Cain According To James

[Webers.Home]

.
"Be discreet, stay alert. Your adversary, the Devil, prowls about like a
roaring lion, seeking someone to devour; whom resist, steadfast in the
faith." (1Pet 5:8-9)

"the faith" isn't only a collection of beliefs, but includes a collection of
practices, since according to James; a person of faith without practices
might as well have no faith at all.

● Jas 2:17 . . Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

The demon world is a believing world; and likely it consists of better
believers than your average rank and file pew warmer. But the demon world
lacks piety; i.e. they are not devout.

For example: a devout Christian is someone who not only believes; but also
behaves.

● John 14:15 . . If you love me, you will comply with what I command.

● John 14:21 . .Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one
who loves me.

● John 14:23-24 . . If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching . . He who
does not love me will not obey my teaching.

● John 15:14 . .You are my friends if you do what I command you.

Now, assuming for the moment that Cain's offering was correct; then why
didn't God accept it? Well; before God snubbed Cain's offering, He first
snubbed Cain.

● Gen 4:4-5 . .The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on
Cain and his offering he did not look with favor.

The reason given for Cain's rejection is an elephant in the middle of the
room that quite a few Bible students seem content to ignore.

● Gen 4:7 . . If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

Cain was a believer; that much is pretty obvious. But Cain's piety was
flawed, i.e. his personal conduct didn't meet God's standards of behavior, i.e.
Cain wasn't devout.

FAQ: How could Cain possibly know God's standards of behavior without a
written code to inform him?

A: Luke 11:49-51 says that Cain's kid brother Abel was a prophet.

FAQ: What does Cain's rejection have to do with me? I'm a Christian.

A: Cain's association with God was tainted by his conduct. That principle is
a universal axiom; it governs everybody: Christians included; they are not
exempt. When Christians do what's right, they get along with God just fine;
but when they don't do what's right, they get the cold shoulder just the
same as if they were a demon.

● 1John 1:5-6 . .This is the message which we have heard from Him and
declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say
that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not
practice the truth.
_

 

[Deuteronomy]

"the faith" isn't only a collection of beliefs, but includes a collection of practices, since according to James; a person of faith without practices might as well have no faith at all.

Hello Websters.Home, by "the faith", do you mean the Christian faith, or something else (like "saving faith" perhaps)? Also, what things are necessarily included in the required "collection of practices" that you speak of, and how often must we do each of these things to receive God's favor/for us to be considered by Him to be in "the faith"

The demon world is a believing world; and likely it consists of better believers than your average rank and file pew warmer. But the demon world lacks piety; i.e. they are not devout. For example: a devout Christian is someone who not only believes; but also behaves.

While I do not necessarily disagree with what you just said, from a certain POV, your linking of the term "believer" with "demon" makes me wonder what you mean, IOW, what is your definition of a "believer"

Finally, while I agree with you that the demons are not pious, what about these folks?

Matthew 7​

22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’​

23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’​

What is their problem? Unlike the demons, their "collection of practices" makes them seem VERY devout, does it not?

There are a couple of other things in your OP that I'd like to ask you about, but this is enough for now.

Thanks!

~Deut

 

[Deuteronomy]

Cain was a believer; that much is pretty obvious. But Cain's piety was flawed, i.e. his personal conduct didn't meet God's standards of behavior, i.e.Cain wasn't devout.

Hello again Webers.Home, you say that Cain was obviously a believer. Why do you believe that's true/what evidence do we have that he was (I realize that this may touch on what your definition of a true "believer" is)

FAQ: How could Cain possibly know God's standards of behavior without a written code to inform him? A: Luke 11:49-51 says that Cain's kid brother Abel was a prophet.

Why do you believe that a "prophet" was required for Cain to know what God expected of him (please take note of the conversations in these passages, Genesis 4:6-7, Genesis 4:9-12 & Genesis 4:13-15) (I included them below, just FYI)

FAQ: What does Cain's rejection have to do with me? I'm a Christian.

A: Cain's association with God was tainted by his conduct. That principle is
a universal axiom; it governs everybody: Christians included; they are not
exempt. When Christians do what's right, they get along with God just fine;
but when they don't do what's right, they get the cold shoulder just the
same as if they were a demon.

What do you mean by God giving the "cold shoulder" to Christians .. as if they were demons

Thanks

~Deut

Genesis 4​

6 The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?​

7 “If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”​

8 Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.​

9 Then the LORD said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?” And he said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”​

10 He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to Me from the ground.​

11 “Now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand.​

12 “When you cultivate the ground, it will no longer yield its strength to you; you will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth.”​

13 Cain said to the LORD, “My punishment is too great to bear!​

14 “Behold, You have driven me this day from the face of the ground; and from Your face I will be hidden, and I will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”​

15 So the LORD said to him, “Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold.” And the LORD appointed a sign for Cain, so that no one finding him would slay him.​

​

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I think this message is for this thread.

 

[dcontroversal]

.
"Be discreet, stay alert. Your adversary, the Devil, prowls about like a
roaring lion, seeking someone to devour; whom resist, steadfast in the
faith." (1Pet 5:8-9)

"the faith" isn't only a collection of beliefs, but includes a collection of
practices, since according to James; a person of faith without practices
might as well have no faith at all.

● Jas 2:17 . . Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

The demon world is a believing world; and likely it consists of better
believers than your average rank and file pew warmer. But the demon world
lacks piety; i.e. they are not devout.

For example: a devout Christian is someone who not only believes; but also
behaves.

● John 14:15 . . If you love me, you will comply with what I command.

● John 14:21 . .Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one
who loves me.

● John 14:23-24 . . If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching . . He who
does not love me will not obey my teaching.

● John 15:14 . .You are my friends if you do what I command you.

Now, assuming for the moment that Cain's offering was correct; then why
didn't God accept it? Well; before God snubbed Cain's offering, He first
snubbed Cain.

● Gen 4:4-5 . .The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on
Cain and his offering he did not look with favor.

The reason given for Cain's rejection is an elephant in the middle of the
room that quite a few Bible students seem content to ignore.

● Gen 4:7 . . If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

Cain was a believer; that much is pretty obvious. But Cain's piety was
flawed, i.e. his personal conduct didn't meet God's standards of behavior, i.e.
Cain wasn't devout.

FAQ: How could Cain possibly know God's standards of behavior without a
written code to inform him?

A: Luke 11:49-51 says that Cain's kid brother Abel was a prophet.

FAQ: What does Cain's rejection have to do with me? I'm a Christian.

A: Cain's association with God was tainted by his conduct. That principle is
a universal axiom; it governs everybody: Christians included; they are not
exempt. When Christians do what's right, they get along with God just fine;
but when they don't do what's right, they get the cold shoulder just the
same as if they were a demon.

● 1John 1:5-6 . .This is the message which we have heard from Him and
declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say
that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not
practice the truth.
_

Faith and BLOOD....and Jude compares false teachers to Cain that offered the works of his hands...as do most supposed Christian religions on the planet!

 

[posthuman]

A: Luke 11:49-51 says that Cain's kid brother Abel was a prophet.

​

Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:​

That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;​

From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.​

(Luke 11:49-51)
​

Cain did the same thing as those who killed the prophets.
the prophets proclaim the word of God.
all we know of Abel it that he kept flocks, that he offered of the firstlings and of the fat thereof, and that he did so by faith.
tending flocks, giving to God of the first, and having faith testify of the word of God.

 

[Guojing]

Hello again Webers.Home, you say that Cain was obviously a believer. Why do you believe that's true/what evidence do we have that he was (I realize that this may touch on what your definition of a true "believer" is)

It may be difficult for us in this age to imagine now but during Genesis time, God was talking to people all the time and people could hear his voice.

When God was speaking to Cain all the time, before and after the latter killed Abel, Cain didn't even flinch when he told God "Am I my brother's keeper"? Imagine saying that to God after he just killed his brother.

So yes, Cain obviously believe there is a God. Its very difficult for him not to.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Cain was a believer; that much is pretty obvious.

Since the Bible says that he was of that Wicked One (Satan) then the opposite is obvious. He was clearly NOT a believer.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Cain obviously believe there is a God. Its very difficult for him not to.

Hello Guojing, that's true, both of Cain, and even more so of the demons, but is it possible to categorize either the demons or Cain as "believers" on that basis alone? (I don't believe that it is because that term means FAR more than simply, "I believe there is a God").

Thanks!

~Deut

 

[Guojing]

Hello Guojing, that's true, both of Cain, and even more so of the demons, but is it possible to categorize either the demons or Cain as "believers" on that basis alone? (I don't believe that it is because that term means FAR more than simply, "I believe there is a God").

Thanks!

~Deut

Fair enough, I will leave it to Weber to define for us what he actually meant when he used the term "believer" then.

 

[Magenta]

Finally, while I agree with you that the demons are not pious, what about these folks?

Matthew 7​

22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’​

23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’​

What is their problem? Unlike the demons, their "collection of practices" makes them seem VERY devout, does it not?

How does one interpret practicing lawlessness as being the equivalence of devout?

 

[Webers.Home]

.
● Heb 11:4 . . By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did.

I'm going to edit the wording of that just a bit to bring out an important
point.

"By faith Abel offered God a sacrifice"

The missing word "better" is a modifier; which serves to show that both
men's offerings were sacrifices; only the quality of Abel's sacrifice was
superior to the quality of Cain's.

Sacrifices should never be assumed always lethal and/or bloody. Take for
example:

● Rom 12:1 . . I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your
bodies as living sacrifices

● Heb 13:15-17 . .Through Him then, let us continually offer up a sacrifice of
praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that give thanks to His name. And do
not neglect doing good and sharing; for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

Heb 11:4 also testifies that Abel's offerings were gifts. The very same Greek
word is used at Matt 2:11 to categorize the treasures that the wise men left
with baby Jesus.

Their gifts were not sin offerings; they were tributes: defined by Webster's
as (1) something given or contributed voluntarily as due or deserved
especially a gift or service showing respect, gratitude, or affection and (2)
something (such as material evidence or a formal attestation) that indicates
the worth, virtue, or effectiveness of the one in question

In other words "gifts" are acts of worship; which is the primary reason why
Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate birthdays.
_

 

[MattforJesus]

Since the Bible says that he was of that Wicked One (Satan) then the opposite is obvious. He was clearly NOT a believer.

Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Gen 4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

Cain would of had to be a believer because he brought an offering unto the LORD, and had a conversation with God.

1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth(points out their sins).

I believe Cain was a believer but he did not depart from wickedness like he should so he was of the devil, which this post is about all the people who claim Christ who hold unto sin which the Bible says they are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, but they think they are still right with God.

And there are millions of them that hold unto sin, and say they cannot abstain from sin, and enjoy the world as the world enjoys it, and love money and material things enjoying their wants when God only blesses us with our needs, and then think all they need is faith and they are saved, and their lifestyle does not matter.

But Cain is an example that the lifestyle does matter for he gave an offering unto the LORD, had a conversation with Him, but his works were evil, and how many people claiming Christ are engaging in sins and they think they are alright.

Which the majority of them are doing that and they think faith will save them.

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Paul said love is greater than faith, and faith works by love, and love does not think an evil thought, and does not sin by the Spirit, and if they preach God blesses with money and material things for their wants then they erred from the faith, so Paul said the same thing as James who pointed out the same and said without works their faith is dead, for Paul said without charity, works in action, they are nothing and have erred from the faith, and then John says the same thing as them that the love of God does not dwell in them.

It seems like people want to dismiss the lifestyle so they can enjoy sin, and think they have an excuse by saying they have faith.

 

[Blik]

Cain believed in the Lord, and Cain believed that the Lord asked for sacrifice for sins. God told Cain that blood was required and Cain used his own ideas about what was required rather than believing God. God wants us to trust in Him and His ways, not decide for ourselves. We belong to God, not the world.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I believe Cain was a believer but he did not depart from wickedness like he should so he was of the devil, which this post is about all the people who claim Christ who hold unto sin which the Bible says they are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, but they think they are still right with God.

You are mixing up two separate issues: (1) who is an unbeliever and who is not and (2) whether Cain was a lover of pleasure or a lover of hard work.

1. YOU FAILED TO QUOTE THE MOST CRITICAL VERSES
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. 12 Not as Cain, who was of that Wicked One [the Devil], and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Did you get that? Satan had either taken possession of Cain, or heavily influenced his life. Thus Cain was "of that Wicked One". NOW THIS COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE SAID OF A BELIEVER. The Bible says that the Devil was a murderer from the beginning, and here is the proof. The first murder on earth was committed by Cain under the influence of Satan.

2. CAIN WAS NOT A LOVER OF PLEASURE. QUITE THE OPPOSITE
Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

Given the fact that Adam's disobedience brought a curse upon the ground and anything produced would be by hard labor -- "the sweat of thy brow" -- Cain could only have brought of the fruit of the ground after some very hard work. Therefore he could not have been a lover of pleasure (taken out of context).

Cain's real problem was that HE DID NOT BELIEVE GOD. Therefore he was not a righteous man. However, he believed the Devil, therefore he was a wicked man. The Devil probably instigated him to ignore God's demands for a whole burnt offering as a sin offering (which meant that he would have to go to Abel to obtain a lamb (or lambs) without spot and without blemish. But the Devil told him that the fruit of the ground should suffice, since it represented his hard labor (salvation by works).

As you can see, you are completely off base with your conclusions.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Cain believed in the Lord, and Cain believed that the Lord asked for sacrifice for sins. God told Cain that blood was required and Cain used his own ideas about what was required rather than believing God.

Which means that he DID NOT believe in the Lord or believe God. That contradicts what you started out with.

 

[Deuteronomy]

How does one interpret practicing lawlessness as being the equivalence of devout?

Hello Mangeta, my use of v22-23 in this particular case has to do with the argument being made by the folks in v22, and a point that I'm laboring to make to Weber, not a proper exegesis of the entire passage. I'm also waiting/hoping to hear from Weber before continuing.

~Deut

 

[Webers.Home]

.
I'm persuaded in my own mind that the Cain and Abel incident is unrelated
to the plan of salvation as per Christ on the cross rather, it's a lesson about
worship, i.e. church attendance.

Take for example Isa 1:11-20. Moses' people were offering all the
covenanted sacrifices, they were praying up a storm, and observing all the
God-given feasts and holy days. He rejected all of it, even though He himself
required it, because the people's personal conduct was unbecoming.

● Prv 15:8 . .The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to Yhvh.

Perhaps the classic example is the one below.

● Ps 51:16 . .You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not
take pleasure in burnt offerings.

When David wrote that; he had only just committed the capital crimes of
adultery and premeditated murder. There was just no way that God was
going to accept his sacrifices and offerings on top of that; and David knew it
too.

The principle shows up again in Jesus' teachings.

● Matt 9:13 . . Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy and not
sacrifice.

Some folk honestly believe that Christ's statement, taken from Hosea 6:6,
practically repealed the entire God-given book of Leviticus. But that's not
what either Hosea or Jesus were saying. They meant that God much prefers
that people be civil to each other rather than religious to their fingertips.

In other words; an ungracious person's lack of things like sympathy,
patience, tolerance, lenience, helpfulness, pity, and common courtesy
causes God to reject their worship just as thoroughly and bluntly as He
rejected Cain's.

The principle didn't go away. It's still the Lord's way of doing business with
people; including Christians.

● 1John 1:5-7 . . God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that
we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the
truth: but if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one
with another.

It's likely a foregone conclusion that God is deeply insulted when people
whose conduct is unbecoming all during the week come to church on Sunday
actually thinking He's glad to see them show up for some quality time
together.
_

 

[Guojing]

.
I'm persuaded in my own mind that the Cain and Abel incident is unrelated
to the plan of salvation as per Christ on the cross rather, it's a lesson about
worship, i.e. church attendance.

Take for example Isa 1:11-20. Moses' people were offering all the
covenanted sacrifices, they were praying up a storm, and observing all the
God-given feasts and holy days. He rejected all of it, even though He himself
required it, because the people's personal conduct was unbecoming.

● Prv 15:8 . .The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to Yhvh.

Perhaps the classic example is the one below.

● Ps 51:16 . .You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not
take pleasure in burnt offerings.

When David wrote that; he had only just committed the capital crimes of
adultery and premeditated murder. There was just no way that God was
going to accept his sacrifices and offerings on top of that; and David knew it
too.

The principle shows up again in Jesus' teachings.

● Matt 9:13 . . Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy and not
sacrifice.

Some folk honestly believe that Christ's statement, taken from Hosea 6:6,
practically repealed the entire God-given book of Leviticus. But that's not
what either Hosea or Jesus were saying. They meant that God much prefers
that people be civil to each other rather than religious to their fingertips.

In other words; an ungracious person's lack of things like sympathy,
patience, tolerance, lenience, helpfulness, pity, and common courtesy
causes God to reject their worship just as thoroughly and bluntly as He
rejected Cain's.

The principle didn't go away. It's still the Lord's way of doing business with
people; including Christians.

● 1John 1:5-7 . . God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that
we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the
truth: but if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one
with another.

It's likely a foregone conclusion that God is deeply insulted when people
whose conduct is unbecoming all during the week come to church on Sunday
actually thinking He's glad to see them show up for some quality time
together.
_

Do you want to clarify what you actually meant when you said "Cain was a believer"?

 

[TLC209]

Cain believed in the Lord, and Cain believed that the Lord asked for sacrifice for sins. God told Cain that blood was required and Cain used his own ideas about what was required rather than believing God. God wants us to trust in Him and His ways, not decide for ourselves. We belong to God, not the world.

Where did you read all this. Please provide scripture to all of this?? What translation is it in? Please... just stop..