply that man has the power in himself to believe by nature, it simply means that everyone or whosoever believes may have eternal life.... how does that make election false?

It's a statement from God that everyone who believes will have eternal life, its true!...... BUT that doesn't necessarily imply that man has the power in and of himself to believe.
Indeed. In fact the Scriptures are resolute in stating that the natural man DOES NOT possess this power and resource. Only God does.
 

cv5

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Being chosen as a prophet is not the same as being elected under NT salvation.
My point is that they were elect and chosen and commission before birth.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Whosoever is written on the outside of the door, but once you walk in, the other side says congratulations on your election.
The whosoever has stipulations and that is to hear spiritual things, thirst for spiritual things, take of the water (spiritual word) of life freely, which the natural man will not walk in a door that stipulates those spiritual things.